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Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
BethesdaLove said:
BN, are you by any chance a future vidya game developer?

Oh Frith no. Fuck this industry with a ten-foot pole. It's a cesspool.

BethesdaLove said:
IP is different though because technically its not physical anymore.

So? That in and of itself is not a complete argument.

FTR said:
Note: I WANTZ FREE STUFF is not gonna cut it.
BethesdaLove said:
Morally, there can be a lot of different justifications for this method depending on the morals you choose.
COMMUNISM FOR EVERYONE!

Well done.

Harold said:
Hear me, brave Brother None! I strongly request that if you feel the need to justify your jewish cocksucking, to at least put some effort into creating an excuse that stands up to even the basest scrutiny. This 'I get my games legally' high-horse faggotry nonsense is kind of boring

Well, I don't know how I can keep up against these kind of well-rounded arguments, but somehow I continue to trudge on.
 

Sceptic

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
10,871
Divinity: Original Sin
Carceri said:
FeelTheRads said:
I wonder how a PDF is more convenient that a printed manual.
You can use Ctrl + F
I would just love it if games provided BOTH. How hard can it be, if you already have a manual in the box, to also include the PDF? IIRC a few games do this (NWN2 was the latest? DAO did it but the PDF was downloadable from the Bioware website). Then I get my nice* paper manual, and the easy-to-look-through PDF if I'm looking for a specific sentence/paragraph and don't know in which section it is.

* provided the manual isn't a piece of shit made of toilet paper.
 

Wang Lo

Novice
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
68
Brother None said:
markec said:
Should they all just give shit for free, or does a game becomes free for all the moment its developers ceases to exist?

Pretty much, yeah. Publishers are greedy jews. What right have they to interpret a contract in which they invest all the money and carry all the risk in return of rights in perpetuity as actually meaning in perpetuity?

FILTHY THIEVES :x

I can't quite summon up the massive rage some people feel towards gog but there are some good points made here, or mainly all your points are just stupid ones that make no sense.

You show you don't understand the basic ideas of what ip is about then you go onto a ridiculous rage against people who at least have one foot in reality.

Most people never actually produce a goodamn thing in their lives, so when you do produce something you realize just what a load of work it is to do so. So yes people should have that work protected but it's to protect the people doing the actual work not so some slimebags can get a permanent monopoly or brand saturation that stifles out people who actually produce something.

Because the basis of communist revolution and of fascist revolution and french revolution is pretty similar. It goes along the lines of hey we have these motherfuckers (respectively landowners, bankers, and aristocrats) who have sewn up the market much in the fashion publishers have, but meanwhile we do all the work, and not only is there a great useless proletariat but much worse are the fuckers on top who control everything absolutely. So even though I grow 20 tons of wheat a year my kids are shoeless! What to do? Well answer that came to mind in all three cases was let's just kill these fuckers once and for all. Of course then you just get some new fuckers to come along, and then eventually they get killed off just like how the caesars had such a high death rate, especially the more rapacious and stupid they were.

So now we get the same thing here in ameriduh with the financial institutions where they are sort of like princes who don't actually do a fucking thing, in fact they are quite obstructive to getting anything done. Publishing companies are pretty much the same. They are pretty much greedily grasping for each dribble they can get out of the biggest market possible without caring about any sort of niche so of course only one publisher can win the casual game market.

But people like you play along with the system and even encourage it. No one needs to have 75 year copyrights on anything, let alone on PC games that don't even work on modern computers without 600 steps. No one needs for infinite credit to be given out either because credit doesn't produce anything but inflation in the long run, it should be kept to a moderate level not used to run up the economy at election time, and certainly not to be dictating policy of government as the creditors here are doing now.

So yes you are another serious internet person who at the core is just a jackass who should shut the fuck up already.

Buying from gog gets you more or less a guarantee that the game will work and be virus free so I see no need to hate on them needlessly, and maybe it kicks money back to publishers which in some way might (but effectively won't) fund further development of games that are similar to what was made, but abandonware does have plenty of precedent in the form of squatter's rights. The idea of land ownership is justified in the sense someone is actually making use of the land, developing it and benefiting from it. It used to be that large percentages of entire countries were owned by a couple companies just so they can speculate against futre value and maybe grow more pineapples on it. Now this ownership comes from exploitation or outright conquest in the first place, so how can you justify that half a country is starving while 80% of the country's prime farmland is lying fallow and owned by people who gained it by dubious means? Well, you can't, dumbass, but that is exactly what you are trying to do. And squatters do have rights just for the same reason, because the law is there to ensure that people are benefited not so a tiny percentage of the populance can consume greedily like pigs just to stamp out the other guy, which is exactly why pigs eat, not for sustenance but to starve the competition, which is exactly how bullies operate, it's not a game it's about taking out competition for resources but guess what that behavior is just what the laws of civilization are there to prevent.

So go back to your little anal retentive corner of the internet and blab there for a while.
 

Antihero

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
859
Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family? And, what if your family don't like bread? They like... vidya games?

Ludicrously extended copyrights is one thing that's wrong with the world, but complaining about it on a game about a decade old is sort of asinine, and how many who complain about it would still feel justified in pirating something that just came out a day ago? Personally, I don't especially care how you get PS:T or older games, and let's say more of the original devs got a better cut of the profits - that'd be nice, but I don't see any mass movements to pirate the game and send a cheque to the devs - not that it would be sustainable for future games relying on a publisher. So how much do most people really give a shit anyway beyond getting something for free?
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I demand dev's paypal accounts!

Let us end this hypocrisy now brothers!
Open your wallets and shower our goods upon those deserving!
 

Wang Lo

Novice
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
68
Morkar said:
Wang Lo said:
Funny random revolution speech

The French Revolution as justification to pirate videogames? :lol:

As a software guy I don't encourage piracy, but anyone who rails against abandonware is probably not someone who should open their mouth in an ip discussion.

GOG also is helping people to "pirate" abandonware in many cases, and they are stealing the cracks made by other people for their own commercial game. So you can't really say supporting gog is fighting piracy it's the stupidest argument someone could ever come up with. For some titles there is legitimate ownership of IP address with monies paid out by gog, but that is a small fraction of their selection to my knowledge.

The idea of ownership extending forever to people who had no creation of the product is also a joke, and as some here have pointed out the laws of coyright come from a situation much different than how software is made. Publishers also have long since locked up books so that it's basically waves of fads and copies of the occasional breakthrough book.

This is not the most ideal situation, and obviously what the public deserves is to be served and what the producers deserve is to be protected, but without descending into saying lets kill these jewgold motherfuckers maybe we should have ip laws designed with these goals in mind and not with allowing monopolies and brand saturation to be the norm. Do we really need to have another super marios brother game? Or the EA 2020 version of every game, just relreleasing the same thing with some new graphics? Is there some possible reason music recordings from 110 years ago should belong to some corporation and not the public domain? Even a toddler should be able to reason out that ip laws are out of control and just getting worse. I am not for piracy either, if everyone pirated all software I would be working at mc donalds, but brother none is one of the dumbest sheep around.
 

Antihero

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
859
SCO said:
I demand dev's paypal accounts!

Let us end this hypocrisy now brothers!
Open your wallets and shower our goods upon those deserving!
Obviously it's their own fault for not going indie then, like all the beloved classic RPG games of yore, so many moons ago.

But really, I'd like to see more indie stuff take off - say like Minecraft did, and reportedly spurned Valve wanting to be its pimp - but even a lot of the smaller indie games still require enough of a financial investment on somebody's part.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Carceri said:
FeelTheRads said:
I wonder how a PDF is more convenient that a printed manual.

You can use Ctrl + F

That would be true, if they indeed scanned the manual themselves and not get them from replacementdocs.com, because then maybe they would be all scanned with text recognition so you can indeed use Ctrl+F
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
I can not make much of your incoherent ramblings, Wang Lo.

The idea of ownership extending forever to people who had no creation of the product is also a joke

But I do have a simple question: do you acknowledge that by definition having full ownership entails a right to transfer full ownership, and that full ownership is not subsequently limited simply because it has been transferred? Or, in other words, do you realize that in a structure where they could not offer full ownership of their work to their employer, developers can not be paid?

Antihero said:
Obviously it's their own fault for not going indie

Obviously. When I sign a contract with a publisher stating the publisher holds full ownership of my product once complete and in return he pays my wages, how is it not my choice, or as you put it, fault that I do not get paid in perpetuity? Full ownership is inherent of creation, but perpetual rights are not inherent of full ownerships, not when I choose to transfer them.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
"choose" has a very particular definition in markets without unions.
 

Archibald

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,869
As a software guy I don't encourage piracy, but anyone who rails against abandonware is probably not someone who should open their mouth in an ip discussion.

Most important thing when you`re babling bullshit is to announce that you`re somehow "close" to the problem so you know what you`re talking about.

Do we really need to have another super marios brother game? Or the EA 2020 version of every game, just relreleasing the same thing with some new graphics?

But what this has to do with anything i can`t understand.
 

Morkar Left

Guest
Wang Lo said:
Morkar said:
Wang Lo said:
Funny random revolution speech

The French Revolution as justification to pirate videogames? :lol:

As a software guy I don't encourage piracy, but anyone who rails against abandonware is probably not someone who should open their mouth in an ip discussion.

GOG also is helping people to "pirate" abandonware in many cases, and they are stealing the cracks made by other people for their own commercial game. So you can't really say supporting gog is fighting piracy it's the stupidest argument someone could ever come up with. For some titles there is legitimate ownership of IP address with monies paid out by gog, but that is a small fraction of their selection to my knowledge.

The idea of ownership extending forever to people who had no creation of the product is also a joke, and as some here have pointed out the laws of coyright come from a situation much different than how software is made. Publishers also have long since locked up books so that it's basically waves of fads and copies of the occasional breakthrough book.

This is not the most ideal situation, and obviously what the public deserves is to be served and what the producers deserve is to be protected, but without descending into saying lets kill these jewgold motherfuckers maybe we should have ip laws designed with these goals in mind and not with allowing monopolies and brand saturation to be the norm. Do we really need to have another super marios brother game? Or the EA 2020 version of every game, just relreleasing the same thing with some new graphics? Is there some possible reason music recordings from 110 years ago should belong to some corporation and not the public domain? Even a toddler should be able to reason out that ip laws are out of control and just getting worse. I am not for piracy either, if everyone pirated all software I would be working at mc donalds, but brother none is one of the dumbest sheep around.

As a software guy you should know that when you develop your own software, you have the copyright and can do with it whatever you want.

If you develop software for someone else who told you to do it and pays you wages for he has the rights because he is your employer.

If you decide to sell your copyrights to someone else than you get money from him and he has the rights now. If this is a wise decision you have to decide for yourself.

And for gog using cracks and patches from others; I don´t know if they pay them something for it or give credits IF they use such things. It would be nice but is in no way necessary because every crack or even fanpatch that modifies the code is illegal by default without the consent of the copyrightowner.

And I don´t see what this has to do with abandonware. Abandonware is when nobody of the copyrightowners gives a fuck about making money with the software anymore. Either they don´t care or are not aware of the possibility to still earn money is irrelevant.But if they decide to make use of their rights (by making a distribution agreement with gog) it should get respected.

If you decide to pirate games that´s your decision, but don´t put a silly "honorable" justification into it. If you pirate it´s just because you can, nothing more.
 

BethesdaLove

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
1,998
BethesdaLove said:
IP is different though because technically its not physical anymore.

So? That in and of itself is not a complete argument.

FTR said:
Note: I WANTZ FREE STUFF is not gonna cut it.
BethesdaLove said:
Morally, there can be a lot of different justifications for this method depending on the morals you choose.
COMMUNISM FOR EVERYONE!

Well done.

Well done reading what I wrote, my superior bro.
You wanted an argument that stands up to economic and legal scrutiny.
I presented you one and added a sarcastic line in capslock at the end.
Now you want a moral one? Which morals? Utilitarianism?

I will repeat what I said.
Economically, short copyright forces the content creator to create more (eg work), reinvest and not sit on whatever. Grow or die. No morals here.

Legal argument is fucking nonexistent. Its even more random than the moral argument. Iran stones women for divorce. YAY! We have 100+ years of copyright. YAY.

Morally, a corporation has no moral rights to intellectual property whatsoever since it just funds it and the creators sell it to them.
A single creator gives back to the civilization that gave him material to write about and bought his stuff in the 20 years of his copyright.

If pharma had IP laws like entertainment industry you would be still drinking aspirin to fight aids and paying for it half of your months income.

Btw, Viagra expires 2013 but Mikey Mouse is still around and drawing something similar will put you on shaky legal ground...
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Economically, short copyright forces the content creator to create more (eg work), reinvest and not sit on whatever. Grow or die. No morals here.

I'd actually want to hear a counter-argument to this from someone who knows some economy.

Legal argument is fucking nonexistent. Its even more random than the moral argument. Iran stones women for divorce. YAY! We have 100+ years of copyright. YAY.

Not sure where Sister None is going with the legal thing, but it may be for those who think that GOG is breaking the law by selling abandonware and/or think abandonware is legal.
 

Morkar Left

Guest
BethesdaLove said:
BethesdaLove said:
IP is different though because technically its not physical anymore.

So? That in and of itself is not a complete argument.

FTR said:
Note: I WANTZ FREE STUFF is not gonna cut it.
BethesdaLove said:
Morally, there can be a lot of different justifications for this method depending on the morals you choose.
COMMUNISM FOR EVERYONE!

Well done.

Well done reading what I wrote, my superior bro.
You wanted an argument that stands up to economic and legal scrutiny.
I presented you one and added a sarcastic line in capslock at the end.
Now you want a moral one? Which morals? Utilitarianism?

I will repeat what I said.
Economically, short copyright forces the content creator to create more (eg work), reinvest and not sit on whatever. Grow or die. No morals here.

Legal argument is fucking nonexistent. Its even more random than the moral argument. Iran stones women for divorce. YAY! We have 100+ years of copyright. YAY.

Morally, a corporation has no moral rights to intellectual property whatsoever since it just funds it and the creators sell it to them.
A single creator gives back to the civilization that gave him material to write about and bought his stuff in the 20 years of his copyright.

If pharma had IP laws like entertainment industry you would be still drinking aspirin to fight aids and paying for it half of your months income.

Btw, Viagra expires 2013 but Mikey Mouse is still around and drawing something similar will put you on shaky legal ground...

Comparing apples with oranges. Pharma-industry has copyrights to actually get their huge investments back they put into developing new meds. Without copyright some cheapass chinese would just legally copy (steal) the formula and profit from it without doing anything for the invention. Without the copyright the pharmaindustry would indeed just produce some cheap pills in various colors.
Nobody stops you to develop something better than viagra btw. It´s already available.
And nobody stops you from developing your own cartoon-mouse. It´s just not permitted to use Mickey Mouse in your cartoonstories. There a several good reasons for this too. Eg you haven´t invented it and you lazy bum would just take advantage of the work Walt Disney has done. Or you could use Mickey Mouse in a porn cartoon to literally rape the franchise...

And I can´t blame Walt Disney to pass his copyright of Mickey Mouse (his lifework) to his children. Seems natural to me. Of course he could have just sold the copyright to someone else ;)
 

Archibald

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,869
Economically, short copyright forces the content creator to create more (eg work), reinvest and not sit on whatever. Grow or die. No morals here.

What exactly is the difference "economically" betwean making 10 rehashed shit games and 10 new great games if they`ll sell same amount, i`ll pay same taxes and so on? Furthermore if i`ll have to reinvest on every shit and won`t be able to go to my cash cow then that means that it`s highly possible that i`ll go bankrupt, less taxes and work places for my country.

I admit that economy isn`t my strong point so i don`t understand how economy works here, could you clarify it a bit?
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
FeelTheRads said:
Economically, short copyright forces the content creator to create more (eg work), reinvest and not sit on whatever. Grow or die. No morals here.
I'd actually want to hear a counter-argument to this from someone who knows some economy.

It would work, but I doubt it would be preferable. Extended IP rights are based on the idea of adding draw for people to produce these works. It's not impossible for artists to work with shorter IP concepts, but it'd primarily help the consumer - who don't need it - and not the consumer - who do.

What's more, when it comes to the gaming industry, long-sellers are less relevant to studios like EA or Activision-Vivendi (though Blizzard thrives on it), they guys you would primarily be hurting with this concept would be indie developers (of niche games, no so much of casuals), who absolutely need long sellers to have any realistic long-term tenability.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Well, yeah, that's how it sounds to me too... that we would only have even more focus on flashy games to ensure quick sales.

And the focus is already on that kind of games and people are still buying them like crazy even with these copyright laws.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
BethesdaLove said:
Morally, a corporation has no moral rights to intellectual property whatsoever since it just funds it and the creators sell it to them.
A single creator gives back to the civilization that gave him material to write about and bought his stuff in the 20 years of his copyright.

If pharma had IP laws like entertainment industry you would be still drinking aspirin to fight aids and paying for it half of your months income.

Btw, Viagra expires 2013 but Mikey Mouse is still around and drawing something similar will put you on shaky legal ground...
Let's not compare entertainment IPs with the" pharma" stuff. There is an obvious difference between denying other companies a very specific, I'd say, unique knowledge that can save/cure/help people and denying some talentless hack the right to rip off someone else's cartoon or game setting?

Do we fucking need 10 more studios drawing milking Mikey or would we rather encourage people to come up with their own shit? Would the gaming world be better off if everyone could do awful Forgotten Realms games with Drizzt and Elminster?
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Vault Dweller said:
Would the gaming world be better off if everyone could do awful Forgotten Realms games with Drizzt and Elminster?
Are you saying people don't this anyway? You can't play an FRPG online without running into at least 5 Drizzt clones within a minute, whether they are named Drizzt, or Drizzt-in-all-but-name.
 

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