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Torment PST - "shit combat"? Why?

Bester

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PST is based on AD&D. BGs are based on AD&D. How does PST have "shit combat", while BG has okay combat? I've been reading this condox consensus for 10 years. Explain it to me.

I don't agree that PST has shit combat. It could do with more itemisation and spells that add tactical depth (i.e. protection layers, debuffs, dispells). And remove the anime effects from spells. Other than that, it's 90% there. How bad can AD&D combat really be?
 

Bester

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It has bad encounter design.
What's a good vs bad encounter design in the IE engine?

There's enemies. You see them, they see you, shit goes down. So there's no pre-fight positioning. There's no smart usage of environment. How do you design a GOOD encounter?
 

Bester

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why pretend any combat encounter from Kurst and on isn't a tedious spam of enemies
I don't see what this has to do with combat itself. If the system is right, it's right throughout the entire game.

It's like the combat sports: it's always kicks and punches. Yet you're excited about some fights, and couldn't give less fuck about others. It's the story behind those fights that matters to the audience.

What you're describing AFTER KURST is the lack of motivation for combat. The story is failing to get you to kill those mobs, not the combat system.
 

Wunderbar

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How do you design a GOOD encounter?
you come up with enemies that have interesting abilities.

Other than Strahan the necromancer, Trias, and a puzzlebox cenobite, every enemy in the game is some street punk who drops a cheap copper ring upon death.
 
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d1r

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I feel like that combat in a game where you read and explore for 85% of the time is just annoying. It's like those action hacknslays that make you solve fucking timed puzzles (you know which one I am talking about) inbetween the actual core gameplay that is killing stuff. Combat in PST felt like a really bad afterthought and soured the overall experience.
 
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Thac0

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
It has bad encounter design.
Bad encounter design is one thing, there are way too many passages where just one or two enemy types are spammed against you, the slums, the sewers, cainhurst, there are more passages with bad encounter design than there are ones with decent encounters.

It doesn't help either that you barely have any room in customising your party. Due to the jrpg-esque fixed classes and fixed weapon categories the only real choice you get is how to build TNO and who to take with you, a choice that only becomes relevant in the late game once all slots are full.
Icewind Dale or BG has spammy passages aswell, but they are much more tolerable because at least you can still see your well tuned self made party in action as an efficient murder machine to clear the waves or cobolds, orks, trolls or whatever.
 

Bester

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So far, I accept:
- lack of mobs variety
- lack of spells variety for those mobs
- lack of itemisation variety

It doesn't mean the combat system is shit. It means there's a disproportion of TEXT content vs MECHANICAL content.

It's surprising that no modders ever sought to fix that.
 

Maxie

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why pretend any combat encounter from Kurst and on isn't a tedious spam of enemies
I don't see what this has to do with combat itself. If the system is right, it's right throughout the entire game.

It's like the combat sports: it's always kicks and punches. Yet you're excited about some fights, and couldn't give less fuck about others. It's the story behind those fights that matters to the audience.

What you're describing AFTER KURST is the lack of motivation for combat. The story is failing to get you to kill those mobs, not the combat system.
you yourself said that it could do with more itemisation and more varied spells, and I agree - otherwise it's a really unsatisfying and absurdly limited hack & slash with literally nothing interesting going on build-wise, tactics-wise, there's nothing there to flaunt a well-designed party member against (not like you can design them anyway)
 
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Thac0

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
So far, I accept:
- lack of mobs variety
- lack of spells variety for those mobs
- lack of itemisation variety

It doesn't mean the combat system is shit. It means there's a disproportion of TEXT content vs MECHANICAL content.

It's surprising that no modders ever sought to fix that.
There hasn't been a crpg yet which has exceptional mechanical content and text content. Usually when you try to do both, both turn to shit. I wonder if there is a natural limit to how much effort you can put into both, as to not fatigue the player. As an example I never saw anyone ever discuss Pillars of Eternity's story, which tried to be both an rpg with deep mechanical content and a deep story, because noone even bothered to read the story after slugging through the combat and character progression.

It may just be that great combat and great text gameplay are antithetical to a degree, at least in the context of a crpg.
 

Maxie

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So far, I accept:
- lack of mobs variety
- lack of spells variety for those mobs
- lack of itemisation variety

It doesn't mean the combat system is shit. It means there's a disproportion of TEXT content vs MECHANICAL content.

It's surprising that no modders ever sought to fix that.
bester, these things comprise combat
are you waiting for someone to tell you the sheer fight programming is bad? then I could as well, the pathfinding is horrible and the animations hardly correspond to attack windows lol
 

Brancaleone

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So far, I accept:
- lack of mobs variety
- lack of spells variety for those mobs
- lack of itemisation variety

It doesn't mean the combat system is shit. It means there's a disproportion of TEXT content vs MECHANICAL content.

It's surprising that no modders ever sought to fix that.
- lack of challenge
- lack of party variety
- companions are stuck in a mono-dimensional combat role
- kiting is incredibly easy to pull off

Overall, you solve combat by leveling up through quest experience.
 

Lady Error

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Strap Yourselves In
Other than Strahan the necromancer, Trias, and a puzzlebox cenobite, every enemy in the game is some street punk who drops a cheap copper ring.
The brain rats getting much more powerful in groups were awesome.

Speaking of which, is it actually possible to fight the Lady of Pain in PST?
 

Brancaleone

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Other than Strahan the necromancer, Trias, and a puzzlebox cenobite, every enemy in the game is some street punk who drops a cheap copper ring.
The brain rats getting much more powerful in groups were awesome.

Speaking of which, is it actually possible to fight the Lady of Pain in PST?
As a concept, yes. As an encounter, you rush them and autoattack as fast as possible (as with anything else) so that they can use only low level spells, if any at all.

I think you only see the Lady of Pain in cutscenes.

[edit] After checking, it looks like there are unused sprites in the game files:
Lady.gif
 

Serus

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That's all there is to combat for it to be "fine" for someone: "pretty animations". You heard it not from me. How low Codex(ers) have fallen.
Don't get me wrong, I like(ed) enemies getting melted by plasma and so on in Fallouts but those didn't make combat "fine" - at best made it fun to watch, for a time.
I suppose it is a matter of different (and low) expectations.
 

Lord of Riva

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Combat is fine in PST, it is essentially the same as it is in any IE game.

It just detracts from what people perceive is the core of the game. I have softened up on this, since you know, numanuma. PST is great as it is, combat and story and all.
 

just

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someone said it's shit and im not playing a game with shit combat just to confirm that guy claims
 

Harthwain

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Due to the jrpg-esque fixed classes and fixed weapon categories the only real choice you get is how to build TNO
I will add: ...and even TNO is limited to just 3 classes, which all are very basic compared to what you can pick from in other games (no subclasses).

It doesn't mean the combat system is shit. It means there's a disproportion of TEXT content vs MECHANICAL content.
That's a weird statement to make. Did anyone claim that ALL Infinity Engine games have shit combat? From my perspective it was always said so in the context of Planescape: Torment. The potential of the combat system as such has no relevance here, because it is not going to be judged by its potential but the execution. So, uh, good job defeating the argument no one was really making, I guess?

Also, I contest the notion that the "disproportion of TEXT content vs MECHANICAL content" is an issue here. The problem, for me, lies purely in how "MECHANICAL content" was handled and not strictly the quantity of it. I mean, with combat as it were you'd only have an even bigger problem trying to shove more shit into people's mouth, but with good combat even TEXT context outweighing MECHANICAL content it'd have been fine (as a sort-of break in-between reading). Hell, I bet people would ask for more. Because people like good quality stuff.
 

Roguey

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The authoritative opinion on Torment: https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2018/0...ctive-on-the-Original-Incarnation-Part-I.html

PS:T combat encounter design is practically non-existent. It is regrettable — since preexistent Fallout did a better job of balancing dialogue, questing, exploration and combat — that dev-cycle emphasis on dialogue, lore and writing in general detracted from the effort that should have been put into the most important aspect of an A/D&D campaign.

Furthermore, what combat there is that manages to spark interest in fans of BG and IWD, is ruined by:

the abysmal pathing routine (worse than even pre-patch BG)
broken inventory mechanics (buff or heal as many times as we like per round; multiple quaffings stack)
clunky portable pop-up (below-pictured)
no combat feedback in the dialogue window
limited spell ranges / special abilities
lack of buff/negative status effect indicators on the portraits (we won't even know what's going on half of the time)
absurd Final Fantasy-style cutscenes that trigger scripted and pre-rendered FMVs every time we cast an epic spell
spell effects that obscure the on-screen action (can't see what is going on!)
stat-screen doesn't even show adjusted THAC0

...


PS:T combat is just completely uninspiring and yawn-inducing. Remembering that it was released several months after Tales of the Sword Coast, there are no notable mage duels à la Davaeorn...

... there are no interesting set-piece battles or boss encounters (Warders/Aec-Letic)...

... there are no rival adventuring parties to pit TNO's crew against...

... and there is almost no terrain to be employed by the player for tactical purposes. Instead, combat encounters are usually staged in wide open areas and largely consist of one benign trashmob (that might bleed into an adjacent, identical trashmob), one toughie and his crew, one super-toughie all alone, or just a full-blown horde such as the one in Curst prison: no fewer than 57 hostile Curst Guards.
 

Cross

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It's surprising that no modders ever sought to fix that.
I've been thinking of doing that, actually. But since I don't really know anything about IE modding, I've just been poking around in NearInfinity. So far I managed to add effects like Stoneskin and Invisibility that were absent from PS:T and I made the Nameless One capable of ranged attacks by throwing daggers (using the animation of the Ice Knife spell).

I also restored some alternate quest solutions that were fully written, but never implemented in the game.

The Enhanced Edition seems to be more moddable than the original version, so maybe Beamdog finally did some good after all. :troll:
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
They obviously didn't have the time to create areas with enemies and enemies with proper abilities in them. So they focussed on the story.

That's it.

Combat in PST didn't bother me that much. It was just a different kind of IE game and fantastic in it's own way. Most autists on the Codex are forever chasing that perfect game, and that perfect woman. Just gotta be experinced enough to know there's no such thing as perfection, only unique attractiveness.

Anticipated Codexian autist's response: "So if you found the perfect game/woman and and it had a massive cock/fault that fucked you in the ass at least once a week, you'd put up with it?".

Me: "Yep. Yeah, sure. That's exactly what I'm saying. PST had a great story but shit combat, and SOD had IE combat and a shit story, so it's exactly the same thing. Dicks are awesome".
 

Cryomancer

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  1. LAck of enemy variety
  2. Lack of interesting enemy abilities
  3. FF style cinematic spells
  4. Lack of challenge
 

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