Torment PST - "shit combat"? Why?

[jackofshadows]

I've played almost every version there has been, including all UAP versions (I've never used any other mods). And I have dug into the AI 'code' (for lack of a better word), and posted it in into some Arcanum thread some time ago (spoiler: it's about one page long).

One page long and literally non-existent aren't the same thing though. Arcanum ain't suppose to be a tacticool game anyway. Somehow I'm sure Fallout's AI is about to be the same if not lesser but you rarely see as anyone shits on it.

 

[Brancaleone]

I've played almost every version there has been, including all UAP versions (I've never used any other mods). And I have dug into the AI 'code' (for lack of a better word), and posted it in into some Arcanum thread some time ago (spoiler: it's about one page long).

One page long and literally non-existent aren't the same thing though. Arcanum ain't suppose to be a tacticool game anyway. Somehow I'm sure Fallout's AI is about to be the same if not lesser but you rarely see as anyone shits on it.

That's because that one page is not even AI: it's a one line of parameters (17 in total) per enemy category. I repeat: any enemy/follower/NPC in Arcanum acts according to one line composed of 17 integers (most of which are the same for most enemies or followers or NPC's). Once in combat, he acts according to three integers: two percentages that, once he randomly chooses whether to autoattack or cast a spell, represent 1) the random chance of casting a random defensive spell (as opposed to the random chance to cast a random offensive spell); 2) the random chance of casting a healing spell, and 3) a fixed number that is the minimum distance he will keep in combat. Everything else is purely random. That. Is. It. Let me repeat once again: combat 'AI' in Arcanum is two percentages and a fixed number between 0 and 5. Everything is braindead randomness, all around.

 

[JarlFrank]

The badness of PST's combat is definitely over-emphasized. It's not terrible, merely alright. It has bad encounter design but the focus isn't on the combat and it doesn't happen frequently enough (at least until the latter half of the game, where they ran out of time and padded the game with filler encounters) that it becomes grating.

PST's combat is definitely better than NWN's, for example, in every conceivable way.

 

[Brancaleone]

The badness of PST's combat is definitely over-emphasized. It's not terrible, merely alright. It has bad encounter design but the focus isn't on the combat and it doesn't happen frequently enough (at least until the latter half of the game, where they ran out of time and padded the game with filler encounters) that it becomes grating.

PST's combat is definitely better than NWN's, for example, in every conceivable way.

Are you and AdolfSatan broom-sharing with Generic-Giant-Spider?

Arcanum's combat is a placeholder, 'AI' included. It's good enough for testing the game's excellent (if not very balanced) character system.

[edit] I fail hard at reading, thought you were talking about Arcanum.

 

[Shadenuat]

Don't underestimate aesthetics. You may think it's petty but visuals are reward for your moment to moment actions, if game looks like shit, people would be bored. Morrowind has all the skills and enemy skills and stamina and armor working in combat but what is happening looks like shit and modders never were able to truly fix it. Diablo 2 is less complex that PoE but some people just like feel of bone spearing & corpse exploding enemies.
PST has great aesthetics including combat. Its biggest sin is Kurast err Curst Prison and all content round it. It's equivalent of Thrais academy in Kotor2. Cut post-Sigil encounters out, people probably wouldn't think about this too much.
I actually almost think we can blame Avellone for this. It is some sort of encounter design stench, which traces from rat catacombs of F2 to majority of kotor2 to NWN2. Someone likes their orcs in caves and I hope one day he comes out into light, admits it, so we can beat him up.

 

[Brancaleone]

I actually almost think we can blame Avellone for this. It is some sort of encounter design stench

On top of all the issues that have already been mentioned, PST has a big 'structural' problem. Once you make the choice of tying almost all of significant development (xp, upgrades, items, money) to quests and conversations, it's very difficult not to have combat becoming an afterthought/disconnected/unconsequential. If quests and conversations provide almost all of the rewards, what is left for combat to provide? Challenge? But how do you provide any kind of meaningful challenge when the player can just go around Sigil doing quests and talking to companions, and he’ll overlevel everything but (possibly) the toughest enemies (thus making combat either irrelevant or at most an ‘end of chapter’ affair)? It's actually rather difficult to properly stagger/gate content in an open area like Sigil, and even more so when the so heavily skewed towards quest/conversation development. BG2’ Ankhatla does a pretty good job of it, and I think it’s a quite underrated reason for the game’s success. You can abuse it somewhat once you know the game like the back of your hand, but only up to a point. But BG2 has a very different ratio of quest/combat rewards than PST.

 

[Sigourn]

Planescape: Torment let me spam items in my inventory in a way Baldur's Gate didn't, with no penalties whatsoever. That's terrible.

 

[Shadenuat]

Once you make the choice of tying almost all of significant development (xp, upgrades, items, money) to quests and conversations

I hear ye, although getting "most rewards not in combat" for PST is a but theoretical. Game is designed to be like it, but actually not - powerleveling, laugh at it or not, in PST is definitely about killing high xp monsters, abishai, worms, shadows, etc. There is even location that entirely designed for this - top difficulty modron maze. It is made by developers as a joke, but actually serves well for leveling up
ur reward is actually seeing high level spell cartoons

 

[Brancaleone]

Once you make the choice of tying almost all of significant development (xp, upgrades, items, money) to quests and conversations

I hear ye, although getting "most rewards not in combat" for PST is a but theoretical. Game is designed to be like it, but actually not - powerleveling, laugh at it or not, in PST is definitely about killing high xp monsters, abishai, worms, shadows, etc. There is even location that entirely designed for this - top difficulty modron maze. It is made by developers as a joke, but actually serves well for leveling up
ur reward is actually seeing high level spell cartoons

Yes, I was referring mostly to the Sigil area (which is probably the most distinctive part of PST experience). The point was, what you get from non-combat means is more than enough to make combat trivial. You can definitely do a lot of things in PST combat, including powerleveling, and almost none of them matter.

And it's a huge missed opportunity, because Sigil & co. was exactly the kind of setting where devs could go wild and experiment not just in terms of 'weirdness for the sake of it'. For example, by re-imagining the concept of the typical D&D Fighter. What do we get instead? A WoW-level 1 type tank with taunt and damage resistence that autoattacks throughout the entire game. Oh, but “you know, there isn’t a single sword in the entire game!”. Why, that’s so interesting, can’t wait to hear the lore behind this. Does the Lady of Pain routinely show up at the blacksmith’s with a tape measure? “So, Mr Clever Dick, how come this ‘dagger’ has a fifty-inch blade? Maze is that way, chop chop.”

 

[Sykar]

I liked the spell effects in the game. Mechanus Cannon was fun to use on occasion, though the spell animation was too long for regular use.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I liked the spell effects in the game. Mechanus Cannon was fun to use on occasion, though the spell animation was too long for regular use.

I agree, it was nice to watch ONCE.
An option to skip it altogether would have made PST greater.

 

[Jvegi]

I agree, it was nice to watch ONCE.
An option to skip it altogether would have made PST greater.

Those spells become available so late, it's not really an issue.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I mean for all spells animations, the axe thing and fire /ice spell animations comes to mind...

 

[Volourn]

I never saw PST'S combat as shit. As good as IWD or BG series? Nah. But not shit, and better than most games.

Also, the idea that PST is mostly non combat is pure bullshit. It has a fukk ton of combat. Lmao

 

[Shadenuat]

An easy fix for spell animations would be to just make these spells one-use. A quest reward that can nuke some difficult encounter and then it erases itself from your spellbook. It would be unique and players would remember it for years after playing gaem. But of course developers would begin ask questions like: oh but our animators work hard on this, and you can only use this spell once, and so on, and such nonsense.

Honestly, it's all overextension. It was in F2, in PST, in KOTOR2. It is a sign of passion. Without it these games wouldn't be good. But it also is a sign of lack of restraint of these teams. Like writers diarrhea in rpg writing, it happens with scope of game too. what combat, what, but i need to write another 100 lines of muh dionarra, and add another level to the game I seen in my alcohol induced avelone dream what

 

[copebot]

The high level spell animations really blew my mind as a kid. Just because they are lame now doesn't mean they were lame in 1999. Compare the lame sparkle animation for casting an ice comet in Everquest to Mechanus Cannon. Those Interplay 2D games understood the appeal of blood, guts, and making the most of the sprites you have -- think about how cool and silly the Fallout death animations were. It's a bit of a case of style over substance. The companions, the combat, the spells and the monsters mostly look cooler than BG1, but BG1 certainly has better combat despite not looking as flashy.

 

[Camel]

Make Brancaleone a monocled poster already.

 

[Poseidon00]

PST has specialties for each character that go mostly forgotten about because there is so little chance to use them and they're all overshadowed by a CON-focused TNO anyway. Morte has multiple good resistances, and there are about a dozen AC-lowering spells in-game that IIRC can be stacked to turn Dak'kon into an unhittable killing machine.

There's like, what, three optional combat areas in the game? With only the Modron Maze offering repeat encounters. Cool idea though.

 

[Shadenuat]

There s quite a lot of these secondary areas really. There's teleport to undead dungun near angry ma, a bandit square where you can get rekked by Lady, undead catacombs are bigger than what people usually explore (silent king stuff), modron maze, and worm infested leveling area under sensate area. And then there's rest of the game when it becomes really, really tiresome. When you rush to Trias there are extra demons to kill all around.
Just that you don't want to, because why would you want to.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Explain it to me.

rtwp

 

[Sykar]

I mean for all spells animations, the axe thing and fire /ice spell animations comes to mind...

The problem was that combat was forcefully paused. Not a good thing for a RTWP game.

 

[Average Manatee]

PS:T just isn't the kind of game where you walk into a room, fight a cool, well-designed encounter with a group of unique enemies, and walk out with a unique weapon/armor/ring/etc that you use for the rest of the game. Combat is the time waster in between the dialogs that give you XP/items/quest progression.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

If someone deleted the combat no one would miss it.

 

[NJClaw]

If someone deleted the combat no one would miss it.

Probably Lilura would. I can't find her youtube channel, but she had multiple PS:T weapon showcase videos.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While I wouldn't call it abysmal at combat, its not very good. The AI is mostly absent. Most enemies just melee attack and have no interesting abilities. Many player spells have tedious JRPG cinematic animations.

It amounts to most combat encounters being just medium to large amounts of trash mobs. I will agree with Lady Error that the brain rats were an excellent monster. One of the best in any of the IE games actually.