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Crispy™ Puppygames developer goes postal... and pretends he's totally calm.

Stefan Vujovic

Educated
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
93
Nope, but they expect that treatment non the less. And i am fucking sure (and by that blog it seems so is he) you don't need a moaning bitch who payed 1c for your game and was told to shove it up his ass...
 

Cromwell

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Feb 16, 2013
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5,443
Nope, but they expect that treatment non the less. And i am fucking sure (and by that blog it seems so is he) you don't need a moaning bitch who payed 1c for your game and was told to shove it up his ass...


You need every moaning bitch you can get if you put yourself in a position where they mater (meaning if no one pays more then that). The Point why you never talk about this is not a big conspiracy or some other convoluted reason, its just not good buisness behaviour, its not professional to rant this way about customers(where others can se it). Rantng about people, even if they derseve it, doesnt make you a beacon of truth and honesty, mostly it makes you an asshole. Even when you have to tell them to go and fuck themselves you do it like a professional. Else you start to think that every one who rats about consumers of your products "says it like it is" and see yourself become a sucker for trash like phil fish.
 

Hobo Elf

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In other news another failed indie dev has a meltdown and turns out to be an insufferable cunt like that faglord Philippe Poisson. Blames everyone around him for his failures and refuses to take a good look at himself in the mirror.
 

retardation

Learned
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Mar 23, 2013
Messages
180
Revenge of the Titans looks like shit, I would never check that game out. Why is this guy ranting? I don't remember reading about developers of Vampire the fucking Masquerade god damned Bloodlines ranting, so why is HE doing that?
 
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Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
Oh wait, this is the developer who's been ripping off old(ish) games left and right, adding a blocky artistic style to everything and then complains because he isn't making money?

He even shills them off at the Steam store with the blurb: "Experience the addictive gameplay of old-school arcade favourites, updated and improved for the 21st century!"

If we want the addictive gameplay of old-school favourites, we will PLAY THE OLD ARCADE FAVOURITES, instead of shilling out $10 for a knock-off product.
 

Kane

I have many names
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
There are unwritten taboos on the internet. There are things you Don’t Say. There are replies you may not give. There are comments you may not make. There are truths you may not tell, in the world of public relations, for the public are fickle, and behave as a mob. A mob in all its feral, brutal depravity, lacking any and all of the qualities we laud upon humanity that allow us to feel so smug over all of the hapless animals that we raise ourselves over. And we are all, whether we admit it or not in public, under strict censorship of the mob. Even admitting that the mob censors our thoughts and feelings and the expression thereof is risky. Be careful! The mob may notice.


Some parts of the internet glory in the mob. 4chan exists, possibly, only as an outlet for the mob. Even mentioning 4chan is risky. It’s like standing in a city full of ravenous zombies, armed with a lowly fire axe, and shouting “BRAINS! HERE! GET ‘EM WHILE THEY’RE HOT!”. If too many zombies notice, you’re toast. They’ll silence you. So we don’t mention 4chan. For similar reasons we don’t mention /r/Games either.

We’re especially careful in comments sections on the internet. Our own blog is mercilessly and ruthlessly moderated with a low-orbit ion cannon. We’re even more ruthless on the Steam community forums, because we’ve got even less control and they don’t even technically belong to us.

But let me talk to you about the dark side of indie public relations a bit.

There’s a thing on the internet called a “troll”, which everyone is well familiar with. They are easily dealt with on your own bit of the internet. Quite often you let them ramble on, and they spool out more than enough rope to hang themselves, and as often as not, a bunch of fans will come whaling in on them. Even if fans don’t step in, usually they have left a lovely permanent record of how twatty they were for all to read. And if it’s just a bit too rude, you just vape ‘em, and probably ban ‘em for good measure.

Trolls are more problematic elsewhere.

When a troll starts to spout shit on some high-profile and influential site on the internet, you have a problem. It’s a very thorny problem because even discussion about the fact that it is a problem is license for the rest of the internet to start trolling you. It has been said that the best way to deal with trolls is of course, not to bait them, but unfortunately they can leave some fairly high-profile bullshit lying around on the internet referring to you, and that’s pretty difficult to deal with when it’s attached to your permanent and public facing persona as an invidual and/or a business. If it was just some random argument on some random site between a couple of random usernames… who cares? Who gives a crap? No-one. And all is well.

But woe betide you if you actually have to step in and reply and say, “Er… no. That is not true.” Especially when it’s the species of troll which plays computer games all day long.

So here are a few things you can’t say, because it upsets everyone. A lot. And I’m going to say them, in a way that will make you think for a few seconds, before you immediately burst into flames with RAGE and spew vitriol into the moderation queue.

Firstly, gamers aren’t very nice people. Yes, you. You are not a very nice person. Statistically speaking. By which I mean, independent game developers get more nasty shit from gamers than they get praise. Right now you are preparing to lecture me about how I talk to customers, or how I deserve to be broke and unsucessful. If you’re feeling particularly sanctimonious you’ll tell me you’re never going to buy any of our games again. If you’re especially spiteful you’ll also tell me that you were about to buy one of our games (for a dollar! ho ho), but now you’re not going to.

I wonder just how many other creative industries have to deal with customers like this. Then again, maybe all of them do. I just make games, so I happen to know about the games side of things. Maybe a musician can chime in and tell me how shitty people can be. Or an artist.

No matter. What does matter is you’re not allowed to point out when someone is just being a shithead to you because they can. Don’t do that. The internet hates you.

Secondly, there is a school of thought that says, there’s no such thing as bad press. Were I being politically correct right now and toeing the party line I would instantly disagree with myself. “NO! Do not argue with the trolls! You make yourself look bad!” And indeed, the internet will be right there to tell you, directly or snidely and indirectly that you’re making yourself look bad by defending yourself. Look at fucking Phil Fish! LOOK! Look at what happened to him! We all remember Phil Fish in sad, reverential tones, as he were an allegory of How Not To Handle The Internet. Poor Phil, we say. He meant well but he lost his cool. He let the internet bring out his naughty, bad side. The side that spoke what he actually thought and felt. Look what the internet did to him! Now he’s a gibbering bearded recluse used as a cautionary tale in two-bit backwater indie game developer blogs. If only Phil had kept his mouth shut, we say. If only Phil hadn’t fed the trolls, we intone. If only.

If only.

Fuck that! Phil Fish, you fucking told them what you thought. You told them how you felt. You told them the actual score. What was actually going on. The internet however decided it didn’t want to hear it, because the internet is mob and the wisdom of crowds is inversely proportional to the square if its size. But deep down we all know, really, that Phil Fish was right. He said what we were all thinking. He said what we want to say. But you can’t do that. It’s taboo. It’s censored! Not allowed.

But this leads us to another, darker, nastier, unwritten thing, that we all think but we don’t talk about, not ever. In fact the one time I ever did allude to it I was permanently banned from the TIGSource forums for daring to say it. But this is my piece of the internet and I can say what I like. And here it is – the bombshell. The more we argue, the more we bait the trolls, the more we seem to get into a death spiral of internet hate… the better it is for us. There is no such thing as bad publicity. Phil Fish may have turned in to a gibbering bearded recluse but now he’s a famous gibbering bearded recluse. Phil Fish only has to tweet a fart and it’ll be all over the internet. Given that discovery is the #1 problem for an indie developer (and always has been), you can see that the more infamous and terrible we are … the more money we make.

But it’s absolutely, utterly fucking forbidden to ever say so.

Good old Phil is sitting pretty on a giant mound of cash the likes of which you will probably not even be able to comprehend, let alone earn in your lifetime. For every one of you that enjoyed denigrating him and thrilled at insulting him, there are now another thousand people who listen to every word he says. When he walks into the restaurant where you pitifully scrub the floor like a servile wretch in order to pay for DLC in DOTA2, you’ll call him sir.

And lastly, the worst, most hideous truth at all, and there’s a bit of history behind it.

You are worthless to us.

What? Did he just say that? I? Your fucking customer? You just said your customers were worthless! Fuck you!!!!11!1!! I’m never buying anything from you again! I’m even going to uninstall all your games you ignorant self-important cunt! How dare you speak to me, your customer, like that?

Woah there, inflamed of Tunbridge Wells. Let’s just rewind a second and analyse that statement for a moment. How did we get here? Let me count the ways.

Once upon a time, back in the early 2000s or so, games would sell for about $20 or so. Some developers did really well at that price point – I mean really well. Most of us didn’t do that well, and made beer money, but we carried on making games anyway because that’s what we liked to do, even if nobody wanted them. When we got a customer we were able to treat them like royalty. Apart from there not being that many of them, twenty bucks is a pretty reasonable chunk of money and you should damned well expect it to work properly. Of course, 99% of the time, when things didn’t work it was just because the customer had shitty OEM drivers that were simply broken. (Interestingly I don’t ever hear of people taking their laptops back to the shop – which remember cost $500 or more – and yelling at the salesmen for selling them something that didn’t work). So what would happen was we spent a not insignificant proportion of our time – time which we could have been making new games in and thus actually earning a living – fixing customers computers. Note that we weren’t fixing our game. We were fixing customers computers for them. It’s a pretty tedious affair. When the same problem turns up 20 times in a day (or even, during a sale, 200 times), and the answer is always the same, that’s the very definition of tedium. So we jokingly used to say that we sold you a game for a dollar and then $19 of support. That’s actually pretty close to accurate when you work out the time spent fixing someone’s computer for them. We relied on enough sales going through without problems to come out on top slightly, though the reality was that we never actually did.

Then Steam came (and to a lesser extent, Big Fish Games).

Things changed fast. So fast that in other industries it would have been seen as a cataclymically disruptive event. The upshot of it is, within 5 short years, the value of an independent game plummeted from about $20 to approximately $1, with very few exceptions. Steam is great! You can sell loads of games! But only if they’re less than $10. Technically Valve don’t actually dictate the prices we charge. Actually, they do. Utterly. It’s just not talked about. In fact technically, I don’t think anyone’s allowed to talk about it.

Then came the Humble Bundle and all its little imitators.

It was another cataclysmically disruptive event, so soon on the heels of the last. Suddenly you’ve got a massive problem on your hands. You’ve sold 40,000 games! But you’ve only made enough money to survive full-time for two weeks because you’re selling them for 10 cents each. And several hundred new customers suddenly want their computers fixing for free. And when the dust from all the bundles has settled you’re left with a market expectation of games now that means you can only sell them for a dollar. That’s how much we sell our games for. One dollar. They’re meant to be $10, but nobody buys them at $10. They buy them when a 90% discount coupon lands in their Steam inventory. We survive only by the grace of 90% coupon drops, which are of course entirely under Valve’s control. It doesn’t matter how much marketing we do now, because Valve control our drip feed.

Where does this lead us to?

You are worthless to us.

Where once you were worth $20, and then you might have become a fan and bought another 4 games off of us for $20, you were worth $100. We only had to fix your computer for you once, as well, so the next four games amortised the cost of the initial support. If we were lucky you were a gamer and already had drivers and liked our stuff and bought the lot. Sometimes you’d tell your friends and maybe one of them would buy a game from us.

But now?

Now you’re worth $1 to us. If you buy every one of our games, you’re worth $5. After Valve and the tax man and the bank take their cuts, you’re not even worth half a cup of coffee. So, while we’re obsequiously polite and helpful when you do contact us for support, even if it’s just the same old “please install some actual video drivers” response, you really should be aware that you are a dead loss. Even if you buy everything we ever make again. Even if all your friends buy everything we ever make again. You just cost us money. Not just fictitious, huge-piles-of-filthy-lucre indie-game-developer who made-it-big money. All our money. We barely scratch a living, like most indie game developers. You quite literally cost us lunch because the shop sold you a computer with broken software on it.

So you’ll understand now why customers aren’t worth anything much any more. You’ll realise why we’re actually happy to see you go if you feel like insulting us. You might add two and two together and realise that for four, we’re not going to cry ourselves to sleep over the loss of your custom when we don’t take your shit.

But we’re not allowed to say it, because it makes customers feel bad. Customers all think they’re worth everything in the entire world to us. The funny thing is, you are. Without customers, we’re dead in the water, homeless and living in a cardboard box outside Berko sewage plant. But individually, you’re like ants. And all of developers secretly know it and don’t talk about it. You’re not worth supporting. It’s far, far better to completely, totally ignore support, if you want to make a living. Developers don’t like to talk about it, and they certainly don’t want to make customers aware of it. Some developers right now are bristling with public-relation-inflating indignation, waiting to burst into my castle in shining white armour championing the cause of their customers, and how they treat their customers like royalty still. But I know, and they know, they’re only doing that because it’s actually yet more Dark Side of Public Relations. It’s a lie. The numbers do not add up. I’ll show you where they do add up – on Steam, on the App Store, on Big Fish, on Google Play. That’s where all of the money is going these days, great sucking, black holes, spewing out tat on their event horizons and hoovering up pennies from wallets worldwide. You can yell about how important you are into the black hole if you like. No-one cares. You can “take your money elsewhere” and “never buy another product from you again, EVER”, and the black hole will continue to treat you exactly as you deserve – with impassive, voracious, inexorable silence, and still ever-growing. Because you’re worthless.

Does anyone think we wanted it to happen this way? Seriously?

Don’t talk about it though. It wouldn’t do to let anyone talk about it. 4chan are coming. I’m going to get my head down and keep writing games, because that’s what I like doing. PR sucks.

http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574#more-1574

Then, despite being above the metaphorical fray, he dives into the comments at RPS and argues with 'trolls' who he constantly reminds they aren't worth his time... by spending more and more time responding to them.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/08/18/puppygames-battledroid-basingstoke/

The problem of this man is that he reads internet comment sections.
 
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Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Why guilt-tripped? He just says how it is.
Nope. If he said it like it was, he'd not have forgotten to mention how much of an idiot he was to dump his games into a fodder bundle before they even got released. Instead it's apparently the pirates' sorry customers' fault. What a story.

The article contains a lot of interesting information about how stuff works - about 1 vs. 1000s internet fights and how market changes with lower game prices influence stuff like support and how sales caused these games to be bought almost exclusively during sales nowadays.
Nope. It's an article about a guy that doesn't get it. Very interesting but for different reasons. Cromwell is pretty spot-on in that regard. I see bundles with unfinished games or "straight to DVD" grade games all the time. I don't buy them. Maybe they're good, but they're dumped there like they have no value whatsoever - why am I going to waste my time on them when I have several dozen amazing games on my backlog? Why is this one worth my time? Well just because it was cheap in a bundle apparently. Big shock, right?

Ah wait, you're customer service scum?
Nope.
 
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
1,563
maybe it would have been a good Idea to actually finish it and promote it,

He seems to be doing the promoting part now, with the methods of Phil Fish school of public relations. Getting name for his studio and its games. Evidently he can learn from his mistakes.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,160
The goal is to scoop up customers at all price points and this genius pretty much releases his game on hobo bundle for 1 cent? I think he's just butthurt people didn't pay like 20$ out of goodness of their heart. Unfortunately it doesn't work this way.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Messages
15,010
I seem to recall it being a pretty shit game anyways. There are flash games floating around for free of much higher quality than a lot of bundle fodder.

Also, if your game isn't working when the other 90 fucking games I own work just fine, don't blame my end. It's your fault for programming a game that relies on some obscure bullshit no other games use. Just because it worked on your test system of a fully updated month old computer doesn't mean jack.
 

Explorerbc

Arcane
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,170
I hate it when devs discount their games on steam to try and grab some last sales and then put them on a bundle for $1 one or two days later (Limbo never forget). I think its a bullshit move, and although I wouldn't mind paying a bit more before, I feel suckered in afterwards. And yeah, I am a cheap bastard, save me the speeches about poor devs crying hungry at night etc, I didn't ask for much, just keep a reasonable discount schedule, and also if you don't like people buying your game for 1$ don't put it in the bundle, instead of grabbing the money and then calling everyone cheap. That's why I never buy indie games anymore, because every fucking time I decided to get something it was in the next bundle within a few weeks for almost free.

Also, another thing I hate is when devs go full retard like that. I get that you are just a single guy under pressure with much to lose and heavy emotional investment on the project, but seriously how much brains does it take to not do this kind of stuff. They could learn a thing or two from the PR talk of AAA companies. Yeah maybe Phil Fish was right about the people bitching, but he started acting like an asshole and a crybaby and it didn't even matter anymore, same with this guy. I remember a blog post by Jeff Voegel in which he was butthurt because the codex called avadon shit, and he got all defensive and started ranting. I love some of his games but he lost a lot of my respect there. FFS just let it go.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
13,056
Also, another thing I hate is when devs go full retard like that. I get that you are just a single guy under pressure with much to lose and heavy emotional investment on the project, but seriously how much brains does it take to not do this kind of stuff. They could learn a thing or two from the PR talk of AAA companies.

Or from guys like this: http://www.pentadact.com/2013-06-18-gunpoint-recoups-development-costs-in-64-seconds/

Or http://banishedinfo.com/official_blog

Lone devs, too. Feel the difference.
 

Metro

Arcane
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Those were made by single developers so it's not a big surprise they end up profitable. Not defending Puppygames dude -- he clearly overpays his staff for the stuff he outputs.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
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Messages
13,056
Those were made by single developers so it's not a big surprise they end up profitable. Not defending Puppygames dude -- he clearly overpays his staff for the stuff he outputs.
Good point. Still, I don't think they'd have ended up very profitable if the devs just dumped them into a bundle right at launch.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
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Messages
27,792
Yep. You live by the bundle you die by the bundle. He rants about no one buying his games and that being in a bundle was almost mandatory but if no one is buying your game then... maybe you don't really have a good game and/or its overpriced. Stuff like Banished, Gunpoint, Orcs Must Die, etc. all sold quite well before bundle status.
 

Dr Tomo

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Internet is really a foul place to be, while you can certainly meet some nice and interesting people, 99% are insecure mom closet fag boys, especially that one faggot who is so mad cause he could a have payed 1c for a game(fucking ONE cent)... Am totally with puppy games on this one, and i would a have done the same, there is some things money just cant buy and its called self integrity, and fuck that "you are a poor salesman" spin, they are game makers for niche markets anyway, and their games are much more worth then peanut money they are forced to sell them for...

Just try to imagine how does it feel from a developer side that the game you spent 2 years making is selling trough some humble bundle bullshit on day 1. And then that same costumers expect that you treat them as royalty, as some precious asset, fuck that i'll treat them as they deserve, a fucking freeloaders trash...

Well it's his dumbass fault to even sell the games on a the humble bundle as I known some indies sell them after they noticed a consistent dip in their Steam sales. There was a guy on Gamesutra or some other site who dropped a bombshell on the differences of Steam and consoles(and I regret not bookmarking it) and of course he was an indie. Everyone should know that after a release a video game automatically goes into a down slope on sales for both consoles and PC , the difference is that a thing called "Steam sales" keeps bringing it into an up slope and the guy first sited adding fucking useless achievements for the Christmas sale and later updates for the summer and etc. The point being is that you generate small income for you indie team for a few months if you know how the platform works which there is a lot of Gamesutra articles that can give you an idea on marketing for Steam and etc.


Puppy only had four months of funds left when they made the decision at the start of May. “Due to several decisions of dubious merit last year we’ve ended up wasting most of our cash on things that never flew,” they said. Oh dear. Free-to-play massively multiplayer war game Battledroid was still looking at another year of development, so they threw everything at a smaller game they might get to finish. Trying to Kickstart Battledroid would take too long and be unlikely to succeed, Puppy say. They also briefly worked on prototyping a pretty-looking arcade dogfighter named Skies of Titan.

This guy's studio I bet made some money and the RPS article sheds light on why he is crying that his studio is insolvent. As they say in America, straight from the horses mouth see above quote. Now if this was Klei entertainment then I might feel sympathy for them as they are a good studio. Granted they make some mediocre games, they at least know what not to do which is blow monies on a mmorpg and tackle projects that they can't handle for the size of their team, again let me reiterate mmorpg. This jackass blames customers for being cheap and Steam for devaluing his game, but in reality the idiot just didn't adapt to the new reality that it now takes a little more "effort" to be fucking successful so no more free handouts like the first wave Meatboy, Limbo, Fez, and etc.

Also he blames serving customers well this is a business and it isn't a dirty secret which amazes me about this game industry. This is why I like the drama in the games industry, a lot of people from triple A studio to the indie ones don't know dick about business which every other industry outside this one mastered over the last 50 years like customer management, marketing, reputation management, damn project management, and etc. You don't bend over backwards for the customer as you do token shit until it is costly and you tell the customer to fuck off and that comes with managing expectations. If half audience is complaining about a bug you fix it if a small group has a weird bug because they mixed Nvidia and AMD then well sucks to be them.

Those were made by single developers so it's not a big surprise they end up profitable. Not defending Puppygames dude -- he clearly overpays his staff for the stuff he outputs.

There are dozens of others if not hundreds that are successful and Klei is one of them, as they don't fuck around when it comes to how how they manage themselves once you read that one interview. They know any day they can be snuffed out like a candle hence why they are frugal and iterate obsessively over projects. I can guarantee you, if you given this guy a successful fast food chain near a busy road this guy would run it into the ground in a year.

The goal is to scoop up customers at all price points and this genius pretty much releases his game on hobo bundle for 1 cent? I think he's just butthurt people didn't pay like 20$ out of goodness of their heart. Unfortunately it doesn't work this way.

This, it is the new reality as this is what pc developers have learned to combat piracy. You sell it at regular price and slowly increase the discount over the year so you can get some monies back while adding some stuff to the game before each new sale/discount and so far it works. If he expects me to pay for regular price then guess what, I will pirate his game, that is the reality as some people don't want to spend regular price on a game or get burned. So my advice to him is good luck and gtfo out of the game business as it isn't for you and good riddance.
 

ColCol

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
1,731
Yeah, saw this, didn't pay much mind. Clearly an attempt to grab attention, truthful rant or not .

Though, It did remind me of Revenge of the titans which I have been meaning to play. Unfortunately, I lost interest after less than an hour of playing. The stealth game the company is working on looks interesting.
 
In My Safe Space
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Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
This thread is great for updating my ignore list.

The goal is to scoop up customers at all price points and this genius pretty much releases his game on hobo bundle for 1 cent? I think he's just butthurt people didn't pay like 20$ out of goodness of their heart. Unfortunately it doesn't work this way.
The main problem with bundles is that they are bundles not individual pay what you want sales.

He even shills them off at the Steam store with the blurb: "Experience the addictive gameplay of old-school arcade favourites, updated and improved for the 21st century!"

If we want the addictive gameplay of old-school favourites, we will PLAY THE OLD ARCADE FAVOURITES, instead of shilling out $10 for a knock-off product.
Err... old arcade favourites usually WERE knock-off products.
 

Cromwell

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Messages
5,443
I can guarantee you, if you given this guy a successful fast food chain near a busy road this guy would run it into the ground in a year.

It is like he says it is he will keep writing games because that is what he likes. He never stops to think that with all the ways you can promotoe your game now maybe the guys who not only like to write games but also have a basic business sense are the ones who will sell more then you.
 

Jools

Eater of Apples
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Insert Title Here Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Ah, the magic wonders of capitalism. Someone should introduce this guy to it. With this soundtrack:

 

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