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Quake Enhanced Edition

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Morgoth, Aug 13, 2021.

  1. schru Arcane

    schru
    Joined:
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    840
    No. The solution is rather to make small corrections to the parts that look a little awkward at higher resolutions. And when playing with texture filtering on or modified lighting in source ports, they'd also need somewhat higher-resolution textures.

    They have simple geometry, but they don't look like toys in the game. The double-barrelled shotgun and the nailguns could gain more polygons without losing their iconic look, but the angular look on the shotgun, grenade launcher, and rocket launcher is part of their appeal. Even the axe looks kind of nice the way it is and I certainly prefer it to the replacement used in AD and 1.5.

    At any rate, what I've been saying is that the weapon designs are irreplaceable because they're cool and iconic and fit great with the game world's rough, crude geometry. Their hunk-of-metal-like appearance with some wooden grips is what makes the designs special. Those in Quake 1.5 aren't incompetent or such, they're fine on their own and would fit in some retro indie shooter, but they don't match original game's æsthetics.

    I didn't doubt you the first time, but it doesn't detract from how the weapons feel, as the difference in the number of frames isn't that apparent. Additional frames could be added to them, it's not something that warrants replacing the original designs. I'm also not sure if in case of the nailgun making the animation smoother wouldn't be detrimental, as the low-frame look gives it a look vaguely similar to intermittent illumination when discharging an automatic weapon in darkness. The problem I had in mind regarding it is that the animation is rather simplistic because of the way the piece going horizontally across the barrels moves a bit strangely in relation to them; at higher resolutions it does just look like an aggregate of cubic solids jiggling together, I'll give you that. There's also the actual problem with the nails being fired from above the gun rather than the barrels.

    I wouldn't add any idle animations or such. The minimal approach with just the running bob feels appropriate.

    Anyway, low-frame animation doesn't equate to ‘trash’ visuals. All these things amount to technicalities or the need to polish things up for rendering settings the game wasn't originally designed in mind with. When I said that the weapons cannot be improved upon, I meant that their audio-visual designs and feel are irreplaceable.

    And just because you can't conceive that someone may look at things this way doesn't mean he's pretending. I started out with the attitude ‘I'd rather wait for a source port’ and thought it'd be nice to have higher-resolution assets in older games, but gradually, as I saw how these things tend to turn out, I changed my mind to a DOSBox/wrapper-only stance (of course this doesn't apply to more expansive map packs and mods designed for source ports with new features). And again, one you get bored of the original game, it's fine to play around with whatever mods and conversions you like. I just object to suggestions that the original game with its presentation can be supplanted at some point.

    ‘Shitty’ balance, the iconic weapons are an ‘eyesore’. But then you get cross with someone for saying that a work-in-progress compilation mod looks terrible because it tinkers with much more than just the weapons.

    Those early Id games had small weapon selections, but the way they stand out from basically all shooters ever made shows that having a wider selection rarely amounts to a more cohesive and fulfilling gameplay, and at the very least that it's very difficult to balance and create good uses for many weapons in a shooter.

    It'd be nice to have two or three interesting guns more, provided the campaign were also longer. I don't think the enemy roster is that lacking either; it's quite satisfactory for the base game. What is disappointing is that Id wasn't able to live up to that standard of game design ever since.

    The shotgun retains its utility when it comes to weaker enemies at range when the player is short on ammo; in earlier maps it still makes sense to fall back on it rather than waste nails or grenades on weaker enemies. You're probably right about the difference between the nailgun and supernailgun being too small, though: the rate of fire is not that different to warrant falling back on the weaker weapon to save ammo and they're generally found close together, in terms of levels. The grenade launcher is very fun to use and I think it might be the best one out of all shooters, but there's definitely less motivation to keep using it once you acquire the rocket launcher. Yet, lobbing grenades around corners and such is a very different function.

    I think there are enough opportunities to use the Thunderbolt as a special, extra-powerful weapon. I find that I don't use it that much not because of the lack of ammunition or limited number of levels it's in, but simply because I tend to save it for the more demanding encounters. The axe is a weapon of last resort and while that kind of thing isn't very interesting in itself, it makes sense in that type of shooter. It shouldn't be a viable regular weapon, just like the fist in Doom. It could be interesting to experiment with giving it an ability to deal extra damage in some particular conditions or when blows are landed very skilfully, though, like how the berserker pack in Doom makes the first powerful, but it's easy to miss and the player makes himself particularly vulnerable.

    There's potential for modifications to the weapons balance and mechanics, and note that I didn't object to what you said regarding the other gameplay mods. Still, I'd rather keep Doom and Quake simple, the way they are, as their combat systems have outstanding rhythm and cohesion.

    When it comes to classic shooters with more weapons, the balance in them too often comes down to a few core weapons being universally serviceable, while the rest hang on as awkward additions that lack proper use and place in the game. It's the case in Unreal (I know, your mod), Sin, Half-Life, and even Blood, which has very imaginative and fun weapons, leaves something to be desired in terms of game design to make the later special weapons fit in. Shadow Warrior is rather underappreciated for how its monsters with special variants create a more diverse flow in terms of the range of weapons that feels appropriate in different situations. Serious Sams do a very good job of making almost every weapon useful and the composition of the hordes requiring different approaches, but it doesn't have that many weapons. It also feels like the weapons and AI from Unreal Tournament had great potential for a singleplayer game, if similarly effective non-humanoid enemies were added to it.

    Also:

    I think Half-Life 2 and the Episodes are fun games (but not continuing the original's formula is a shame), I found Thief II disappointing and somewhat dull, I don't like Baldur's Gate II at all, and I think Invisible War is enjoyable for what it is. I think that should preclude me from pandering to the Codex's tastes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
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  2. JBro Arbiter

    JBro
    Joined:
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    They weren't ported to Unity. Unity is just a wrapper.
     
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  3. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
    Joined:
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    3,079
    [​IMG]

    Feelsgoodman. First time I beat Quake's original campaign on Nightmare, and the 50 health cap was actually an interesting challenge.
     
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  4. Great Deceiver Arcane

    Great Deceiver
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    Nightmare on this version seems a lot easier than the original.
     
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  5. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    Haven't played enough Nightmare on the original to judge but a lot of people claim the monster turret-like "plant and shoot forever" AI was easier to exploit in the original.
     
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  6. Valestein Arcane Patron

    Valestein
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    Location:
    Haliask, North Ambria
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
    So have any of you lads gotten the chievo for no damaging the painless maze on nightmare?
     
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  7. Fronzel Neekburm Arcane Patron

    Fronzel Neekburm
    Joined:
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    Here you go:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    PS: I fucking hate Spawns!
     
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  8. Riskbreaker Arcane Patron

    Riskbreaker
    Joined:
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    1,227
    If this wasn't cemented for me, final stretch of 'Fading Embers' from DotM on Nightmare would've taken care of that alright. (and speaking of that map, certain scripted 'traps' seem to be designed to troll non-savescumming players)

    You've no idea about where I'm coming from or about value judgements behind what I wrote.
    Thing is tho, you've no consciousness of where YOU are coming from.
    Going by your prior posts, you are Russian, or Ukrainian or Belarus. Am I right in assuming this?
    So you are someone of Slavic descent idolizing Hitler online, calling this person sporting a picture of Hitler as their avatar "one of the least political posters" (!!!), all of it on an international messageboard dedicated to video games.
    The condition of advanced, global capitalist modernity is the condition of your possibility. Only via radical separation from one's history and thru that history being made fluid, only thru being separated from anything like inherited unifying narrative, only via alienation from your immediate environment and being more 'at home' in a virtual world of weightlessness and fluidity, only via oversaturation of information, of being exposed to infinity of mutually contradictory narratives without any unifying basis, only thus could you be so constituted that you, a man of Slavic descent, would write what you wrote and where you wrote it.
    Only under the specific conditions of late capitalism are you or others like you here possible. Your 'rebellion' against liberalism is the affirmation thereof.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
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  9. Gandalf Learned

    Gandalf
    Joined:
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    465
    The sad thing about Quake is they never made a proper sequel. 25 years and counting...
     
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  10. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
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    3,079
    Fuck spawns in general. I died so many times to hilarious, 20-meter leaps and bounds it's not funny. The 50 max hp doesn't help at all, as every explosion one shots you even with leftover armor.
     
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  11. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Oct 16, 2015
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    ^Just one reason of many the 50hp change to Nightmare (taken from copper mod) is retarded, instead of the better vanilla design. I don't know how they can justify such a significant and stupid change in a rerelease.

    "but vanilla nightmare turns enemies into turrets!!!"

    Knights, Hell Knights, Spawns, rottweiler, rotfish and fiend are all melee-only and therefore are not turret-ified, with one exception being hell knight's projectile attack which he performs while moving.

    Vores and zombies are turrets either way, since they have such slow movement speed.

    Grunts and enforcers are gunners...they're supposed to be turret-like. Anytime one of these guys are not shooting they're just walking around like idiots open to an easy kill...why would that be desired on the highest difficulty?

    This only leaves Shamblers, Ogres and Scrags. Shamblers have a limited projectile range so have to move in on your position regardless of anything. They are also easily abusable with the "shambler dance", though vanilla nightmare makes it more risky to attempt thanks to more frequent and extended duration of lightning. Vanilla nightmare makes these guys better.
    Scrags become quite turret-like indeed, and once again I think that's the point. Again they'll otherwise just be flying around being a non-threat. Sure repositioning can be a tactical advantage, but suppressing fire is generally better. And furthermore they'll move any time line of sight is broken or you move out of range anyway.
    Ogres are the only enemy type this turret behavior stands out in a bad way, because they spam the absolute shit out of their grenades (the strongest attack in the game outside of spawn explosion!) and baiting their chainsaw is just too risky, as a grenade to the face isn't pretty. They really stand there and go at it. Yet so what if you can just circle-strafe them? You can do so all the same on hard as long as the level design allows it. This makes it harder if you ask me since nades are bouncing around everywhere. So instead of perhaps just tweaking the orge if this is really such an issue (meh), they removed all the nightmare stuff and instead made nightmare 50hp. 50hp means more annoying instant deaths, just two voreballs or ogre grenades and you're fucked, stuff like self-damage with RL being highly punishing (accidental because something got in your face, or rocket jumps), dying to one spawn that explodes anywhere near you, backtracking for health packs is now twice as frequent (since you only "carry" half the health) and more. Vanilla nightmare was mostly fine. This is dumb. Could have at least just added a new difficulty called nightmare alternate or something, triggerable via console? What justifies replacing id's long-established superior design in an official rerelease? It wasn't perfect, well then tweak it a little, not make it entirely different and annoying.

    Edit: Well, this has inspired me to do some further nightmare tweaking.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
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  12. Multi-headed Cow Magister

    Multi-headed Cow
    Joined:
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    Location:
    Illinois
    Why shambler, I had always seen you as a monster but it is only now that I see you as a woman.

    [​IMG]

    :bounce::bounce::bounce:
    I now know why that map is called Vault of Zin and the shambler is safely secured within.
     
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  13. Multi-headed Cow Magister

    Multi-headed Cow
    Joined:
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    Well that's a bit odd. Saw someone in here talking about clipping on the interface but I hadn't seen it until just now. Quit long enough to make my shambler shitpost and then fired it back up, and with zero fucking around with settings I'm now getting lines around armor/health/ammo numbers.

    [​IMG]

    Edit: And then rebooting the game cleared 'em away once again. Mysterious.
     
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  14. Zboj Lamignat Arcane

    Zboj Lamignat
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,329
    Yeah, sometimes you get that and sometimes you get the nice and clean one. Itisamystery.
     
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  15. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Messages:
    3,079
    Controller Players Can Do Just as Well as Mouse Players, the Sequel

    [​IMG]

    I'm just salty because I've been banned from the Quake discussion hub for a month over an argument with a "controller is as good as mouse" retard, who obviously got his feelings hurt and reported me, then the Steam feelings police immediately banned me.

    Once my ban lifts, I should make a collage of those scoreboards and post it as artwork on the hub...
     
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  16. Ash Arcane

    Ash
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
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    4,736
    The mouse is better for speedy precision. It's not even an argument to be had. Controller has some advantages of it's own, but few are going to be any good in Quake since it wasn't designed for it. Unless Kex has made some changes, e.g more than just four-directional binary input movement.
    Someone pointed out you do have yet another extra advantage though: Quake is long-running PC game of 25 years. PC players know the maps, any meta strategies. item respawn times, optimal routes etc. Knowledge that easily leads to total domination. Given this fact in addition to the controller disadvantage some do seem to be actually doing quite well.
     
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  17. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    I never played Quake 1 DM in my life before this updated release and don't know any of the maps apart from Place of Two Deaths which I ran around on my own for 5 minutes. I also died about 5 times in that Claustrophobopolis match because of the teleports that drop you into open lava traps :hahano:
     
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  18. Pentium Learned

    Pentium
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2020
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    Socket 5
    Well, it was always obvious to me that it acted like a sexually frustrated female when in chase mode.

    Also an interesting sidelight on Shamblers (kind of):

     
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  19. LESS T_T Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    LESS T_T
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
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    13,061
    Codex 2014
    The cut part from E2M6 (cut due to floppy disk size) has been known and the original map file was shared before, but now it's officially restored.



    Also comparisons from lead designer of Quake Champions. Not just subtle colored lighting but also shows actual geometry changes.

     
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  20. Wunderbar Arcane

    Wunderbar
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
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    6,407
    Fucking twitter is now plasters a huge "log in or sign up!" window on top of a screenshot and doesn't allow me to close it without closing a screenshot too.

    :x
     
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  21. Ghulgothas Arcane

    Ghulgothas
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2020
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    Location:
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    https://nitter.net/
    I think this is still unaffected.
     
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  22. Multi-headed Cow Magister

    Multi-headed Cow
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    Refresh the page when the nag window's up while looking at a screenshot and you should be golden.
     
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  23. Unreal Liturgist

    Unreal
    Joined:
    May 6, 2016
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    1,473
    Location:
    The Centre of the World
    But Quake already had analogue movement.
     
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  24. Kruno Arcane Village Idiot Zionist Agent Shitposter

    Kruno
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2012
    Messages:
    7,922
    My friend said this game was like COD and I love COD so I gave it a try. Its fun but I have problems with it. How do you aim down sights? Hdo you sprint? How do I enable the quest markers?

    thnks.
    --------------------

    Enjoying the game, but a lot of global achievements are < 4%. Is anyone playing this more than 1 hour?
     
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  25. Avonaeon Arcane Developer

    Avonaeon
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
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    Location:
    Denmark
    Looks like the ones with the lines, the ui is using biliinear filtering.
     
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