Quest compass and marker

[Cael]

You may snobbishly say you don't need those crutches but you do, and no amount of NPC descriptions will help you.

That's not true, I've played games where you have to figure stuff out before. "Visit the Warlock on the northern edge of the forest near where the river forks." Games like EQ were full of that and there was no map at all, no quest markers, and not even a journal.

That kind of thing is unheard of now, and it shouldn't be.

(It didn't even have a clickable quest dialogue / interface. You had to type to the NPC to ask it questions to progress the quest.)

I present to you: Ultima Underworld and Ultima Underworld 2, the latter of which had you looking for components of a wand over 3 different dimensions/worlds and you were never given the directions to them, just "find x, y and z and bring them back to me".

I won't even bother to go into Ultima 4. "Here is a world, your goal is to be Avatar. Good luck."

 

[PEACH]

Hard to imagine a world where this isn't the prominent design philosophy for the foreseeable future.

The developers get to ensure every dummy who sits down with a controller for half an hour never loses sight of the carrots by creating an endless amount of them, each dangled inches from the players eyes at all times and each with a golden wire leading them to the exact location of their "reward". Add some peco-upgrades / godhead mcguffins / xp bonus / crafting materials to give the player a sense of success and satisfaction for having followed the line to completion and completed the quest and you minimize any chance that they could get bored, frustrated, confused or lost while jacking them up on arbitrary bonuses for being able to walk in a straight line for a few minutes.

The unfortunate end result for a lot of players is a feeling of accomplishment and enthusiastic re-entry into the core feedback loop where they'll continue to exhaust content no matter how trite or trivial it ultimately is. Doesn't seem to matter how tight the leash gets as long as that feedback loop keeps going.

As much as I'd like it to be different the cynical part of me can't think of why any developer/publisher would change the formula if only a small minority of people seem to take umbrage with it in the first place. Hard to believe they'd even know how to design a level without those crutches, as evidenced by just about any game where you can turn markers off and end up fumbling to get even a scrap of directions in a world that was designed to be explored on autopilot.

 

[Iznaliu]

If you ask the quest giver how does it look like he could say, you will know when you see it. Done deal.

The issue with that is that in the scenario given, it would be unrealistic for the quest giver to know how it looked.

 

[ilitarist]

First of all, your example quest is garbage. You want the player to find a specific book in a building filled with 2000 identical books, randomly scattered throughout? And that's all the detail you can come up with? This is the best you can do? If somebody hired me to do this, I would have a thousand questions for them.

What is the book? What does it look like? How big is it? Yes, what color is the cover? Does it have a drawing of a huge dragon on the front? Does it have skulls embossed on the spine? Why does the quest giver want the book? What's it about? Where would you keep a book on how to mix alchemical ingredients? Where would you keep a cookbook? Where would you keep a book on bird watching? Does its owner read it often? Probably, if it's so damn important. So does he read in bed every night? Does he read in the bathtub? Even if you choose not to make it visually distinct (Why? Do you have a good reason it shouldn't be?), NPC description can tell you a thousand things about this item and the person you're stealing it from, and give you clues or outright directions exactly where to find it. Just think it through and make a little damn effort.

You missed the point completely. I've covered what you were talking about: you're talking about the need to transform a simple act of getting the important object into a puzzle with clues and hints and so on. This would only work for a small number of quests. It may unironically only work in a very specific world, maybe like Planescape. It's already strange when everyone in the world has a quest for you, but when the quest giver knows exactly all the needed details for you to find the item in the world then it's like a children book. And again you're missing on emergence and randomness and all that. Say what you want about Skyrim but it had a good idea of making dungeon story independent from a quest that might lead you there. When you are asked to get a sword of whateverness in a random cave you just go there and get it, quest giver doesn't tell you in which room it probably lies. And this item may even have a physics applied to it with no fear that fireball throws it somewhere.

There are only three advantages to quest markers.

Bear in mind Skyrim has a gigantic worldscape with plenty of interior cells, some so irrelevant a lot of people never bothered to explore. Those things are so hard to find because the reward completely breaks the game economy, as I discovered when I looked up on the Internet where to find all of those gems.

I don't get how you can unironically first talk about quest markers in this diminishing way and then giving a perfect example of what I was talking about. Detailed world with lots of stuff in it means that you can no longer put a single item into a dungeon and be confident that any player finds it. Even in a relatively mild example in a game that is ridden with quest markers you've googled the solution in a rare quest that doesn't help you navigate through the world.

 

[Zombra]

This would only work for a small number of quests.

No. If you commit to designing each quest with care and purpose, then 100% of quests can be designed with care and purpose. It's certainly more work than scattering objectives around, attaching GPS coordinates to them and calling it "writing", but that's the nature of quality.

But when the quest giver knows exactly all the needed details for you to find the item in the world then it's like a children book.

Idiotic. Obviously, when hand-tailoring clues and directions, you don't have to make them so pathetically straightforward that a 3-year-old can interpret them ... unlike quest markers.

And again you're missing on emergence and randomness and all that. Say what you want about Skyrim but it had a good idea of making dungeon story independent from a quest that might lead you there.

Even stupider than what you've said up to now. Having quests with no story or relationship with the environment they take place in is an awful idea. On what planet is meaninglessness a sign of strong plotting?

When you are asked to get a sword of whateverness in a random cave you just go there and get it, quest giver doesn't tell you in which room it probably lies.

What you're describing is "Press A to be awesome." Turn off the brain and mash the buttons until a cookie appears. This is complete garbage.

 

[ilitarist]

Here's an advice: when you criticize something on merit of it being made for stupid people you don't really have any argument. Sex and exquisite food do not require much brain to be enjoyed. Especially in this case when you advocate for quick mindless solution to be replaced with a long mindless solution. Reading the list of directions doesn't make you use your brain and it doesn't make it all any more interesting. This is one of those things people think they want. It's no more exciting than emulating weapon maintenance with the need to manually wash and sharpen blade.

But weapon maintenance thing would at least be realistic. You ask for unimmersive bullshit. Because I fully expect that most of requests for items just pinpoint a location and inside I just look for it. And I can assume that my hero spends couple of hours checking all the stuff he sees and finally finds the thing. Or learns where NPC can be at this time of day and finds him. The game shows it by just giving me a quest marker. It may have several quests where finding the thing is a puzzle and not a busywork (and most of those games have quests like that) but for most part it's cutting out the busywork.

The fact that you enjoy that stuff doesn't mean you have any more brain cell than any other gamer. It means you *think* you'll be ok with suffering through boring stuff, thus proving to be superior than those who don't want to spend time on boring things.

 

[PEACH]

You may snobbishly say you don't need those crutches but you do

Truly a classic and esteemed old chestnut. So good in fact, you figured it bore repeating again and again.

This is one of those things people think they want.

It means you *think* you'll be ok with suffering through boring stuff

Here's something that oughta blow your mind:

It's only partly a cop out by devs solving the problem of bad level design

No, dumbfuck. It's devs creating the problem of bad level (and world) design. In The Dark Project you learn contextual cues about your environment through notes, observance and so forth, there is no need for a quest compass because you are able to suss out the details through discovery and inquisition due to... you guessed it: good level design and use of both intuitive and explicit means of navigation and problem solving.

To boil things like this (or Morrowind's fantastic directions & public transportation systems which breathe more life into the world than any other feature, or Gothic's individualized maps that must be purchased and glanced at to give yourself some bearings in unfamiliar locations) into being things people think they want with a steep implication that they're of no value and a claim that they're boring of all things is to be a clear cut avatar of decline.

 

[HansDampf]

Whatever solution you try to come up with, this image

shows the main issue with quest markers. As soon as there is an icon on screen that marks the location of the object, the player focuses on the icon instead of paying attention to the environment. Sleepwalking.
But a distinction should be made between glowing objects and quest markers, that are visible through walls and, in many cases, have distance meters attached. In the book example, you could force the player to find the library without a GPS, using directions from NPCs and a map. But object-glow could help them to find the book once they're inside the library. Maybe the effect will only show when the player is close enough. You could even link the maximum distance to a skill or difficulty setting. That way, the player would still have to think roughly where to search within the library, minimizing sleepwalking. And the effect could be as unobtrusive as you like. A reflection of light, or something like that. No wallhacks or hero vision, please...

And disabling quest markers will usually lead to problems, as Prey has recently shown me. It works fine in most cases, but good luck finding a tiny human corpse outside the huge space station in zero g without any markers. There isn't even a map of the exterior. You are completely lost. Modern games are designed with quest markers in mind first.

 

[ilitarist]

No, dumbfuck. It's devs creating the problem of bad level (and world) design. In The Dark Project you learn contextual cues about your environment through notes, observance and so forth, there is no need for a quest compass because you are able to suss out the details through discovery and inquisition due to... you guessed it: good level design and use of both intuitive and explicit means of navigation and problem solving.

To boil things like this (or Morrowind's fantastic directions & public transportation systems which breathe more life into the world than any other feature, or Gothic's individualized maps that must be purchased and glanced at to give yourself some bearings in unfamiliar locations) into being things people think they want with a steep implication that they're of no value and a claim that they're boring of all things is to be a clear cut avatar of decline.

Again, you have to read what I've already written.

First it doesn't look like you've played Morrowind at any length. Otherwise you'd knew that this direction system means that numerous quests can't be completed without googling. It often didn't work in low-polygon world of Morrowind. So this is what you think you want, it's boring when it works and infuriating when it doesn't work.

Second as I've said about world design - it means that you play videogame levels, not something reminding real places. Thief 1 worked in levels with corridors, modern spiritual successors like Dishonored assume you won't find half of the things in the world unless you use special vision.

Third, Gothic world was 200 meters wide and consisted of boxes with everything important clearly visible.

If looking at map or following a written directions is an entertaining intellectual activity for you then I'd advise you to play EuroTruck Simulator or similar games.

And disabling quest markers will usually lead to problems, as Prey has recently shown me. It works fine in most cases, but good luck finding a tiny human corpse outside the huge space station in zero g without any markers. There isn't even a map of the exterior. You are completely lost. Modern games are designed with quest markers in mind first.

But that's the point. They've designed a space station that feels like a spacestation. You can't make a place both big, detailed, realistic and playable. You have to sacrifice something - or you put a quest marker that would save you several minutes of boringness, just as instant healing saves you from spending a realistic month in a clinic.

 

[G.O.D]

Quest compass and markers besides being added for dumbdumbs probably are also there to ensure that players won't miss out on any locations, quests and content in general. As if it is a necessity to explore a whole game the first playtrough.
With games like Skyrim that is perhaps understandable because nothing you complete actually affects the game in a major way so you might as well finish it up in one run, unlike Fallout (1, 2 and Vegas) for example.
To be fair - neither did Morrowind but that game at least facilitated different builds, politics and faction interaction. It was very much possible to find new things in different playtroughs because the lack of markers and compass.

 

[TC Jr]

I enjoy having them, it means when my brain shuts down every 5 minutes and I don't forget what to do.
Seriously though, I think it's the same reasons movies have went to shit, these games need to be accessible to third-worlders/retards etc.

 

[Sigourn]

I don't get how you can unironically first talk about quest markers in this diminishing way and then giving a perfect example of what I was talking about. Detailed world with lots of stuff in it means that you can no longer put a single item into a dungeon and be confident that any player finds it. Even in a relatively mild example in a game that is ridden with quest markers you've googled the solution in a rare quest that doesn't help you navigate through the world.

Now you are the one who missed my point: Bethesda did good with that one quest because the reward absolutely breaks the economy. No quest markers were needed, because quest markers would break the game in that particular quest (again, find them all and you are set for life). It's akin to my "book in a library" example: the massive reward substitutes the need for quest markers.

This is incidentally THE BIGGEST FUCKING ISSUE IN ALL OF SKYRIM.

Not only are sidequests braindead matters of "follow the arrow", but the rewards themselves are FUCKING LAUGHABLE because they all require you to find one item in a cave full of shit, or in a location full of enemies. And the game is littered with those kind of quests, so the player would become overpowered way too quickly if the game bothered to give you proper rewards (with no quest markers, of course).

Ideally these quests we are speaking of would compromise, say, less than 10% of a game's total quests (probably less than 5%). In Skyrim, these are probably 50% of the quests. You've got to realize that Skyrim didn't need quest markers; Skyrim forced quest markers by virtue of making most of its quests "find a needle in a haystack" ("find my helmet", "find my book", "find my virginity" and so on), and no one has time for 100 of those quests in one single game.

Did I mention devs want to cut corners and that's why they add quest markers? In Skyrim, this is coupled with another issue: most of its quests send you all over the map for no real reason other than "we need the player to spend time on this game". Now imagine... imagine if people didn't fast travel all the time in Skyrim.

First it doesn't look like you've played Morrowind at any length. Otherwise you'd knew that this direction system means that numerous quests can't be completed without googling. It often didn't work in low-polygon world of Morrowind. So this is what you think you want, it's boring when it works and infuriating when it doesn't work.

I have played Morrowind at length. I must have over 300 hours in Morrowind, which makes it one of my top three played RPGs, alongside Skyrim and Fallout: New Vegas (so I know those games very well too). "Numerous" quests... how many? That I recall, there's only a handful. Probably the most infuriating of which was meant to be a difficult task.

If looking at map or following a written directions is an entertaining intellectual activity for you then I'd advise you to play EuroTruck Simulator or similar games.

If you don't find certain things exciting or rewarding, then maybe you shouldn't criticize them. Notice how what you suggest ("quest markers are fine!") tends to fuck things up for the rest of us. It's the "who the fuck finds these things fun anyway?" mentality that gives birth to games like Skyrim, where without quest markers it is impossible to deliver even a fucking item in the same town.

 

[Cael]

There are good reasons why I use maps ALL the time and not the GPS only as a back-up. The frigging thing once had me about 200m to one side of where I actually was, and given that I was on a bridge crossing a freaking bay, take a wild guess as to where the GPS said I was...

 

[Zombra]

Especially in this case when you advocate for quick mindless solution to be replaced with a long mindless solution.

Linguistic description and comprehension aren't mindless. That's the point.

 

[polo]

Compass, marker, and GPU are fundamental in every RPG. I don't need to read anything now, just go to where the game points, *click, click click*, boom new pointer, go kill something, and done. Love it, no more tedious reading, and thinking about stuff, ew, thinking.

 

[Iznaliu]

Compass, marker, and GPU are fundamental in every RPG. I don't need to read anything now, just go to where the game points, *click, click click*, boom new pointer, go kill something, and done. Love it, no more tedious reading, and thinking about stuff, ew, thinking.

This is a perfect Bethesda customer testimonial; maybe we can send it to them so they can put it on their website.

 

[polo]

Compass, marker, and GPU are fundamental in every RPG. I don't need to read anything now, just go to where the game points, *click, click click*, boom new pointer, go kill something, and done. Love it, no more tedious reading, and thinking about stuff, ew, thinking.

This is a perfect Bethesda customer testimonial; maybe we can send it to them so they can put it on their website.

Godd Howard feels my love, no need for testimonials.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I think the easy, cop-out justification for not having detailed descriptions/good level design/vague maps stimulating the player to engage in some intellectual activity in trying to find a mcguffin is that now everyone just looks it up on the internet and, to some extent, that is true - although it shouldn't be a justification for game developers not doing their fucking jobs.

It is true that most people will just look up the solution to a problem because not figuring it out in the first 2 minutes will make them feel dumb - the challenge is resisting the temptation to do away with the problem entirely because of that. It's a compound issue - games now are not niche, they're part of the mass media, and people who play games think they're entitled to seeing everything everyone else sees, otherwise they're not 'getting their money's worth'. This is very different from 30 years ago when it was simply a given that not everyone would finish games, or even make significant progress in them - this was a given even to people playing the games themselves.

Adventure games faced a similar conundrum, with possible interactions and the interfaces to support them being gutted year after year, so much so that the end result were railroaded one-click games and the abomination that is Telltale style garbage. Just imagine how far that is from the rich Legend Entertainment text adventures, for example.

As with everything, compromise is necessary. I don't think we'll ever go back to Thief level design, with its wonderfully vague maps that stimulated the player to actually figure out the level, with quality level design to back that stimulus and provide payoff.

 

[anvi]

I think there could still be games like that, they would just need to be 'niche'. Gaming has grown so big that niche games of today can be similar budget to the Baldurs Gate, Thief, type games of the late 90s early 00s. So we should still be able to get plenty of good stuff. But yea, EA, Ubi, etc. are never going to make anything other than dumb shit for console dude bros.

 

[Iznaliu]

I think there could still be games like that, they would just need to be 'niche'. Gaming has grown so big that niche games of today can be similar budget to the Baldurs Gate, Thief, type games of the late 90s early 00s. So we should still be able to get plenty of good stuff. But yea, EA, Ubi, etc. are never going to make anything other than dumb shit for console dude bros.

The issue is that there are more expenses stacked on top of things as well, as gaming becomes a more "serious" industry and acquires all of the trappings of that. Additionally, increasing expectations of graphical quality end up guzzling quite a lot of the cost.

 

[anvi]

Gaming can be cheaper now than ever before because of things like Unity. The mainstream is just obsessed with graphics and expensive voice overs and overpriced crappy music, so they have to spend a fortune to make a mainstream game, and can't risk putting any complex gameplay in there.

 

[Iznaliu]

Gaming can be cheaper now than ever before because of things like Unity. The mainstream is just obsessed with graphics and expensive voice overs and overpriced crappy music, so they have to spend a fortune to make a mainstream game, and can't risk putting any complex gameplay in there.

Unfortunately, the niche represented by this website is pretty small.

 

[anvi]

This website is kind of extremist though, there are people who whine about shit like RTWP which makes no sense, and people who have never even tried an MMO, etc. My EQ threads have like 3 people that comment yet that game was a huge success, had millions of players, and is more hardcore than almost any other game ever made. The Arma series is kinda similar, they make the same game each time, terrible gimpy UI, full of bugs, crappy single player, but the series keeps growing because it has a loyal niche audience of people who want a wargame that isn't dumb. Then there is the X series of space games, all the building games like Factorio, etc. Lots of niches out there and some are really big. A million sales of DoS2 is a good sign. Smart games are never going to be as big as the dumb mainstream ones, but at least they can be big enough to support themselves.

 

[c2007]

As a fairly ordinary 13/14 year old, I remember playing Ultima III for the first time.

I had a copy of the cracked game from JJ Chips BBS, which I downloaded at 1200baud (using somebodies MCI account since I hacked those a fair bit, mostly for prank calls, but I digress). I had copied the cloth map at school, so I had that to go by...

I could go on, but won't as others already have. My comment is this:

When mapping the moon phases and building my moon door table, which no one told me to do - I had recognized that the randomness I thought was there wasn't so random --

Testing the moon doors man. What happened to testing moon doors? Drawing in your map, making marks on it, having to take notes.

I know it sounds dry as hell, but I was having a good time and actually using my noodle.

Smart games are never going to be as big as the dumb mainstream ones, but at least they can be big enough to support themselves.

Really, all I'm looking for is a smart game with a strong element of escapism, not entirely based on constant murder. Hard ticket these days.

 

[Beastro]

Seeing that clip of the reviewer playing Cuphead makes me wonder how many have a mentality like that....