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Quests are useless

barghwata

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It's a bit of both, that's why handcrafted maps and dungeons will always be superior to randomly "procedurally" generated shit.

I'd say it's a little of both.

There is an important technical/design element to it, but doing it well also requires a certain level of talent/feeling for it.

Edit: Darth Canoli beat me to it.

Agreed, if it was only science then anyone could do it and yet i still haven't found anything that managed to even approach Deus Ex's level design just yet.
 
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Lilura

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You say this, yet you dismiss the so-called golden era, which was exactly this for the most part, and praise the Renaissance era, which put far more attention to narrative for the most part.

There is nothing comparable to Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or ToEE in the Golden Age (not even Dark Sun, Darklands or Jagged Alliance). The Renaissance era is the engineering/coder era due to APIs and super-talent. The Golden Age has neither. In the Golden Age, as a rule, PCs were stuck with DOS, limited storage/RAM, limited color palette, tiny sprites, shitty sound, and could not even scroll an isometric viewport smoothly (which the Amiga and even the consoles could do because they had custom chipsets for hardware scrolling).

There was good coding/engineering before 1996 (in fact, some of the best ever), but the talent weren't making RPGs. They were making flight-sims, Doom, space-sims such as Frontier (vectors, flat-shaded stuff, the first texture mapping) and strategy games (complex AI). And why? Because all the PC had going for it at that time was HARD DRIVE and CLOCKRATE/MEGAHERTZ.

What if you consider level design an art form unto itself, comparable to painting or sculpting?

Because level design definitely is an art form like this, and games like Deus Ex and Thief are the perfect examples of level design as an art done right (RPGs with good dungeons also apply).

I'm wary of anyone who refers to any aspect of gaming as "an artform"; it's not something to be thrown about lightly.

I comment on technical specifications of arts assets (such as number of frames in sprite animation cycles, dimensions of areas, and so on), rather than just being an idiot and saying "Wow, it's so artistic. This is ART." Fuck those people; they're useless.
 
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JarlFrank

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I'm wary of anyone who refers to any aspect of gaming as "an artform"; it's not something to be thrown about lightly.

I comment on technical specifications of arts assets (such as number of frames in sprite animation cycles, dimensions of areas, and so on), rather than just being an idiot and saying "Wow, it's so artistic. This is ART." Fuck those people.

I think it depends on your definition of "art", or what you understand by the term. Yeah, nowadays art is thrown around as this fuzzy term of "if it makes me feel things it's art!!!!" to justify modern abominations such as Jackson Pollock's diarrhea-covered canvasses. But the original meaning of the term also implied craft, the original Latin word "ars" explicitly can mean both. To practice an art is to be an artisan, someone with a high skill in his field who can create perfect examples of that field's products. Painters and sculptors in the past were true artists: masters of the technical skill, able to produce great works that impressed everyone. A da Vinci, a Michelangelo was an absolute master at his craft. You cannot be a true artist if you are not a good craftsman.

This is why I compared level design directly to painting and sculpting as artforms. It requires a high degree of technical skill (understanding of architecture - which is also an art upon itself -, encounter design, gameplay flow etc) along with the creativity required to come up with something interesting. And unlike modern art, which is just a bunch of monkeys pretending to be artists randomly throwing paint on a canvas and claiming it has a message, these classical arts can be objectively rated by the level of competence displayed by its creators. A mediocre artist might have issues depicting light and shadow, for example, while a master is so good at it he can allow himself to play with it, creating things like the chiaroscuro style for example.

Level design is exactly like that, too. You can objectively rate elements of it based on the technical skill of the author (I've played so many Thief fan missions by now, I can spot amateur mistakes from mere screenshots), but the end result also carries something of the designer's creativity and personality. Because that's what true art is: high technical skill + personal creative input of the artist.
 
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Lilura

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Why are you lecturing me on art Jarl? Is there an RPG commentator/forum-goer who has written more on art assets than myself? No, there isn't. I've got artistic appreciation all through my commentary. It's just that I stop short of calling it art (because that's pretentious). I use "artwork" and "art assets". Yes, there can be artistic area design but I don't call it art. Or if I do, it's not in that superlative, transcendent way.

I'd be more impressed if devs approach dungeon design as a science, rather than an art.

Anyway, this all came about because someone contended that adding narrative into a game turns it from "mere entertainment" into "art."

What a load of shit.
 

Atchodas

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Apr 23, 2015
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Well since you mention PoE in OP I can see where the frustration is coming from.

Not all games have shit quests like PoE.
 

Atchodas

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I do agree with many said here that quests should, for the most part, be aquaired trough more natural means (they should go hand in hand with exploration, game mechanics and not quest givers).

Dont need to look far for that D:OS games has exactly this , yes there is a quest giver here and there but most quests you just get while exploring the game world and quite often need to investigate further yourself to even start progressing the quest, also whenever I get "standard" go there kill that quest in D:OS games I know I'm fucked and should just leave this quest for later they are never simple like that (literally never.) or the target is extremely strong and far away and even getting to him will be journey on its own
 

biggestboss

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Haven't read through this thread yet but I remember JarlFrank having a comprehensive post about this not too long ago.
 

Roguey

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There is nothing comparable to Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or ToEE in the Golden Age

True, but even the first two had dedicated writers (Brenda Romero and Josh Mandel for JA2, Shaun Lyng for SS). They'd be lesser games if NPCs didn't have any dialogue to speak of at all. ToEE is most peoples' least favorite Troika game because it lacks good writing and it doesn't have enough quality combat to make up for its absence.

I comment on technical specifications of arts assets (such as number of frames in sprite animation cycles, dimensions of areas, and so on)

This is endearingly aspie.
 
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Lilura

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There is nothing comparable to Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or ToEE in the Golden Age

True, but even the first two had dedicated writers (Brenda Romero and Josh Mandel for JA2, Shaun Lyng for SS). They'd be lesser games if NPCs didn't have any dialogue to speak of at all. ToEE is most peoples' least favorite Troika game because it lacks good writing and it doesn't have enough quality combat to make up for its absence.

I didn't say "burn all writers," Roguey. I said RPG narrative should amount to about 20% (at the most).

What ToEE has, is a top-tier combat system, top-tier ruleset implementation, and solid replayability due to builds and party composition concerns. This, and the fact that it has a megadungeon with horde-based combat encounter design, puts it many rungs above the edgy, hipster popomole that is Vampire Bloodlines (which devolves into clunky hack n slash in its final quarter).

This is endearingly aspie.

Stating facts about art assets is useful when assessing technical and artistic achievements. Going "Wow, this game's ART. I love it!" isn't useful.
 

Damned Registrations

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The thing about 'quests' is that they're better the more options you have for how to solve them. And steal/talk/fight is actually a totally shit number of options compared to the countless ways you can outfit a party for combat and exploration and lead them through a decent dungeon. So the best 'quest' is invariably 'get to the end of this large and elaborate dungeon.' Or something even more vague, like 'acquire a shitton of money, whether by dungeon crawling or whatever else.' When you start to pin things down to having to interact with specific people in specific orders with very little else going on in between these interactions, things get predictable and dull. I've you're not levelling up and equipping newly found gear during a quest, the quest is probably shit.
 

Valky

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Firstly, stop using the fucking term art to describe anything related to video games. It's a meaningless buzzword spewed by liberals who are trying to authenticate their decision to worm their way into video games and convince their peers that they are respectable adults.

If a game does something really good, just say so. Call it realgoodstuff, but don't be a fucking faggot and use the word art.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
When I hear about being sent on a quest, I think grand things. I think journeys, adventure, danger, reward that matches the death defying antics you've set to embark on, thrills and plenty of kills.

But instead you'll get shit like, "I have a quest for you. My tavern has RATS in the cellar. Go kill 'em." That's not a QUEST. A quest is about glory and legend. When you're on a quest you have the Conan the Barbarian OST playing in your head constantly. It's bravery and heroism.

That's why I propose, to bring back the honor to the term "QUEST" we separate a QUEST from a TASK. Tasks are the shitty quests we all know of. Fetch quests, courier runs, moving from Point A to Point B with little engagement, it's stuff that isn't cool. It's actually really boring, but it's easy experience and you may find something that could lead to a QUEST.

Then when you get the fabled quest, it's pure excitement. You know it'll be good. You know this is what it's all about. QUESTS.
 

JarlFrank

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When I hear about being sent on a quest, I think grand things. I think journeys, adventure, danger, reward that matches the death defying antics you've set to embark on, thrills and plenty of kills.

But instead you'll get shit like, "I have a quest for you. My tavern has RATS in the cellar. Go kill 'em." That's not a QUEST. A quest is about glory and legend. When you're on a quest you have the Conan the Barbarian OST playing in your head constantly. It's bravery and heroism.

That's why I propose, to bring back the honor to the term "QUEST" we separate a QUEST from a TASK. Tasks are the shitty quests we all know of. Fetch quests, courier runs, moving from Point A to Point B with little engagement, it's stuff that isn't cool. It's actually really boring, but it's easy experience and you may find something that could lead to a QUEST.

Then when you get the fabled quest, it's pure excitement. You know it'll be good. You know this is what it's all about. QUESTS.

There is truth in there.

The quest for the Holy Grail didn't involve the knights of the round table just going on a quick shopping trip to the supermarket next door because King Arthur was too lazy to go himself and promised a 100 gold reward to whoever would do the thing for him.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
Can someone list games that have such overwhelming gameplay that no quests are needed ?
ToEE was mentioned but it has quests, many quests so it is obviously not a legitimate example.

Silent Storm, Silent Storm Sentinels, and Hammer & Sickle.

Other than the main story advancement, they have almost no quest at all.

What they has is the shining gameplay.

You realize that you fail by including the word almost ?

But i am also at fault, i should rephrase my post into

Can someone list rpgs that have such overwhelming gameplay that no quests are needed ?

Before someone mentions Tetris or Pong ...
 

Roguey

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Stating facts about art assets is useful when assessing technical and artistic achievements. Going "Wow, this game's ART. I love it!" isn't useful.
Art criticism is its own thing, though most people (myself included) don't have the vocabulary for it. :)
 

Damned Registrations

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Can someone list rpgs that have such overwhelming gameplay that no quests are needed ?

Do you consider the win condition of something like Rogue to be a quest? Or Nethack, for that matter? I think in the context of the genre, we can narrow the meaning to something in the form of talking to an NPC, being required to do X specific thing, and having some arbitrary reward (the worst type being deus ex machina plot progression.) Needing a particular object to enter a particular location isn't a quest.

I actually don't mind sidequests nearly as much. Having some farmer offer you some sort of reward in exchange for doing some shit he can't himself is reasonable enough as an alternative to other means of gathering wealth or xp or whatever. It's contrived plot bullshit that aggravates me. Making me stop and go talk to some random npc so we can open a door or proceed through some checkpoint or whatever isn't gameplay, it's a narrative dump at best. Which might be fine if I'm dying to learn more of the narrative, but I'm probably not so keep it fucking optional.
 

Lurker47

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Because storyfaggotry has had its run. It's time for the pendulum to swing the other way. And after that, it doesn't center itself. Instead, it settles at 85% combat, 15% story/questing/lore.

That's fabulously optimistic in this faggot-era, but that would be my ideal.
OK, Caesar.
 

Lurker47

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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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I think in the context of the genre, we can narrow the meaning to something in the form of talking to an NPC, being required to do X specific thing, and having some arbitrary reward (the worst type being deus ex machina plot progression.)

I guess it depends on how specific "X specific thing" is, how you define talking to an NPC, and how you define arbitrary reward.

"Find a replacement water chip" in Fallout is certainly a quest. But it doesn't necessarily involve talking to anyone (you can talk to people and usually will in order to find the thing, but if you already know where to go you can just charge in and grab it). Theoretically it doesn't even have to be one specific thing, Fallout would work just as well (I would argue it would work even better) if there was more than one water chip in the game. The arbitrary reward for getting the water chip is... uh... the population of your Vault doesn't die of dehydration. Yeah, there is no arbitrary reward, just logical consequences.

None of your points are mandatory for a quest.
 

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