Rant on Worldbuilding and Classes

[lukaszek]

There is any game which delivers a satisfactory "craftsman' dwarf gameplay?

arcanum, maybe soulash

 

[Hace El Oso]

There is a reason why video game writing is so many levels worse than actual literature, and it has nothing to do with the medium. It's because the audience for video games is degenerate and of lesser intelligence, and they actively want to consume an inferior world/story/product.

I agree wholeheartedly with the point you’re making with the thread, but I disagree that video games are so much more poorly written than literature or that the audience is inherently degenerate. Baldur’s Gate, for example, was firmly on the level of an enjoyable contemporary adventure novel, say ‘The Eaters of the Dead’. The audiences overlapped totally.

Now, no decent literature is produced at all and what is put out is written by women for women, because all the younger men are illiterate and only women read anymore.

The degeneration is culture-wide, world-wide. Video game audiences are retarded because almost everyone under 30 is.

 

[ItsChon]

gnomes or halflings, but not both.

didn't even lotr have both

the hobbit did

Citation needed.

it's in the first edition

You're so fucking stupid Rusty, stop shitting up my thread with your retardation.

The terms Gnomes and Noldoli were used for many decades in J.R.R. Tolkien's earlier phases of his legendarium to describe the race of Elves that would become the Noldor.

The names of the Noldoli are in the Gnomish or Noldorin languages.

...

However, by the time Tolkien began to draft the material that became the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings in the late 1940s, the problems with the term were recognized, and eventually it was deemed "too misleading" due to confusion with the popular concept of gnomes.

Tolkien used the word gnomes to refer to a different subspecies of Elves, and he dropped the name because retards like Rusty thought he was referring to the popular concept of gnomes.

It's the mark of a bad DM if it only comes with the default rewards rather than detriments. In the case of Aasimar, they get to be the center of attention, including the wrong kind of attention. If I were running it, I can guarantee you I'd be throwing in a plot to abduct this character to be sold into slavery or used in some sort of dark ritual. If the big-tiddied blonde cleric is born of god's blood or via the fornication of humans and nephilim, you can bet that there will be a crowd of simps in every town looking for their own taste of the divine, some of them malicious. Either way, the character won't be getting a moment's peace anywhere near civilization.

See but your suggestion of how to actually make things interesting hinges upon the prerequisite that Aasimar are rare in the world. If someone wanted to make an RPG where the central character was an Aasimar, and the story revolved around said MC's struggle with the things you described, that would be a great concept for a game. The problem is that's not how these races are implemented. They're implemented in away where they're hardly more than rare oddities. This is literally the point I am trying to make.

Most of your post just sounds like another person who don't understand the point of fantasy in general and high fantasy in particular.
Why don't you just go on and look another genre?

I understand the point of high fantasy. I'm just trying to make a point about how it's absolutely shit right now, and unless you have a very specific vision for your high fantasy world/RPG, your product will be better if you make it low fantasy.

What you call a "major decline" is a long-established standard by now. Personally I do like different races, provided they are actually different in a meaningful and interesting way. If it's just a skin, then it's pointless and I agree we're better off without it.

Lots of long-established standards are major decline. And your standard for what is sufficiently "different" likely differs from what the standard should actually be.

Everyone needs to be a special snowflake, playing their own specific class with their own specific backstory and brand of furry or metahuman.

In case you haven't noticed, this is a forum for escapist fantasy video games. We're all share the desire to come home after a long day of work to escape into a fantasy world where our actions are meaningful. That is the very purpose of fantasy. Being a special snowflake goes hand in hand with fantasy.

Lmfao. No wonder you people need to escape. Imagine thinking you need to be a special snowflake to be able to act in a meaningful way.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You're so fucking stupid Rusty, stop shitting up my thread with your retardation.

that's some next level butthurt at me being right

 

[Nortar]

So, since I'm not a huge melee or dwarf fan I wanna ask the people who likes them. There is any game which delivers a satisfactory "craftsman' dwarf gameplay?

Ok, the best "craftsman dwarf" experience I ever had was in EQ2.
My character was a dwarf templar (cleric-healer in heavy armor) who also was a weaposmith.

Back in the day crafting in EQ2 was brutal.
Not only you could easily fail at making an item and lose materials,
but the forge could fucking kill the smith if he was not paying attention.

Anyways, there was a "secret" recipe for Wyrmsteel weapons that dealt additional damage to dragons (including the dragon Nagafen, the end-game boss at the time).

These Wyrmsteel weapons could only be crafted at a special forge inside a raid-zone located deep in Lavastorm, the fire giants territory.
I had to plan and prepare for the expedition, stocking up on coals, oils and resins - as there was no friendly merchants to supply you with shit on the spot.
And it took a 2-groups raid (12 people) to fight off constant waves of enemies, while I was forging wyrmsteel.

Now that was just epic.
Forging amidst the raging battle, with guildmates fighting and dying one by one to give me just a bit of extra time at the forge.
No wipe and repeat shit, we only had one shot.
This kind of glorious dwarven smith experience is just not possible when all you have to do is click "combine" button to get your new shiny item crafted.

And yeah, we killed Naggy not long after.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

See but your suggestion of how to actually make things interesting hinges upon the prerequisite that Aasimar are rare in the world. If someone wanted to make an RPG where the central character was an Aasimar, and the story revolved around said MC's struggle with the things you described, that would be a great concept for a game. The problem is that's not how these races are implemented. They're implemented in away where they're hardly more than rare oddities. This is literally the point I am trying to make.

Oh, I agree that they should be rare which is why I'm fine with players playing one in tabletop or in a crpg, but as I said the game/dm needs to acknowledge it and act accordingly. I didn't necessarily mean center the entire campaign around that player, though it could be done I suppose, if desired.

 

[Humbaba]

It's bad because when everything in your world is fantastical and extraordinary, nothing is special. Take a look at the Aasimar race as an example. They're often characterized as being taller and more beautiful than humans. In many settings they are the progeny of gods or otherworldly beings, and have uncommonly long lifespans. This is literally the textbook example of a special snowflake race that adds nothing to the setting the vast majority of the time, and solely servers as a vehicle in which neckbeards can further escape from the drudgery of their terrible lives.

Don't play Aasimar then, this should be obvious. If you get upset at what races other people pick then that's a literal symptom of autism.

The same thing applies to classes. It's not enough to be a fighter anymore. Everyone has to be a super holly blessed death knight of awesomeness, with five different powers that give you the advantage of the dude standing across from you with a sword. How about instead of selecting a class at the start of your playthrough, you instead have to go through a long quest chain, where you delve deep into some sort of heretical religion that is intertwined with a universes god of death. You start off as innocently curious, but this curiosity leads to you committing heinous deeds, all in the name for this incomprehensible entity that you are devoting your soul too. At the end of it, the transformation is complete, and you are blessed/cursed by this malevolent entity, and the a death knight is born. Anyone with half a brain could see the potential something like this has, and it truly adds to the scope and magnitude of such a thing.

Wrathfinder has that.

The point of my statement is that most games are the opposite of good story telling. There is a reason why video game writing is so many levels worse than actual literature, and it has nothing to do with the medium. It's because the audience for video games is degenerate and of lesser intelligence, and they actively want to consume an inferior world/story/product.

You're actually deranged if you seriously believe that people WANT something that's worse than something else.

Any time someone is thinking about adding a race to their setting/game, they should ask themselves, "Do I need to make an entirely new race so that this story I'm trying to tell and this world I'm trying to build can function? Or, can I accomplish the same purpose with humans?" The vast majority of races are just superficial reskins of humans, and are entirely unnecessary. There are exceptions of course, but that doesn't invalidate my point that unless you have a specific reason for including a new race, it shouldn't be added to the setting.

State one such reason.

You fucking idiot, the whole reason I'm shitting on everyone wanting to be a special snowflake is that it turns everything mundane and ordinary. The idea of Magic is as special as it gets, but in a universe where everyone and their mother can throw fireballs. what's the point? Dogshit poster acting like they got some sort of a gotcha moment.

So you do want things to be special. Does the neckbeard need a vehicle in which he can escape from the drudgery of his terrible life?

I'm not discrediting it you mongoloid. There are exceptional writers and designers who can break these rules, but doing so requires a full understanding of why these rules are in place, as well as how and when you can break them. The fact is, the vast majority of game/setting concepts would not benefit from breaking these rules however, and would face much improvement if they followed these rules.

You really need to stop referring to your own autistic musings as "rules" people should abide by, because everything you're saying here is garbage.

 

[ItsChon]

Don't play Aasimar then, this should be obvious. If you get upset at what races other people pick then that's a literal symptom of autism.

You ignorant dumb fuck. Whether or not I'm playing an Aasimar doesn't change the fact that the setting I'm roleplaying in has these gay ass metahumans strewn around left and right. A game like Pathfinder, where every other character is a Tiefling, or Aasimar, or Half-Orc, or Elf, each offering no more to the narrative than a human with the same personality, is the literal definition of decline. How the fuck am I supposed to get excited by a half-demon spawn when they're literally slice of life roleplaying in the nearest tavern? Where is the wonder and mysticism that should be associated with Elves when they are literally just as common and just as flawed as the average human? It's not that I don't think the idea of different races to humans isn't cool, but the way they are executed is what makes them gay as fuck.

Wrathfinder has that.

I couldn't be arsed to know that because the game itself has terrible combat, writing, and subpar art direction, thus making the game shit.

You're actually deranged if you seriously believe that people WANT something that's worse than something else.

You're so fucking stupid. Someone addicted to crack cocaine will fiend for it, even though that's far worse for them than being sober. This is best illustrated by the popularity of Marvel movies. This is what the average kwan wants. An empty, hollow experience, filled with generic and cliched plot points, unfunny wise cracking, and nothing remotely intellectually stimulating. The result, years upon years of absolutely terrible cinema. The video game industry is in much the same sinking boat, but the indie industry has thrown everyone aboard a life raft.

State one such reason.

I will reiterate, because by emphasizing humans and using them to their full potential, the inclusion of other races and mystical elements will only be all the more effective and impactful.

So you do want things to be special. Does the neckbeard need a vehicle in which he can escape from the drudgery of his terrible life?

You're literally retarded. Just because your life is filled with mindless consumption and degeneracy, and your dopamine receptors are completely shot, doesn't mean mine are. My life is full of special and awesome shit, so why wouldn't I want my video games to reflect that? When you do it, it's escapism, when I do it, it's relatable. Cope harder virgin.

You really need to stop referring to your own autistic musings as "rules" people should abide by, because everything you're saying here is garbage.

Lets not forget that the portion of my post that you quoted was a rebuttal to your claim that I'm discrediting myself. You abandoning that point and just throwing shit is your admission of failure.

 

[Saravan]

You ignorant dumb fuck. Whether or not I'm playing an Aasimar doesn't change the fact that the setting I'm roleplaying in has these gay ass metahumans strewn around left and right. A game like Pathfinder, where every other character is a Tiefling, or Aasimar, or Half-Orc, or Elf, each offering no more to the narrative than a human with the same personality, is the literal definition of decline. How the fuck am I supposed to get excited by a half-demon spawn when they're literally slice of life roleplaying in the nearest tavern? Where is the wonder and mysticism that should be associated with Elves when they are literally just as common and just as flawed as the average human? It's not that I don't think the idea of different races to humans isn't cool, but the way they are executed is what makes them gay as fuck.

You are wasting your time, that guy is actually too mentally challenged to understand this.

 

[Humbaba]

You ignorant dumb fuck. Whether or not I'm playing an Aasimar doesn't change the fact that the setting I'm roleplaying in has these gay ass metahumans strewn around left and right. A game like Pathfinder, where every other character is a Tiefling, or Aasimar, or Half-Orc, or Elf, each offering no more to the narrative than a human with the same personality, is the literal definition of decline. How the fuck am I supposed to get excited by a half-demon spawn when they're literally slice of life roleplaying in the nearest tavern? Where is the wonder and mysticism that should be associated with Elves when they are literally just as common and just as flawed as the average human? It's not that I don't think the idea of different races to humans isn't cool, but the way they are executed is what makes them gay as fuck.

I'm very sorry that your favourite race is no longer special.

I couldn't be arsed to know that because the game itself has terrible combat, writing, and subpar art direction, thus making the game shit.

Pleb taste then.

You're so fucking stupid. Someone addicted to crack cocaine will fiend for it, even though that's far worse for them than being sober. This is best illustrated by the popularity of Marvel movies. This is what the average kwan wants. An empty, hollow experience, filled with generic and cliched plot points, unfunny wise cracking, and nothing remotely intellectually stimulating. The result, years upon years of absolutely terrible cinema. The video game industry is in much the same sinking boat, but the indie industry has thrown everyone aboard a life raft.

Let's leave the goal posts in the video gaming industry ok?

I will reiterate, because by emphasizing humans and using them to their full potential, the inclusion of other races and mystical elements will only be all the more effective and impactful.

Play a human then, no one's stopping you.

inb4 NOOOO HUMANS NEED TO BE SPECIAL, get over yourself snowflake.

You're literally retarded. Just because your life is filled with mindless consumption and degeneracy, and your dopamine receptors are completely shot, doesn't mean mine are. My life is full of special and awesome shit, so why wouldn't I want my video games to reflect that? When you do it, it's escapism, when I do it, it's relatable. Cope harder virgin.

Lets not forget that the portion of my post that you quoted was a rebuttal to your claim that I'm discrediting myself. You abandoning that point and just throwing shit is your admission of failure.

Cope harder virgin.

 

[Humbaba]

You are wasting your time, that guy is actually too mentally challenged to understand this.

Following me around out of sheer assmadness I see, lmao.

 

[Saravan]

You are wasting your time, that guy is actually too mentally challenged to understand this.

Following me around out of sheer assmadness I see, lmao.

I read this thread before you even posted retard. I'm not the one running to profile walls to be buttmad.

 

[Humbaba]

I read this thread before you even posted retard. I'm not the one running to profile walls to be buttmad.

QQ more faggot. Self-eject if you can't take the bantz.

 

[Saravan]

I read this thread before you even posted retard. I'm not the one running to profile walls to be buttmad.

QQ more faggot. Self-eject if you can't take the bantz.

What are you even talking about? I don't give a shit that you did, but pretty funny talking about "following around".

 

[Humbaba]

I don't give a shit that you did

Then stop crying about it, cunt.

 

[JarlFrank]

TL;DR - Human centric low fantasy.

Perfection.

Yes.

Sword & Sorcery > High Fantasy

 

[Heroic Liberator]

TL;DR - Human centric low fantasy.

Perfection.

Yes.

Sword & Sorcery > High Fantasy

Crom approves.

 

[S.torch]

I understand the point of high fantasy.

Your entirely post suggest otherwise. Since you're complaining about things that are inherent to the genre. Is like someone who comes to a forum of romance books and starts complaining about how much love are in these books. So I ask again, why don't you better try with another genre? Because it looks like you already decided your mind on what you enjoy more.

Sword & Sorcery > High Fantasy

Says the person whose favourite games are Arcanum and Morrowind.

 

[Barbie]

I could sit here and write some long post explaining my thoughts on the matter, but instead I decided to shit out some random ramblings on this page.

It has become clear to me that the vast majority of Codexers are unbelievable faggots. I see this through the way that they roleplay, and the types of races/classes that they enjoy playing in their games. Everyone needs to be a special snowflake, playing their own specific class with their own specific backstory and brand of furry or metahuman. Looking at the hundred different classes and all these bullshit "exotic" races that are so popular now blows my mind. It's enough for me to lose any interest in any setting, regardless of how good the game could've been. You can't trust the average Codexer to differentiate a good setting from a bad one, and their tastes are only slightly above the lowest common denominator when it comes to such things.

Some other quick facts.

Fantasy worlds with a ton of different races in their setting is major decline. You get Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Orcs, and if you really want to push it, gnomes or halflings, but not both.

Stop making magic so fucking prevalent in your settings. The less magic you have, the more special you make it, and there is honestly so much potential for awesome story lines based around this.

Having a hundred different classes that all occupy some very specific niche is major decline. BG and IWD did it right by having four class groups which branched off into 8 total classes. KotC also did a great job by only having three classes. The game system that you have should be what is responsible for creating build diversity. Don't make a new class numbnuts, add ways for each player to differentiate how they build their character, so if you want to play a monk for example you can do so, but you'd still be called a fighter. We see this in Underrail, which is a classless system, but manages to have tens of different ways you can build your character into something resembling a class.

If you're going to go through the trouble of having multiple different cities/factions in your setting, make sure everything makes sense. Shit like Megaton in FO3 is ultimate decline. In IWD, we see the farms that supply a village like Kuldahar with their food. We see the farms in BG that supply Nashkel their food. We see hydroponics systems in certain stations, with the rest of the food being supplied by Camp Hathor in Underrail. We see the farms supplying the towns with food in FO. This is just one worldbuilding aspect of the many that need to go into making your world believable, interesting, and engaging.

You can break some of these rules, but if you're going to do so, you better have a good reason for it, it better enhance your setting, and you better know what the fuck you are doing.

I agree that classless systems are underrated. Concentrating on classes and their internal BALANCE limits out on actual precious development time. I wish more developers realised that you should have skills that work in synergy across the board to have more variety that way, rather than a 124 class roster with filler skills.

I do also agree that less is more and few interesting races and locations do better than jam-packed diversity that ends up just as shows of cultural philandering and ripping off various real life diaspora issues and cultures. No one should be using video games to form or discuss their real Life views on politics. If you need a video game to tell you that racism is bad, then you definitely should not be voting or eligible for any major real Life decision making. There is zero reason to pack in 6 extra races and waste development time from actual mechanics and gameplay in defining their views on shit like national holidays overlapping with tolerance of race xy.

I wish also more games went with daggerfall approach of Giant landmasses, but instead of nothing just have normal things on that journey. I wish locations and discoveries were paced out to be more special by developers rather than constantly bombarding in your face of shiny new things and locations. If your budget says no large cities, stop leaving it in the players imagination that it's bigger in reality (looking at you Bethesda and Obsidian) and instead just admit it's a shithole city or that it's a sparsely populated landmass. But at the same time, don't then force feed the player with constant bandit encounters such that the bandit mass is 10 times bigger than the whole country's army.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I agree that classless systems are underrated.

Good to hear, comrade.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Racism and bigotry bad? Tell that to just about every living creature on the planet. In the fight for survival living creatures kill off their competitors and some absolutely seem to hate certain competitors. Many races in a game? There sure as fuck better be some racism to a degree otherwise why the fuck are they killing each other or trying to conquer territory and become supreme dominators?

Too much of anything constantly shoved in your face is going to lessen the awe and surprise. Each person is going to have different levels of receptors. Shit, you might get burnt out first game and never go back or you'll be like this modern stream of uh... stuff, and devour it like a starving Otyugh.

Some games throw way too much shit at you (mostly those damn free to play app jap/korean games) that it just becomes a cluster-fuck of mechanics that mirror each other. There a little pizazz and color show to the "theme race/class." And maybe there's more than a bit of overpowered broken shit because devs thought it was KOOL. Whatever floats the boat for sales I guess.

Sometimes, multi-races/classes leads to replay of the game trying the near infinite possibilities but that game better be damn solid and fun to play or else it might barely be a full playthrough. Finishing said game only for the notch in the completion belt.

I think playing Temple of Apshai was one of the lowest fantasy diverse games I played. You're a human, you can't cast spells. You might find magic armor, swords, potions, arrows, or a ring/book, and sometimes Olias might rescue you but loot all your gear if you die. Fuck you ya greedy dwarf.

 

[Narax]

Fantasy worlds with a ton of different races in their setting is major decline. You get Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Orcs, and if you really want to push it, gnomes or halflings, but not both.

Having a hundred different classes that all occupy some very specific niche is major decline. BG and IWD did it right by having four class groups which branched off into 8 total classes. KotC also did a great job by only having three classes. The game system that you have should be what is responsible for creating build diversity. Don't make a new class numbnuts, add ways for each player to differentiate how they build their character, so if you want to play a monk for example you can do so, but you'd still be called a fighter. We see this in Underrail, which is a classless system, but manages to have tens of different ways you can build your character into something resembling a class.

Not every rpg needs to have a limited number of races and classes. Sometimes i am in the mood for isometric rpgs with a balanced system, sometimes i want to play eurojank with unbalanced classes, or an AAA rpg with reskinned races. That's what makes rpgs interesing, they're all different from one another.

Stop making magic so fucking prevalent in your settings. The less magic you have, the more special you make it, and there is honestly so much potential for awesome story lines based around this.

If magic is an integral and prevalent part of the world I don't see as to why it needs to feel "special".

If you're going to go through the trouble of having multiple different cities/factions in your setting, make sure everything makes sense. Shit like Megaton in FO3 is ultimate decline. In IWD, we see the farms that supply a village like Kuldahar with their food. We see the farms in BG that supply Nashkel their food. We see hydroponics systems in certain stations, with the rest of the food being supplied by Camp Hathor in Underrail. We see the farms supplying the towns with food in FO. This is just one worldbuilding aspect of the many that need to go into making your world believable, interesting, and engaging.

There is a huge difference between realism and needless details that don't add anything to the game. What's next? you want to see the taxman collect taxes from npcs?

You can break some of these rules, but if you're going to do so, you better have a good reason for it, it better enhance your setting, and you better know what the fuck you are doing.

I think you just want every rpg to fit your ideal view of low fantasy with a "realistic" morally grey setting (i thought people already got over that phase).

 

[JarlFrank]

Sword & Sorcery > High Fantasy

Says the person whose favourite games are Arcanum and Morrowind.

Both of which owe just as much to the Sword & Sorcery tradition as they do High Fantasy. Especially Morrowind feels a lot more Howard than Tolkien in its worldbuilding. Arcanum takes a lot of inspiration from Victorian sci-fi a la Jules Verne, which in turn inspired Sword and Sorcery (which is heavily inspired by 19th century adventure fiction).

On the surface, both games make heavy use of high fantasy trappings, but tonally they are much closer to S&S.

Besides, there barely are any S&S CRPGs, other than the Conan MMOs by Funcom.

 

[S.torch]

Besides, there barely are any S&S CRPGs, other than the Conan MMOs by Funcom.

Could be, but if you were coherent with yourself my fellow, your favourite games would be closer to the ideas that you praise. For example, you would prefer things like Kingdom Come, Expedition series and Darklands. I mean, even The Witcher which is known to drawn heavy inspiration from Elric stories is closer to the things you preach here. But none of these figure so high on your favourite list, and is obvious.

And since you say that "sci-fi" and "adventure fiction" are the inspiration for Arcanum (an affirmation which I consider to be some grade A copium), you should like Fallout instead who is way closer to sci-fi than Arcanum in every aspect and without none of the high fantasy in it. You can't even argue here a big difference in mechanics, because it was made by almost the same devs.

Yet, you choose above all those others, games that are way more akin to high fantasy or that directly belong on it, while using more grade A copium saying that they are closer to Howard than to Tolkien. Well, is that, or you haven't read Tolkien besides The Hobbit. Which I really hope you at least had done.

 

[Harthwain]

Lots of long-established standards are major decline.

It's the question of whether something that's considered a classic can be a decline. I think we both agree the problem is not the idea of races, but their implementation. Blindly copy-pasting the names and visuals of "classic" races is bad, but let's not forget that Tolkien put a lot of time and effort into worldbuilding, meaning all these races had their own languages, history, culture, etc. In DnD terms I would say Drow race is close to that approach. Morrowind is another example (Dark Elf culture, and "cultures within the culture", such as different customs between the Houses), which is backed up even further by having its own races, outside the standard repertoire (although in this day and age it would probably be accused of wokeism, on the grounds of injecting a furry-like races).

This is best illustrated by the popularity of Marvel movies. This is what the average kwan wants. An empty, hollow experience, filled with generic and cliched plot points, unfunny wise cracking, and nothing remotely intellectually stimulating. The result, years upon years of absolutely terrible cinema. The video game industry is in much the same sinking boat, but the indie industry has thrown everyone aboard a life raft.

I thought Marvel movies were pretty good, for mainstream media. Or at least some of them. I think video gaming industry can't reach even that level, which says something.