Rant on Worldbuilding and Classes

[Shadenuat]

The problem with magic is technocrats doing most of work and there is lack of savvy writers and artistic visionaries. When various techno laymen do poetry it always will look miserable.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Amazing read, thank you for linking it. I really wish someone would give a Shamanistic "magic" system a shot. I have a lot of different ideas on how you could make something that like fucking amazing, and the best part is that it would work even better with the introduction of a different race, such as Orcs. Regardless, more game developers should be reading shit like this if they want to put out a good product.

BRP/d100 has that kind of magic too, as mentioned in the article. Off the top of my head it can be found in RuneQuest, OpenQuest, Mythras and other supplements.

I have a few different ideas for magic, both practical magic used by characters and wild magic that just happens and complicates the plot. These are emphatically not the same.

One idea is to adapt the concept of qi from Chinese religions, maybe renaming it "orgone" or something to match the faux-Europe aesthetic. Cultivating orgone would allow martial artists to perform superhuman feats, which have been observed many times in Western folktales but never had a unifying explanation behind it like in Eastern folktales. I understand this might be controversial, tho

 

[Robotigan]

I genuinely don't understand why blindly copying Tolkien is better than having more unique races like the TES Argonians with a lot more interesting lore attached to them than DND's boring Halflings.

It's not, but importing Tolkien races is a good quality control measure to avoid cringey Werehog stuff. Tolkien was an accomplished linguist and literature professor with a wealth of knowledge into English and Germanic history and folklore. So when it came to crafting his own fantasy races and civilizations he not only had a lot of material to pull from but a keen sense of how pre-industrial civilizations worked, what ideas blend well with the subject matter, and how to focus his creativity in sensible ways. Most fantasy writers do not have the same expertise and it shows. Good creative writing requires discipline. For every dozen or so ideas that you come up with, maybe one will actually work in the story context.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Magic can be solved in RPGs by being dangerous to both the user and their surroundings. It can explain why magic is powerful yet not ubiquitous. It would constrain it to elite or taboo circles. The danger restores the mystique and also solves the problem of either starving the player of spells or making wizards flashy crossbows.

Recall the Wild Mage from Baldur's Gate 2:

• Every spell cast incurs +/- 5 caster levels to the effect
• Every spell cast incurs a 5% risk of a wild surge.
• Nahal's Reckless Dweamor, it's most iconic feature has a 100% wild surge chance.

The variable caster level is a big deal, and can neuter or even nullify your spells until you're caster level is in the teens. The 5% may not seem like much, but it will rear its head with some regularity--often at hilariously inopportune times. If you want to use the main feature of the kit, you're going to face the consequences. This was glorious, but I think it should be taken one step further.

Imagine the following:

• Wizards can cast any known/memorized spell at will.
• Wild surge rate is 5% per spell level, minus the caster level.
  • Wild surge severity is proportionate to the spell level. Minor spells might simply fail, major spells might result in the death of everything within 30-60' of the caster, including the caster.

Putting it in context to D&D, a Level 20 wizard would be able to cast Stoneskin, Fireballs, Web (Level 4 and less) without risk, but have a 25% chance to botch a Gate spell. The player is going to self-regulate in a very natural manner that is consistent with the setting. It also gives an interesting level of tactics to change the odds for friends or foes with your own spells, abilities, items, etc.. I've made a homebrew RPG that does (with a non D20 dice pool) and it works marvelously. Dangerous magic, is how you solve magic. The developer just needs to have vision and courage to do it.

 

[Barbie]

Magic can be solved in RPGs by being dangerous to both the user and their surroundings. It can explain why magic is powerful yet not ubiquitous. It would constrain it to elite or taboo circles. The danger restores the mystique and also solves the problem of either starving the player of spells or making wizards flashy crossbows.

Recall the Wild Mage from Baldur's Gate 2:

• Every spell cast incurs +/- 5 caster levels to the effect
• Every spell cast incurs a 5% risk of a wild surge.
• Nahal's Reckless Dweamor, it's most iconic feature has a 100% wild surge chance.

The variable caster level is a big deal, and can neuter or even nullify your spells until you're caster level is in the teens. The 5% may not seem like much, but it will rear its head with some regularity--often at hilariously inopportune times. If you want to use the main feature of the kit, you're going to face the consequences. This was glorious, but I think it should be taken one step further.

Imagine the following:

• Wizards can cast any known/memorized spell at will.
• Wild surge rate is 5% per spell level, minus the caster level.
  • Wild surge severity is proportionate to the spell level. Minor spells might simply fail, major spells might result in the death of everything within 30-60' of the caster, including the caster.

Putting it in context to D&D, a Level 20 wizard would be able to cast Stoneskin, Fireballs, Web (Level 4 and less) without risk, but have a 25% chance to botch a Gate spell. The player is going to self-regulate in a very natural manner that is consistent with the setting. It also gives an interesting level of tactics to change the odds for friends or foes with your own spells, abilities, items, etc.. I've made a homebrew RPG that does (with a non D20 dice pool) and it works marvelously. Dangerous magic, is how you solve magic. The developer just needs to have vision and courage to do it.

I agree on making magic have drawbacks, even in terms of magical equipment. Enchanting should be powerful, but containing adverse side effects for magic items. For example, you can cast a higher level spell with the item but your accuracy goes down. Otherwise end game becomes hunting and stacking up on magical equipment for every slot possible. Building a character without any or barely any magical equipment should be encouraged. Choosing to rely on some magical equipment should be a build choice with drawbacks rather than the actual end game choice for every possible build combination available. Things like making magical equipment be not as durable or to have limited charges, or even be obscenely heavy and limiting movement. This could be easily explained by setting lore that only the heaviest, thickest and strongest of materials can take the stress of being enchanted without being destroyed in the process.


If every jack and jill can learn magic, why isn't it popular everywhere? Make learning magic actually have drawbacks, i.e. underrail where psi drops your max health permanently. Make large magical actions actually drain up a character to be unusable for a bit if they're a companion. A mechanic like this could do much for a questline, where you could solve an issue with magic but it would mean you can't solve the next few issues with magic. If a mage companion uses too much magic, limit that until time and quests have been completed that they can be used again as a companion. For the PC, reflect it on their chance to hit/health/fatigue. Obviously something like this is difficult to smooth out and not make infuriating or easy to cheese, but luckily I am not a gamedev so that's not my problem

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Less is more

More or less.

 

[Harthwain]

If every jack and jill can learn magic, why isn't it popular everywhere?

Just because technically everyone can learn something doesn't mean it can be "popular everywhere". I recommend looking at how learning Latin back in Medieval times was like for a decent example of why there were limits to how many people were able to write or speak in Latin. And that's not even touching stuff like math, just the language. So if the ability to write and speak a language wasn't a commonplace, then why is this so surprising for magic to have an even lesser spread?

 

[JarlFrank]

I understand your complaints but I dont think I agree with much. For example I like a minimum of 8-10 races with an ideal number being 14.

Yeah 14 races and 88 classes is pretty much the ideal tbh

 

[JarlFrank]

If every jack and jill can learn magic, why isn't it popular everywhere?

Just because technically everyone can learn something doesn't mean it can be "popular everywhere". I recommend looking at how learning Latin back in Medieval times was like for a decent example of why there were limits to how many people were able to write or speak in Latin. And that's not even touching stuff like math, just the language. So if the ability to write and speak a language wasn't a commonplace, then why is this so surprising for magic to have an even lesser spread?

Yeah but learning Latin only enables you to speak a foreign language and read the bible. Learning math only enables you to become an architect and oversee cathedral and castle construction projects where 100 workers have to actually haul stones around for a year before it's done.

Learning magic in D&D-derived fantasy settings allows you to shoot fire out your ass at anyone who annoys you, summon a wolf out of nowhere to eat anyone who annoys you, conjure food and water out of nowhere, mind control people to do your bidding, open any lock you want, wreck people's minds with maddening illusions, and teleport anywhere within the blink of an eye.

It's like getting your driver's license, rocket science degree, pyrotechnics certificate, and engineering diploma all at the same time except doing cool things with it takes only about 10% of the physical effort all other jobs in existence take.

Why wouldn't you want to learn this shit? It turns you into a literal superman compared to everyone who can't do magic.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why wouldn't you want to learn this shit? It turns you into a literal superman compared to everyone who can't do magic

If you can do anything with no effort, then there's no fun left.

 

[JarlFrank]

Why wouldn't you want to learn this shit? It turns you into a literal superman compared to everyone who can't do magic

If you can do anything with no effort, then there's no fun left.

That's why modern life sucks, I know.

 

[His Dudeness]

I agree that fantasy races are generally reskinned humans, which is why I prefer more exotic takes on stereotypical fantasy races like Glorantha’s plant people elves and rock people dwarves. On the other hand, sometimes they get too heterogeneous and the setting loses any coherent identity. If every city is Sigil, then Sigil isn’t so special.

I think the primary problem with magic in fantasy is that it’s utterly disconnected from any kind of spirituality, religion or real world beliefs in magic. Here’s some articles on it: https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/ I recommend the article on scientific systems especially. If you can afford it, I recommend reading BRP Enlightened Magic.

Yes, I do think class bloat is a problem. Most classes can be analyzed as variations or hybrids of other classes. This would be far less of a problem under a skill-based system or something like the pnp product “Spheres of Power”, but I have no idea for how to go about applying that to video games.

This is really interesting. In my AD&D setting I've got around this issue by making magic a service provided by stone ships belonging to the "gods", stuck in orbit. Spells were nothing but activation codes, many of which were lost in time.

Another very interesting take can be found in the Dungeon Crawl Classics tabletop rpg, where a requirement for magical ability is to have a patron who provides such power. While the nature of the relationship varies, the game encourages spirituality over the patron being an ATM for spells.

The game also features varying degrees of success for spellcasting in the form of a table, which sounds great in theory but the act of finding the spell table in such a huge book and rolling and checking the result becomes a chore quick. The effective result is that few people choose to play casters.

Failure to succesfully cast means a chance to become corrupted, since magic is not of the realm of men. You get to roll on yet another table, with accumulating results:

 

[S.torch]

although even in these original D&D campaigns they had to contend with players who were fans of The Lord of the Rings trilogy

When Gigachads come to the table . Those were worth to see.

Are you going to disagree with my analysis of LotR and why it became so ground breaking?

Your analysis was rather simplistic.

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah but learning Latin only enables you to speak a foreign language and read the bible. Learning math only enables you to become an architect and oversee cathedral and castle construction projects where 100 workers have to actually haul stones around for a year before it's done.

Learning magic in D&D-derived fantasy settings allows you to shoot fire out your ass at anyone who annoys you, summon a wolf out of nowhere to eat anyone who annoys you, conjure food and water out of nowhere, mind control people to do your bidding, open any lock you want, wreck people's minds with maddening illusions, and teleport anywhere within the blink of an eye.

It's like getting your driver's license, rocket science degree, pyrotechnics certificate, and engineering diploma all at the same time except doing cool things with it takes only about 10% of the physical effort all other jobs in existence take.

I wouldn't downplay the usefulness of Latin and math, especially when combined, even though it is not as cool as magic. Having the ability to communicate remotely (via couriers), for example, was vital as far in time as the Napoleonic wars. Math, on the other hand, allows for creation of inventories and taxation.

Why wouldn't you want to learn this shit? It turns you into a literal superman compared to everyone who can't do magic.

The point wasn't that someone wouldn't want to learn it. The point was why it wasn't a commonplace when technically anyone can learn it. You really don't need to look too far away from the reality show a good example why this could be the case.

 

[Barbie]

If every jack and jill can learn magic, why isn't it popular everywhere?

Just because technically everyone can learn something doesn't mean it can be "popular everywhere". I recommend looking at how learning Latin back in Medieval times was like for a decent example of why there were limits to how many people were able to write or speak in Latin. And that's not even touching stuff like math, just the language. So if the ability to write and speak a language wasn't a commonplace, then why is this so surprising for magic to have an even lesser spread?

Learning is quite different, especially in a world where there is no centralized communication systems such as the internet. It also has a barrier of entry cost for equipment such as books and writing equipment. But magic is basically internet for mages. Almost all magical settings include mages communicating to each other from long distances and relaying knowledge that way. It's like every village has their priest and then they have the mage, but you would think that he would at some point decide to teach the locals to make fire for themselves so he doesn't have to drag his ass everyday to do mundane tasks for the locals. Now if you claim that well maybe he refuses to do that and hes set up for more important tasks then exactly what are these important tasks in the average village? It's not like they will let him free load for a year because they need him twice during it.

Realistically at some point some mage would want to teach the common people so he doesn't have to get his ass out everyday to do Mundane tasks for them.

 

[Harthwain]

But magic is basically internet for mages. Almost all magical settings include mages communicating to each other from long distances and relaying knowledge that way.

Assuming there is "internet for mages". Not all magical settings have it.

Realistically at some point some mage would want to teach the common people so he doesn't have to get his ass out everyday to do Mundane tasks for them.

I am not so sure about that. Realistically it took a long-ass time for mass literacy/education to become a thing. And we're talking about something as mundane as the ability to read/write. So the question now is: at what point is the society in your setting? Because you could have magery become RELATIVELY commonplace deep in a timeline, but even today there are a plenty of backwards places, even if we use something like computer technology as another example of "it's the kind of magic that anyone can do".

 

[Butter]

If every jack and jill can learn magic, why isn't it popular everywhere?

Just because technically everyone can learn something doesn't mean it can be "popular everywhere". I recommend looking at how learning Latin back in Medieval times was like for a decent example of why there were limits to how many people were able to write or speak in Latin. And that's not even touching stuff like math, just the language. So if the ability to write and speak a language wasn't a commonplace, then why is this so surprising for magic to have an even lesser spread?

Yeah but learning Latin only enables you to speak a foreign language and read the bible. Learning math only enables you to become an architect and oversee cathedral and castle construction projects where 100 workers have to actually haul stones around for a year before it's done.

Learning magic in D&D-derived fantasy settings allows you to shoot fire out your ass at anyone who annoys you, summon a wolf out of nowhere to eat anyone who annoys you, conjure food and water out of nowhere, mind control people to do your bidding, open any lock you want, wreck people's minds with maddening illusions, and teleport anywhere within the blink of an eye.

It's like getting your driver's license, rocket science degree, pyrotechnics certificate, and engineering diploma all at the same time except doing cool things with it takes only about 10% of the physical effort all other jobs in existence take.

Why wouldn't you want to learn this shit? It turns you into a literal superman compared to everyone who can't do magic.

It forces you to wear a dress for the rest of your life.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Another thing I don't like is the schizoid nature of worldbuilding when it comes to the standard classes. They're a weird hodgepodge of influences, ranging from fantasy fiction to pop anthropology to self-referential D&Disms, that don't fit well together at all. In throwing all fantasy fiction into a blender, the result ends up satisfying no setting at all.

E.g. the clerics, druids, and warlocks seems to have roots in medieval Christianity and the Arthurian mythos, but then needlessly convolutes itself by trying to bolt on Roman paganism and post-Christian fairy lore without understanding how any of that worked. So both druids and warlocks have fairy connections that don't work at all the same way. And that's before taking into account any other classes. EDIT: Also, the three classes are eurocentric af and display a piss poor understanding of real world theologies, particularly non-European ones. (Long story short, there isn't really much of a difference. Druidism is an Indo-European religion that shares the same roots as Norse and Greek religion.)

Most published settings don't even take into account the D&Disms. Some settings like Eberron or Scarred Lands try to specifically worldbuild around the D&Disms to produce coherent settings. Unfortunately, they never got particularly popular.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it. What do you think?

 

[Nortar]

Cryomancer What are your stretch goals Vic?

 

[Skinwalker]

Fantasy worlds with a ton of different races in their setting is major decline. You get Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Orcs, and if you really want to push it, gnomes or halflings, but not both.

No, fuck off. Decline is when fantasy races are treated the same as current_year real-world races in some cosmopolitan megacity shithole, and are therefore rendered mundane and uninteresting.

Simply having them in your setting isn't automatically decline, especially when time and space are used to put distance between them and the more mundane human realms. E.g. most of the elves live in a different and far away continent/subcontinent and it's not trivial for humans to travel there, let alone migrate and establish their own holds.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I am not so sure about that. Realistically it took a long-ass time for mass literacy/education to become a thing.

It took a long time for literacy rates to even be recorded. I'm not so sure that medieval people were as illiterate as our fart-huffing post-enlightenment culture likes to make out. We know for a fact that basic tradesmen were literate in the late-Roman era, they'd mark their own work with their names and there's plenty of objects preserved graffitied by soldiers. Would all that just magically stop as soon as Rome™ fell? I doubt it, writing is too useful for conducting business. More likely I think when we hear that people are "illiterate" in contemporary sources they're talking specifically about ecclesiastical Latin and/or Greek.

John Barleycorn & Sons don't need all that high-falutin' book-nerd talk, just a vulgar vocabulary pertaining to his trade and everyday life so he can comprehend orders from his customers, lists from his master and edicts from his liege.

 

[Cryomancer]

@Cryomancer What are your stretch goals

Funny. But I like the idea of magic being outside of the "realm" of man and corrupting the caster.

Here is a alternative magicl system for a low magic world akin to conan >> http://hyboria.xoth.net/sorcery/low_magic_system.htm

Some interesting points :

"6. Demonic casters are only partially aware of the physical world while casting a spell. They lose their DEX bonus to AC and can take no more than a 5-foot step per action.

8. Performing the rituals of magic demands a life-cost to break through the boundaries of the physical world and command otherworldly forces, leaving the caster drained and weak. Casters take 2 CON of temporary ability damage per spell level cast. Casters take 1 CON of temporary ability damage when casting a 0-level spell.

10. The boundaries between the physical world and the spirit and demon worlds are weakened in times of astrological power. The cost of spirit magic is halved on the Summer and Winter Solstices. The cost of demonic magic is halved on the Autumnal and Vernal Equinoxes. The cost of both spirit and demonic magic is reduced by 2 CON when performed in the light of a full moon. All spells always have a minimum cost of 1 CON.

13. For all classes, spells must be acquired, deciphered and mastered. No class automatically learns all spells within their spell levels.

14. There is no maximum number of known spells per level. Casters can learn as many spells as they are able to acquire, decipher and master.

17. Learning a new spell from another caster or a spellbook requires 2 days of dedicated study per spell level and a Spellcraft check with a DC of 15 + 2 per spell level. Spellcraft checks will be modified by the quality and comprehensiveness of the caster’s notes and/or instruction. The DM will inform players of any modifiers prior to the character’s attempt to cast the spell.

Whether the spell is correctly and fully understood is not known until the caster first attempts to cast it. Failing to master the otherworldly forces of magic exacts a heavy toll from the caster. The caster takes 3 CON of temporary ability damage per spell level of the failed spell. Casters take 2 CON of temporary ability damage when failing to correctly cast a 0-level spell. A character cannot retry to learn the spell until he improves his Spellcraft skill.

18. Demonic spellcasters who are not Chaotic Evil have a Corruption statistic. Every time a demonic spell is cast the spellcaster must make a Will saving throw at a DC of 11 + spell level. If the spellcaster fails the saving throw, his Corruption statistic is increased by 1 point. This represents that the spellcaster did not fully master the demons he encountered in drawing arcane might and was corrupted by the mad cruelty of the Teeming Swarmlands. When the spellcaster’s Corruption statistic reaches a multiple of 25, his alignment moves one step toward Chaotic Evil. The axis that is furthest from Chaotic Evil will change. If both axes are the same distance from Chaotic Evil, the character may choose which axis to change. For example, if a Lawful Neutral character’s Corruption statistic has just reached 25, he becomes corrupted and his alignment must change to True Neutral (because Lawful is two steps from Chaotic, whereas Neutral is only step from Evil). If the character’s Corruption statistic reaches 50, he becomes further corrupted and the character may choose whether to become Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral."

 

[ItsChon]

Your analysis was rather simplistic.

And you still don't have a satisfactory rebuttal. Lick the cheese from under my nuts you stupid bitch.

Fantasy worlds with a ton of different races in their setting is major decline. You get Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Orcs, and if you really want to push it, gnomes or halflings, but not both.

No, fuck off. Decline is when fantasy races are treated the same as current_year real-world races in some cosmopolitan megacity shithole, and are therefore rendered mundane and uninteresting.

Simply having them in your setting isn't automatically decline, especially when time and space are used to put distance between them and the more mundane human realms. E.g. most of the elves live in a different and far away continent/subcontinent and it's not trivial for humans to travel there, let alone migrate and establish their own holds.

Shut your filthy, suhuman mouth race traitor. Your response doesn't make any sense and it's clear you haven't read the thread. Go back to shit posting in prosperland and GD where you belong.

 

[Skinwalker]

I suck every russian cock I can find! Balls-deep for extra rubles!

That's nice, but can you stay on your own retarded topic, putlerian bitch?

it's clear you haven't read the thread

It's too retarded to give more than a brief skim-through. Durr hurr you can't have gnomes and hobbits in the same setting coz my pee-pee is tiny, durr. Lol, pathetic butthurt retard.

Obviously, one can have as many fantasy races as the author wants, provided they are given sufficient characterization and are differentiated from each other. For whatever reason, gnomes tend to be associated with clockwork and/or steampunk in most fantasy settings that feature them, which sets them fairly far apart from the rural, pastoral, low-tech hobbitfolk. Actually, there's virtually nothing in common between gnomes and halflings, other than being short like the OP.

 

[Valdetiosi]

Everybody wants to stand out with their player character, but don't know how relatable a relatively simple race with relatively simple class.
Then again, people who play these games don't socialize or have a job so they cannot relate to simplistic ideas.