rants starting with Bioware, then JES, and finally Tim Cain.

[triCritical]

OK, so Bioware made this game called NWN that took DnD TurnBased combat and made it real time. And the other people like Bioware and Josh Sawyer justify it saying that its a new medium hence it should be changed. But here is what I don't understand, why did they preserve remnants of the TB system and incorporate them into the Real time combat, namely the Attack of Oppurtunity (AoO).

This is something that seems to be designed purely for Turn Base play, so that combatants don't take advantage of frozen enemies not being able to attack them. And I imagine that this is fairly common place in many turnbase tactical RPG systems. The problem, is does this make sense in Real Time? I mean first I have a character who is engaged in real time combat, a goblin walks by and all of a sudden I can get a free attack on him. Wait a second I'm engaged in combat why can I get a free attack?

OK I am pretending I don't know about the 6 second period and pseudo phased based combat component. But nevertheless, the game is still allegedly real time, so If I desire I can always pull my attack off my current combatant and attack the goblin, not really needing a AoO, which really just ends up being cheese.

What is even more entertaining is that they chose to include AoO's, which depend heavily on placement and movement but then they have the character walk all over the friggin room during combat against my will as to not really paying attention to tactical placement in combat. Furthemore, they don't incorporate any other tactical features of the same sort like 5 foot step and the like.

I guess what started this little rant is Josh Sawyer trying to rationalize why its OK to basterdize a rule system when changing the medium. I guess its OK too, IF THE CHANGES ARE MONUMENTAL! I mean just changing a thing here and there just is not going to cut it when it was made and tested for a particular combat model. Furthermore, I don't think there is any reason why changing the system because of the medium is even warranted since a computer can take DnD combat and emulate it to perfection much like chess. It begs the question why not just use a new system, use tolkien creatures and call it Bard's Tale, Wizardry, or anything like that.

Am I just missing the point. And since I brought the other thread into this one, I will just say this, every interview that Tim Cain has done, they ask him, "WHY DID YOU MAKE IT TURN BASED, BIOWARE MAKES REALTIME GAMES LOLLLLLZ." And being half Irish, and after being asked soooooooo many times, I can really empathize with him, because now when I read one of those interviews I want to say,

[tricritical biggest breakdown ev4r]

BECAUSE THE GAME IS SUPPOSE TO BE FUCKING TURNBASED YOU FUCKWIT AND A HALF. BECAUSE IF BIOWARE JUMPED OFF A FUCKING BRIDGE WOULD YOU. LOLZ YOURSELF YOU IDIOT, GOD WHY ARE PEOPLE SO FUCKING STUPID!!

LOLLLLLZ

[/tricritical biggest breakdown ev4r]

Yeah go ahead and have your temper live vicariously through me.

 

[Volourn]

Heh. LOL Yeah that interviewer is a dweeb. Still, I'd just like to point out clearly, NWN is not real real time. Just like the IE games aren't. Then again, you alreayd know that yet since you mention the 6 second rule and the pause n play avaialble yet pretend those two things don't exist in these games.

I do agree just ebcause one company does oen thing shouldn't mean another one should copy them. That's boring. I like the fact that BIO does a mix of turn base and real time. Troika can do turn base (oh yeah, i forgot, their next game after TOEE isn't turn base ); and other companies can do straight up real time.

Oh, btw, 8/10 for this great rant! :shock:

 

[Spazmo]

Real time with pause is not a "mix" of RT and TB, it's a bastard child thereof. Get your nomenclature straight.

 

[Volourn]

No, you are wrong.

 

[Psilon]

Volourn, a lot of servers--at least most of those I played on before giving up on NWN Internet multiplayer--disallow pause'n'play, mainly because of idiots pausing every time they want to drink a potion. This hasn't changed much; even a large percentage of the passworded servers I checked disallow pausing.

Given that the two most-quoted strengths of NWN are modules and multiplayer, NWN is frequently not pause'n'play. Ergo, there's not even the appearance of "turn based."

As for myself, I'll take phase-based over both RT and TB. Wizardry, LSN, and RoboSport for me, baby!

 

[Volourn]

True, in mp pause n play isn't used. However, even with it disabled, NWN still uses the 6 second round rule which kinda stops it from being fully rt. An example of this that at level 1; you can attempt tos wing your weapon as quick as you want; you will still only get one attack during that round. It's not twitch combat - at least it surely doesn't feel like it. If one wants twitch combat; they can play the LH demo. :twisted:

 

[Psilon]

I'd say WarCraft III is fully RT, yet one still gets only a certain number of swings per constant time interval, regardless of how many times I right-click on the enemy unit.

 

[triCritical]

Heh. LOL Yeah that interviewer is a dweeb. Still, I'd just like to point out clearly, NWN is not real real time. Just like the IE games aren't. Then again, you alreayd know that yet since you mention the 6 second rule and the pause n play avaialble yet pretend those two things don't exist in these games.

But within the context of my complaints it might have well been pure real time. The point is:

At any time during combat I can terminate my current action and attack a stupid goblin for entering the penalized area, which is not clearly defined may I add. Hence there is no need for an AoO under the their combat model

My only guess is that they really did not know what the AoO's purpose was, or maybe I don't know. Its seems to me that they would have done a much better job if they would have elimated all rules regarding tactical combat since what was most important was the animations and their story. Too bad the majority of the OC and online modules are completely riddled with combat.

 

[Ibbz]

The problem, is does this make sense in Real Time? I mean first I have a character who is engaged in real time combat, a goblin walks by and all of a sudden I can get a free attack on him. Wait a second I'm engaged in combat why can I get a free attack?

If you suddenly turn around and decide to run off in combat - your opponent is going to have a chance to stab you in the back hence AOO apply in real time just as much as turn based. One could also argue a competant swordsman would be able to pull off a move that both attacked the person in front aswell as hitting someone at the side.

AOO's have many uses in real time games, such as preventing monsters just running straight past fighters to attack mages at the back of the group etc.

 

[triCritical]

AOO's have many uses in real time games, such as preventing monsters just running straight past fighters to attack mages at the back of the group etc.

But in Real time that just does not make any sense. I am already temporally committed in a particular action, and now you are going to tell me I can magically move my sword behind me and take a chop at someone. The logic behind AoO's is while I am standing frozen waiting for my turn, if someone tries to by me leaving themselves completely open for an attack, I get a free attack. It really makes sense in TB. In real time, however, if some tries to pass me, I just block them from passing, by terminating my current action. I shouldn't mysteriously get to do two things at once. You are now taking a somewhat balanced rule and turning it into cheese.

If you suddenly turn around and decide to run off in combat - your opponent is going to have a chance to stab you in the back hence AOO apply in real time just as much as turn based. One could also argue a competant swordsman would be able to pull off a move that both attacked the person in front aswell as hitting someone at the side.

But why do you need an AoO to do this. If you are a competent sword man then presumable in RT you will have the analogous to more then one turn per round. Hence in those six seconds you should get to use more the one attack. Hence, if you see someone sneaking up on you, you attack them with one of your attacks. and then use the other elsewhere. These are the revolutionary changes that Bioware could have made, but instead they chose to make a halfass combat system with l33t animations and include bastardized remnants of a Turnbased system.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Heh. LOL Yeah that interviewer is a dweeb. Still, I'd just like to point out clearly, NWN is not real real time. Just like the IE games aren't. Then again, you alreayd know that yet since you mention the 6 second rule and the pause n play avaialble yet pretend those two things don't exist in these games.

I do agree just ebcause one company does oen thing shouldn't mean another one should copy them. That's boring. I like the fact that BIO does a mix of turn base and real time. Troika can do turn base (oh yeah, i forgot, their next game after TOEE isn't turn base ); and other companies can do straight up real time.

Oh, btw, 8/10 for this great rant! :shock:

Exactly how is real time with pause not real time? The only difference is that you can pause to queue up orders. Every single time an action occurs, everything is occuring at the exact same time - which is real time. If you're walking, you can bet that enemy archer is firing at that same time. If you're swinging a sword at a goblin, he's attacking as well. Just allowing you to stop and queue up instructions doesn't make it any less real time, especially when it comes to what rules you have to fudge!

Many rules, such as the rules for AoO, rely on the sequential nature of turn based. TriCritical is dead on the money about that. You can only swing so many times in six seconds because of the attack animations, and that means that every so often, you're going to have to limit the AoOs, cleaves, and bonus attacks to a set number just to make sure you stay within the maximum attack animations you can have in six seconds.

Things like initiative become meaningless, especially in ranged combat, just like in real time. Why? Because you can be chopping on an archer while his arrow flies through the air towards that mage. The arrow has a flight time, the mage has a movement time, and you have a swing time - but these are all going on at once. If the mage got the initiative for the round, he could already be in cover by the time the archer fired because turn based is sequential.

Hell, at best, real time with pause is phase based minus consistancy and interactivity, but it sure as hell isn't anything remotely like turn based.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

That is a goodie, I must admit. Do you think Cain will ever go off on someone like that or has he already : If he doesnt go off on the interviewers then he must be hell to work with sometimes as he might take it out on his underlings

 

[Spazmo]

That is a goodie, I must admit. Do you think Cain will ever go off on someone like that or has he already : If he doesnt go off on the interviewers then he must be hell to work with sometimes as he might take it out on his underlings

Well, if anything, I"m quite sure Mr. Cain doesn't like us putting words in his mouth. I somehow doubt he's quite as vitriolic on the subject as we are, and even if he is, I don't think he really wants any shit with BioWare and the other idiot RT RPG developers.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

That's obvious he dont want shit to do wit em, if he did then he'd do crap games like they do

 

[triCritical]

Well, if anything, I"m quite sure Mr. Cain doesn't like us putting words in his mouth. I somehow doubt he's quite as vitriolic on the subject as we are, and even if he is, I don't think he really wants any shit with BioWare and the other idiot RT RPG developers.

I am hoping, one day rope kid is as big as sid meiers, those should be some fun interviews to read. Unfortunately, rope kid works for a company that does what all the rags expect, so I doubt he will over go off like that.

As for why I went off, well that is because it seriously bugs me. It really irritates me to the point where I need a forum to vent..

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Shit, that shit gets to alot of us good old boys, so dont worry bout it

 

[Rabby]

Exactly how is real time with pause not real time?

Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Rise of Nations provides an option to issue commands while paused, yet it doesn't make it any less of a real-time game at all. While sequentual moves in turn-based may not be "realistic", I think it's a very viable abstraction that gives an opportunity for very unique strategies like in X-Com or Jagged Alliance 2, and it's also something that probably cannot be replicated except by actually making the game turn-based. To mash the two together in the case of the IE games is probably to combine the lesser aspects of each system. While I did enjoy the combat in Baldur's Gate, I think it would have worked cleaner, and more easily understood, if they had chosen one system over the other. I guess when torn between the success of Diablo and the fans for D&D, the designers made a decision.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Back with the AoO, I have to agree it's pretty botched in RT (a.k.a. NWN). Taking extra attacks for moving around doesn't make much sense outside of TB. What really bugs me is you get them for casting spells, turning undead, etc. It makes sense in TB, where that's the only chance you'll get to disrupt a spellcaster or dissuade someone from charging right past you. If spellcasting takes actual time, you not only get to disrupt them while they're casting, you also get AoO's, which isn't fair. Spellcasters in PnP are nowhere near as easy to disrupt. If they're casting defensively, the best you can do is forfeit all but one attack and ready it to try and disrupt them. If you miss, or they pass the single concentration check, tough noogies. Even thinking of casting in combat in NWN is mostly pointless, though.

 

[Volourn]

Speaking of catsing defensively; it is also now in NWN. I think AOO work okay in NWN. Sometimes they ca be a little nuts since sometimes even moving a bit causes one to occur; but that situation is rare indeed espciially if you are used to the system.

 

[Astromarine]

I don't think Vollie's opinion is that the pause uberfeatureofhell makes it not realtime. I think that the argument is that, because of the six second phase, when you press a mouse to hit on an enemy, the character will not immediately do it (unlike, say, Diablo). Lionheart's system is more "pure real time" than [IA]E, because the only stat regulating how fast you can hit is your character's agility and the number of frames your attack takes. Diablo was even MORE than that because the desterity didn't affect attack speed.

In the Crapola Engine Twins, there was the limiting factor of the combat phase you were on. If you had exausted your attacks that turn, nothing would make you attack again until the next turn. Hence, not "pure" real time. Of course, this just means it's a useless crap hybrid.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Speaking of catsing defensively; it is also now in NWN. I think AOO work okay in NWN. Sometimes they ca be a little nuts since sometimes even moving a bit causes one to occur; but that situation is rare indeed espciially if you are used to the system.

Have you actually tried defensive casting? I got it to work maybe 1 out of 4 times, usually wasting more than a round just waiting to see if things would work, before giving up. It suffers from the same power attack-esque problems, and the difficulty seems a little out of whack. Even a mid-level character seems to have an unhealthy failure rate.

But like I said, AoO's for spellcasting probably shouldn't be there at all. In RT, you've got a chance to attack a mage while they're casting. That's what AoO's were supposed to represent in the first place.

 

[Volourn]

Walks: Honestly, no I ahven't. My spellcatsers tend to have high concentration so it's very rare that I fail a concentration check anyways so if it seems bugged. Hmm.. I should check it out to make sure.

Astro: Pretty much. To me RT is about player reactions while in NWN player reaction shouldn't be much of an issue unless you are really really out if it. That 6 seconds gives you plebnty of time to take your time indeciding what to do in combat; and with queing actions makes it much eaier too so there usually shouldn't time to panick unles syou are lamely effected by lag.

 

[Section8]

And that sums up my biggest gripe with Bioware. The fact that they just throw a bunch of shit together and hope it works.

 

[Sammael]

And that sums up my biggest gripe with Bioware. The fact that they just throw a bunch of shit together and hope it works.

No, wait: they throw a bunch of shit together and claim that it works, even though it doesn't.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I like it when they claim real time with pause not only works well, but it's also turn based.