*redacted*

[Commissar Draco]

Legion was good faction for Clevean Alpha Uber-man; but since most people are betas NCR with its 1950s KWA feel was better alternative for most. Not to mention they didn't forced their XXI century post industrial sexual correctness on society living for most parts in XIXc tech level... in civilized lands. High technology which could somehow alleviate the inherited women physical weakness was aviable only for the elite and Brotherhood of Steel, so all those half are women NCR fully integrated troops in the world of 200 years old condoms and rudimentary hygene did felt jarring a lot.

 

[groke]

The most satisfying quest-path is House until the very end, where you're seized by ennui at this mediocre game and kill him for no real reason.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

agentorange, you are wrong. There's pretty much nothing in the game to show the player that living under the Legion is better than under NCR.

NCR has:
- Existed for more than a century without massive instability and in-fighting.
- Mostly secured peace and order in their core territories
- Mutant tolerance (actually NCR is more racist than in FO2, but they're still better in that aspect compared to the Legion)
- Technological progress
- Slavery, drug-use and prostitution are prohibited
- Sexual equality
- Rule of Law
- Demokwacy
- Separation of religion and state

Meanwhile, in the Legion:
- Exists until only recently, may turn into in-fighting once Caesar dies
- Has secured peace and order in their core territories.
- Mutant intolerance
- Semi-luddism and refusal to use technological means for lame reasons
- Sexual inequality (a interesting topic but IMHO a bit two-dimensional in how it was treated)
- Massive murder, rape and slavery in general.
- State and religion are one and same, Caesar is considered a God, son of Mars.

 

[Kattze]

Cassidy, you should have at least done Dead Money instead of OWB. I was surprised at how much it is better than the base game (at least for the first playthrough), that I expected subsequent DLCs would be the same (I was disappointed).

 

[Night Goat]

I was on board with the slavery and the crucifixions, but when I learned that the Legion banned all drugs and alcohol I knew they had to go.

 

[RK47]

can't say enough about the over-rated DLCs: One run and you don't want to come back. Ever.

 

[oscar]

10 minutes of OWB just completely killed my desire to ever touch NV again. I was about to do the final Hoover Dam thing but realised "oh I've got some DLC don't I?". Because of the nauseating dialogue of OWB I just quit and have never touched the damn game since.

I think the Legion fell just a bit short in how they were conveyed to the player, but were still a decent concept. While they seem to have the military discipline stuff down pat, they lack the civilisation that Rome also brought. There should have been Roman architecture, engineering, art and culture.

Lacking any refinement, civilisation or development, the Legion ended up much more 'Sparta' than 'Rome'.

While obviously brutal to 21st century western eyes, it could have been interesting to contrast a more classical, aristocratic, collectivist and traditionalist culture to the crass materialism, bourgeois and individualism of the NCR. It could have been hinted that the NCR was leading the wasteland down the path of societal development that doomed the pre-war USA. Of course this would likely fly over the eyes of most players who would think the NCR are good guys 'cuse of their freedumbz and democracy:patriot:

 

[groke]

I never even got into OWB, my game crashed every damn time during the teleport to Big MT. The only DLC I played was Honest Hearts, which was so amazingly terribly written and linear that I had assumed it must have been Bethesda's work. Not so.

 

[RK47]

the first time i played Honest Hearts, I accidently sniped that first friendly dude across the bridge.
I was wondering wtf is up with this DLC, why is there no dialogue and just endless ambushes by tribals?
When the ending slides happened I realized I probably fucked up somewhere.

 

[Commissar Draco]

agentorange, you are wrong. There's pretty much nothing in the game to show the player that living under the Legion is better than under NCR.

NCR has:
- Existed for more than a century without massive instability and in-fighting.
- Mostly secured peace and order in their core territories
- Mutant tolerance (actually NCR is more racist than in FO2, but they're still better in that aspect compared to the Legion)
- Technological progress NCR uses old prewar tech only faction making any progress in technology is Mister House.
- Slavery, drug-use this is prohibited in Legion lands too and prostitution are prohibited
- Sexual equality
- Rule of Law
- Demokwacy
- Separation of religion and state

Meanwhile, in the Legion:
- Exists until only recently, may turn into in-fighting once Caesar dies
- Has secured peace and order in their core territories.
- Mutant intolerance
- Semi-luddism and refusal to use technological means for lame reasons
- Sexual inequality (a interesting topic but IMHO a bit two-dimensional in how it was treated)
- Massive murder, rape and slavery in general.
- State and religion are one and same, Caesar is considered a God, son of Mars.

Since when the former are ? TBH revealed as Liberal, initiating Purge for Emprah Mode.

 

[Minttunator]

Surprising you didn't mention the biggest problem of the game: The engine. The engine is shit. It fucks up the game's scope and renders what could've been magnific, pathetic.

This is an excellent point and probably my biggest issue with the game - and most other games based on this engine. Gamebryo is a horrible abomination that really needs to die.

 

[Turisas]

and most other games based on this engine.

Like Civ IV and Divinity 2?

Not that you'll be getting your wish anytime soon, they made Creation Engine (aka Gamebryo but not really) in-house and it's what they know; they won't just suddenly drop it and license some other engine. FO4 will use it, at least.

 

[Minttunator]

Yeah, the clunkiness of the engine really annoyed me in Div2.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

Saying that House had an over-inflated ego...guess what, every leader has an over-inflated ego, that's how they end up as leaders. The reason he could have been an ideal leader was because he was content with what he owned, New Vegas, was already wealthy, and approached politics from an intellectual and scientific angle; as opposed to the NCRs Aaron Kimball who was elected due to his performance in a war, and who takes the defeat at Hoover Dam personally, jeopardizing the economy of the NCR in a bid for power. As for the NCR vs. Caesar's Legion; they are almost the same entity, it's just that one of them admits to cruelly enslaving populaces and enforcing harsh laws to protect its citizens, whereas the other one hides under the shroud of democracy and false choice.

• He saved New Vegas and its surroundings, including Hoover Dam, from nuclear apocalypse, so that there is something to fight for in the first place
• He picked up from what he has left and rebuilt New Vegas into a successful establishment
• He has a long-term plan with means (resource + ridiculous longevity) to not let his golden age randomly end with his short-timed death.
• His is the way that maintains a balance between CL and NCR, providing a factor of stability that prevents a monopoly from either side.
• NCR doesn't even lose much with House's victory. He wants to share the power from the Dam, NCR doesn't have to deal with becoming overbloated with lands it can't support, and NCR's defeat is an impulse to retreat from that blind expansionist lunacy - by replacing idiots like Kimball that would otherwise be gratified by NCR's victory with much better leaders.
• Fuck, he even saved you, the Courier, and you repaid him by killing him for NCR or Yes Man you probably chose like everyone else

I think House could be shown at least a little gratitude, in, I don't know, not raping him from what's justly his. His (good) ending logically should be canon. Not to mention the Securitron army is an excellent buffer protecting the West from Legion (as opposed to NCR's kid recruits dying en masse to sustain the relentless front); and if NCR wins it isn't indicated they are going to use this army in any way.

 

[Spectacle]

I think the Legion fell just a bit short in how they were conveyed to the player, but were still a decent concept. While they seem to have the military discipline stuff down pat, they lack the civilisation that Rome also brought. There should have been Roman architecture, engineering, art and culture.

Lacking any refinement, civilisation or development, the Legion ended up much more 'Sparta' than 'Rome'.

While obviously brutal to 21st century western eyes, it could have been interesting to contrast a more classical, aristocratic, collectivist and traditionalist culture to the crass materialism, bourgeois and individualism of the NCR. It could have been hinted that the NCR was leading the wasteland down the path of societal development that doomed the pre-war USA. Of course this would likely fly over the eyes of most players who would think the NCR are good guys 'cuse of their freedumbz and democracy:patriot:

I think that's a deliberate plot point. Despite all of Caesars talk it is the Legion that is the barbarians and the NCR that is the nascent, civilized military republic. "crass materialism, bourgeois and individualism" is not an inappropriate description for republic era Rome.

 

[Black_Willow]

And slavery, you forgot slavery.

 

[Lorica]

Not really sure what you people wanted from the factions. ... As for the NCR vs. Caesar's Legion; they are almost the same entity, it's just that one of them admits to cruelly enslaving populaces and enforcing harsh laws to protect its citizens, whereas the other one hides under the shroud of democracy and false choice.

Sorry, temptation to call you dumb on the internet was too strong last night. I didn't want to say anything that I'd regret in the morning. Now that it is morning: ur dum.

More expansively, in game terms (as Cassidy has pointed out), these two factions aren't presented as competing equals. You do fetch quests for one and get rewards from them for a long while and the others get in the way of your personal quest and treat you shittily. They're set up as classic good guy, bad guy factions mechanically. The Legion are like the goddamn Sith in Star Wars; you may like them, but they ooze 'we're senselessly evil!' It could be interesting to have a game that gives you the option of understanding and siding with the 'bad guys,' but this game insists that they're ideological antagonists not a good guy-bad guy dyad.

That claim is a problem. First, because a lot of major quests for each line is the same quest with a different flavour. There's a lack of interesting game mechanics that actually separate them. Instead, the differences are cosmetic.

That in itself isn't great, but it's not a game killer. It's just that, as you point out, the cosmetic differences are bland and inconsistent. See, it's not hard to find cool divergent ideologies. These could easily have been drawn on with conflicting cultural values like: justice vs. order, prosperity vs. equality, reconstruction of the old world vs. evolution of the old world, personal liberty vs. social cohesion, etc. The only times things like this are touched on, they're treated poorly and then kind of dropped.

TL;DR: I want:
1. Mechanically different factions.
2. Factions that are actually competitors in terms of role in the story.
3. Factions that are more than just superficially distinct.

 

[Pipeweed]

Somehow I doubt there is any mod that caps HP bloat and rebalances combat into something like Deus Ex 1 in its Realistic difficulty.

People who haven't tried out the DLCs yet should definitely get this.

 

[2house2fly]

There needed to be at least one or two Legion-towns in the game, and one or two pro-Legion companions. The companions are either NCR citizens (Cass, Boone), neutral anti-legion (Arcade and Veronica) or don't care (Lilly and the others). The only pro-Legion companion in the game is Raul, and even that doesn't mean much. I would've liked to see another pro-legion guy and perhaps even a secret legion agent helping/spying you (Ullysses?).

That's precisely what Ulysses was originally going to be: a Legion member who joins up with you and ultimately changes/keeps his faction allegiance based on your influence. He was too complicated to get working in time for the release date, I think. There was also going to be Legion locations on the other side of the Colorado, but there wasn't time to implement it. I don't think it was strictly necessary anyway; we didn't need to see what the advantages were of the Master's Unity or life under the Enclave.

 

[Turisas]

I don't think it was strictly necessary anyway; we didn't need to see what the advantages were of the Master's Unity or life under the Enclave.

Would've been cool, though.

 

[agentorange]

Not really sure what you people wanted from the factions. ... As for the NCR vs. Caesar's Legion; they are almost the same entity, it's just that one of them admits to cruelly enslaving populaces and enforcing harsh laws to protect its citizens, whereas the other one hides under the shroud of democracy and false choice.

blah blah blah.

I wasn't talking about mechanics though, at all. so no, ur dum, die.

besides it's far more interesting to join a faction that has been trying to kill u throughout most of the game than it is to join the one that has been sucking ur dick and giving u presents. perhaps ud b more comfortable in bethesda games where every1 treats you like a god from the outset?

 

[Lorica]

 

[AW8]

Fallout: New Vegas has a quite good build-up: Since the beginning, you know that the land is at war. There is war. There are multiple factions involved in this fuck-up, and you find out who they are and what they want during the game, and how you can help them. And they're all going to war, with you as well somewhere. The whole thing is about the imminent battle between the NCR and the Legion with House, the BOS, the Khans, Yourself (Yes Man) and others taking a side or hijacking them. When it comes down, its all about Hoover Dam Round 2, NCR vs Caesar. Harlon fought there and even tells you how it went. You pump yourself up for EPIC BATTLE.

And then Gamebryo destroys our prospect. FUCK. YOU. GAMEBRYO.

I loved New Vegas but the ending was a huge letdown. The Legion is attacking Hoover Dam by sending 4 Legionnaires at a time for you to fight, as you make your way over the empty Dam. Then you kill some Roman guards in Lanius' camp, proceeds to convince him to retreat or kill him (the Legion retreats for some reason in this instance too). The end.

At least the ending slides gave closure by showing the consequences of your choices.

 

[agentorange]

Yeah the Hoover Dam Battle was a total mistake. They should have played to the strengths of the gamebryo engi-ok wait that wouldn't work-at least not played into the weakest point of the engine which is combat, especially large scale displays of it. The way Lonesome Road ends was the same direction they should have gone with the main campaign; a one to one dialogue with a charismatic foe, with the cinematic set-piece happening in the distance to avoid having the player see the shortcomings of the engine. Actually a very similar ending to Fallout 1.

Instead of having the player lead the assault on Hoover Dam (which for certain character types made absolutely no sense), they could have had separate assassination/diplomacy/sabotage missions for each of the factions. Or the option I really wanted as Wild Card: use the HELIOS station to blast the entire Dam into dust.

 

[2house2fly]

The big final battle is pretty disappointing, especially with the way it's built up in the game (House almost literally says "this will be the most epic battle since the Great War") but there are several good payoff moments along the way that make the experience that bit better IMO. If you're fighting for the NCR there's a bit where you can reactivate the dormant turbines the Legion is using to sneak into the dam, and then when you head outside the water is running red with blood. Plus there's the Khans/Brotherhood fighting alongside the NCR soldiers. If you go House/Independent you turn on the securitron bunker and emerge onto the dam to see the Fort in flames, and you have a little securitron escort to the Legate's Camp. Plus there's the Boomers' bombing run and the Enclave Remnants turning up in a vertibird to smash shit for you. The final dialogue battles with Lanius and Oliver are well-written and generous with skill-based options for convincing them to back off. Plus the player finally gets some cool shit to say after 100 hours of "hmm, tell me about the NCR": when Oliver asks you if you really have what it takes to build a nation, you can say "My sycophant tells me yes " or just have Yes Man throw him off the dam.

In a half-decent game engine it would have been such an epic conclusion