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Respeccing is a terrible mechanic

Is respeccing for retards?


  • Total voters
    88

kites

samsung verizon hitachi
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Have a very limited number that you have to earn in some way; sort of like Larval Tears in Elden Ring. How am I supposed to know some skill/stat I’m investing in is not fleshed out or is totally worthless if the game is not balanced or doesn’t telegraph it well. Fundamentally it’s mostly used as a crutch for weak game design. Though it can make sense in lengthy game like ER to have the option to change how you are able to play with the tools you come across. Maybe it’s more an issue of setting and design coherence to give the option a sense of place.
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
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2,639
Respeccing is never okay, you are a faggot if you do this. Build a new character. It's one of those things that just breaks any semblance of balance or immersion and make the entire game feel like a carnival.
 

Saark

Arcane
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Jun 16, 2010
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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Respeccing, like someone else already said, is a matter of replayability and living with your choices. If this kind of coplexity is only reflected in your character system, but not the writing, companions, and story, then respeccing is somewhat necessary. A game you'll only ever play once because it offers no alternating paths, missable characters, or branching storylines, has no reason to lock you into your gameplay choices, because it doesn't lock you into narrative ones either.

A game that does offer all of these things, however, should be more strict in its characters/party development too. Playing a Warrior in playthrough 1 and a sorcerer in playthrough 2 is fine if more aspects of the game change for that second playthrough. But if you will be experiencing the same story, NPCs, partymembers, and world development all over again with little to no deviation, then the second playthrough just falls flat.
 

kites

samsung verizon hitachi
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Have a very limited number that you have to earn in some way; sort of like Larval Tears in Elden Ring.
Unfortunately bad example, since ER drowns you in Larval Tears. I actually wanted them to be more limited.
I agree; collecting 18 re-rolls if you are a completionist is much too many, but as far as playing for 200 hours it was nice to be able to try out a few different builds

Also an issue of how a game is directed. An average-sized game that is focused on action? I don’t mind locking myself into a less-than-optimal build, but if it’s story-heavy.. it better be good or have unique content because I don’t want to go through so many beats all over again
 

Glop_dweller

Magister
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,272
The primary problem of re-spec in RPGs (player integrity aside) is one of temporal inconsistency. This madness leads to having characters in a situation where they are lacking the skills and experience (or even special abilities) that it took to get where they find themselves after the re-spec. A PC might literally have a cliff wall at their back, one that they could (now) never have climbed up in the first place— and (now) lack the skills to climb down again. Also a re-specced character tends to keep the experience and the loot they acquired while sporting an entirely different personal origin than they now find themselves with after the respec; making many of the events in their past become impossible —for instance stat bonuses that enabled success (or failures) that dictated (or even facilitated) their course of action at certain of their past encounters; events that could not have happened that way to their currently respecced PC.... yet they still carry the loot, cash, and XP from it.

Respec in cRPGs (is unconscionable, but...) should at least retroactively respec past encounters, solved puzzles, NPC biases, party member allegiances, fates, outcomes as consequence. Undoubtedly certain characters could have been healed by clerics —who later on weren't and never had been clerics; where did the healing come from; where did the remove curse come from; where did the enemy's affliction (that reduced their attack accuracy —that spared everyone in the party— come from)?

Respec has always been an absurd OP cheat wherever implemented.
 
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LtKaiden

Barely Literate
Joined
Nov 24, 2024
Messages
3
I've never used respeccing before so this is probably an uninformed opinion but respeccing seems like a bad solution to a fairly common game design problem which is realizing 10, 20, 30 hours in that your build sucks or is boring. Build experimentation should be testable in a separate environment to the main campaign. I think Pathfinder has a roguelike mode, BG1EE has the Black Pits which allows you to test different builds within a fairly controlled environment - these seem like good solutions to me, but I can't really think of many RPGs outside these examples that have sub-campaigns for gamemodes for this purpose.

Obviously that only applies to combat related systems - for a first-time player its not really apparent at character creation to what extent non-combat skills are valuable. A well designed RPG will allow a variety of ways of approaching a particular challenge, others will just outright softlock if you didn't have a high enough x skill and there has to be a way of navigating this problem.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
7,630
ALLOW GRINDING
Massive disagree. Grinding should not exist in any form in any RPG. What makes games like gothic so special is precisely that there is only a limited amount of xp you can get in the game, and how you deal with such constraints. Not to mention that grinding implies the presence of enemy respawn, which is another massive cancer all by its own. Even if you yourself do not participate in the grind, its mere presence in the game neccessiates such chamges in design that it makes the game worse.
 

Maxie

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Thank God real games like Trails have passive stat growths on level-up and all the meat of character building comes from rearranging skill gems to get access to the best spells and the best passive effects in the most efficient manner
Expedition 33 kinda went in this direction except for no good reason you still distribute those paltry attribute points by yourself and get a few dozen of respec points you will probably never use anyway. Ruined the elegant Trails design this way
 

Necrensha

Erudite
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Aug 31, 2024
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Deep underground
>Put every point into axes
>Halfway through the game axes stop appearing because it's unfinished
>HUrr dUrr just start from the beginning again
>It's so much fun to waste your time!!
Only in this place could this deranged disregard for time be a common opinion. Guess you're all liches irl huh.
 

Maxie

Wholesome Chungus
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>Put every point into axes
>Halfway through the game axes stop appearing because it's unfinished
>HUrr dUrr just start from the beginning again
>It's so much fun to waste your time!!
Only in this place could this deranged disregard for time be a common opinion. Guess you're all liches irl huh.
Why are you bullying me for taking Poleaxes in Avernum 2 and never finding a single fucking unique poleaxe
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
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59,924
Respeccing is a terrible mechanic yes, and this muh axes argument is dumb since all that proves is that the game has shit design which means you probably shouldn't play it in the first place.

The ONLY place where respeccing makes sense is MMOs and ironically those are the only games that kinda make it difficult to do (meaning you still have to weight your choices).

If the game is single player, respeccing shouldn't exist at all. Only multiplayer games should have it but even there it depends. Like it was fine for Dark Souls not to have it since the PvP was a secondary element and besides winning was more about skill than a few points here and there. Only MMOs should allow it for obvious reasons since bricking your character means you don't get to play anymore but then MMOs are mostly shit so that's not even here nor there.
 

whocares

Savant
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Messages
351
Respeccing is terrible and anyone who argues otherwise is a retard. Yes.

Being able to respec at will turns any game from an adventure that sparks imagination into an autistic spreadsheet where you just click buttons to get a quick dopamine hit. Having bad builds is good. Having trap choices is good. Not being able to do something because your character isn't suited for it is good. Having a million feats when only 5 of them are useful for your character is good. Being forced to overcome the results of your blunders is good and what makes gaming memorable. And the funny thing is, not a single game that has respec as an option needs an optimized character to win.

The better question here would be - does this desperate need for respeccing have the same root cause as the tranny epidemic we're going through right now? Is being a tranny and wanting to respec into a woman makes you want to respec in games, or is being able to respec in games is what gives autists the idea to respecc into women irl? Either way, it's autists and trannies all the way down.
 

Ravielsk

Arcane
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,949
Respecializing is a neutral addition. In a well made game its a great addition that lets you experiment without wasting time, in a bad one its at best a band-aid and at worst a active toxic element in game design.

A properly made game should not be feeding the player fake options to choose from. That is like a vending machine selling empty packets of chips, but only sometimes. If certain options are not viable then they shouldn't be there in the first place. Its not the player's job to guess whether they are doing something wrong, missing a piece of the puzzle or the mechanic/stat/skill is broken or unfinished.
 
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Sergio

Scholar
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Jan 14, 2025
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870
You are a retard if you think respeccing should be mandatory in RPGs.
You are a retard if you think I have time to play through a game from 0 again just because I didn't know what's actually good and fucked up my build. Imagine playing Owlcat's games without a respec, and realizing after 100 hours that your character is struggling. Why would I ever waste time playing a gimped character? How is that fun?

You people keep forgetting that these are just video games and your attempts at policing fun are laughable.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
16,438
Troubleshooter has respec at the foundation of its systems and it's excellent.
While I agree it's an excellent game, I don't think respec is the foundation of it's systems. The most important system of droppable passive skills you slot in, is functionally a type of equipment. I can't recall how (or if) it's justified in game, but if it were framed as say, modules on some kind of robot or cyborg, nobody would bat an eye at being able to swap them in and out. Troubleshooter's actual class/talent system can be respecced, but it's a really trivial part- you're only respecing between a few either/or type of options, or switching classes entirely. And I don't count the class switch because you aren't getting that xp back to spend in a different class- you have to level up the new class from scratch. Once you've levelled both you can switch styles to suit the loot you've picked up along the way, and I think that too is fine. Being able to shift a character from 'archer mode' to 'frontliner mode' is reasonable, provided you had to learn both things to begin with, and aren't just magically transferring that shit over. You can make an argument this is superficial (you could achieve the same effect by giving class xp twice as fast so you master both types as quickly as you'd master one and then respec to the other) but that ignores the tradeoff of the middle phase where you could either be an expert at one thing or be adaptable and proficient at both. That's an interesting choice to make, provided relevant challenges exist.


One thing I've never seen in a game is the idea of a partial respec. That is, you can respec your last 5 or 10 levels but no further, like an "undo" button. This gives you the freedom to correct a buildcrafting mistake but still restricts how much you can change. Has anyone seen that?
Tales of Maj'Eyal does this. I think it's only the last one or two levels, but it's enough to at least trial a new spell and see if you want to invest in it further, and see how changes to skills and stats actually shake out in real combat. I'm fine with this too honestly; it makes little sense narratively but it retains the aspect of being invested in your character. "I'm succeeding because I played well." That's the feeling you want from a game. You might get that by changing your character build to adapt to a fight, but that can be accomplished with things like equipment while still retaining permanent aspects of your character.

If you think respecs are a great idea, ask yourself this: Why stop at skills or whatever? Why not let the character race swap too? Or swap classes entirely? "Gee, warriors aren't good at this fight, I'd rather be a wizard" kind of defeats the entire point of having classes to begin with. Throw in turning all your gear into gold at full value and being able to buy whatever kind of item you want on a whim while you're at it. Again, there are games where that kind of drastic shift can be justified, where your party members are disposable or whatever. But to argue all games need that kind of mechanic is insane.

Another problem with respecs is it dramatically restricts the kinds of skills you can put in the game. You can't put something like 'character gains more max health on level up' into a game where you can then spec out of that, and again, that sort of skill (Battle Brothers has something like that) makes for an interesting risk/reward, now/later decision for the player to make. Imagine a game like Civilization if you could just 'respec' your tech tree because you suddenly decided you were done warmongering. That's how a lot of rpgs with a respec feel to me. It robs me of meaningful choices and turns everything into a fleeting optimization problem with no long term consequence- and usually amounts to a lot of tedious busywork in the process.

You are a retard if you think I have time to play through a game from 0 again just because I didn't know what's actually good and fucked up my build. Imagine playing Owlcat's games without a respec, and realizing after 100 hours that your character is struggling. Why would I ever waste time playing a gimped character? How is that fun?
So just turn the difficulty sliders down. You clearly don't care about challenging yourself if you feel that struggling isn't fun. What's the difference between your character having 3 more AC and the enemy having 3 less To hit chance? Nothing except 'hurr durr number is big.'
>It's so much fun to waste your time!!
If the game isn't fun with anything except an optimal build/playstyle, it should have just been a movie instead, because you never really had a choice to begin with. Shitty rpg mechanics don't justify respeccs any more than shitty level design would justify giving everyone noclip.
 

Sergio

Scholar
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Jan 14, 2025
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870
So just turn the difficulty sliders down. You clearly don't care about challenging yourself if you feel that struggling isn't fun. What's the difference between your character having 3 more AC and the enemy having 3 less To hit chance? Nothing except 'hurr durr number is big.'
Struggling because the fights are difficult and struggling because I picked bad talents on level up screen are not the same thing.
 

Iucounu

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
1,529
The better question here would be - does this desperate need for respeccing have the same root cause as the tranny epidemic we're going through right now? Is being a tranny and wanting to respec into a woman makes you want to respec in games, or is being able to respec in games is what gives autists the idea to respecc into women irl? Either way, it's autists and trannies all the way down.
Indeed. Changing the player's equipped gear (such as stealthy agile cloak vs heavy armor) can also be considered (partial) respecing, and most games and gamers allow it to some degree. But in contrast, trannies and full respec games view the body itself as a garment that can be replaced (or at least modified), more than being a part of their identity. Maybe "dissociation" is the correct term for this?
 

Trithne

Magister
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,299
If you're making a 200 hr Pathfinder game, understand that people don't want to replay the whole thing just to try out a different combination of feats against late game encounters.
Stop making 200 hr Pathfinder games and make more compact, interesting experiences that support replays with different builds and the "need" for respecs goes away.
 

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