Rift / Vive / VR General

[KeighnMcDeath]

Oh! A Shadowgate? I'm interested here.

 

[Perkel]

2025 is finally the year when we get Generation 3 VR headsets.
edit: Done with the table.

edit: link to table for corrections in future

 

[deama]

The higher rez is nice, but the 90hz is a damn shame. I was hoping we'd be pushign 165hz with current rez by now...

 

[Perkel]

The higher rez is nice, but the 90hz is a damn shame. I was hoping we'd be pushign 165hz with current rez by now...

Imho right now the biggest issues with VR are still resolution,weight and then FOV. Once you get used to even 72Hz is enough, hell i can even play at 50fps in my pcvr games without issue now.

Resolution is super important because you have quite a difference coming from monitor/tv to vr which doesn't look as crisp.
Weight because it is #1 factor of how much time you will use it per session.

Imho around 200-300gram that is evenly spread on head (like my pico 4 which sits at around 350g) you start to forget you have vr on your head and you don't get VR face, no sweat issues, etc.

FOV because it is just awesome to see so much. Especially after going from monitors or TVs. The only rival to that is 3 monitor setup but you lack 3d and warping is a problem.

 

[deama]

The higher rez is nice, but the 90hz is a damn shame. I was hoping we'd be pushign 165hz with current rez by now...

Imho right now the biggest issues with VR are still resolution,weight and then FOV. Once you get used to even 72Hz is enough, hell i can even play at 50fps in my pcvr games without issue now.

Resolution is super important because you have quite a difference coming from monitor/tv to vr which doesn't look as crisp.
Weight because it is #1 factor of how much time you will use it per session.

Imho around 200-300gram that is evenly spread on head (like my pico 4 which sits at around 350g) you start to forget you have vr on your head and you don't get VR face, no sweat issues, etc.

FOV because it is just awesome to see so much. Especially after going from monitors or TVs. The only rival to that is 3 monitor setup but you lack 3d and warping is a problem.

There's something that got me curious, is there, or has there been an attempt to make sort of like dynamic focus lenses? So it detects if an object is meant to be far away or close and adjusts the lenses on the VR to reflect that?

 

[Perkel]

The higher rez is nice, but the 90hz is a damn shame. I was hoping we'd be pushign 165hz with current rez by now...

Imho right now the biggest issues with VR are still resolution,weight and then FOV. Once you get used to even 72Hz is enough, hell i can even play at 50fps in my pcvr games without issue now.

Resolution is super important because you have quite a difference coming from monitor/tv to vr which doesn't look as crisp.
Weight because it is #1 factor of how much time you will use it per session.

Imho around 200-300gram that is evenly spread on head (like my pico 4 which sits at around 350g) you start to forget you have vr on your head and you don't get VR face, no sweat issues, etc.

FOV because it is just awesome to see so much. Especially after going from monitors or TVs. The only rival to that is 3 monitor setup but you lack 3d and warping is a problem.

There's something that got me curious, is there, or has there been an attempt to make sort of like dynamic focus lenses? So it detects if an object is meant to be far away or close and adjusts the lenses on the VR to reflect that?

it's called varifocal and yes it has been attempted in labs by meta and i think one other manufacturer but it is yet to be moved to production.

With varifocal lenses you will be ableto get object near your eyes and still see it clearly where in current VR headsets you lose clarity and lenses shit the bed. As for far objects there isn't any problems because all VR headsets including gen 1 have set focus to infinitely far horizon

 

[deama]

As for far objects there isn't any problems because all VR headsets including gen 1 have set focus to infinitely far horizon

Not sure I understand this, does that mean you won't get eye issues by wearing them or what?

 

[Perkel]

As for far objects there isn't any problems because all VR headsets including gen 1 have set focus to infinitely far horizon

Not sure I understand this, does that mean you won't get eye issues by wearing them or what?

It means that you can look from very close to furtherst horizon you see without screen becoming blurry. Think of it like a depth of field. IRL depth of field is achieved when you eyes focus on something so things in background are blurry. On other hand if you look at something waaay in horizon things that are close to you are blurry.

 

[Perkel]

first review of megane 8k, probably will get one next month or two.

 

[Perkel]

finished the review of meganex superlight 8k, yeah this is next level. We will probably see Gen3 coming in price around 2029 when Gen 4 will be arriving which won't happen soon. And finally fucking OLED rather than shitty LCD.

I work in VR daily so probably will get one when it will be available, especially with how light it is.

Pluses:
- 4k per eye Micro-OLED with no mura
- perfect color reproduction for color grading
- 10bit HDR support (only other headset than psvr2)
- super light 170g + best halo strap design ever
- wired, no video encoding/decoding or additional latency
- IPD and focus adjustment (for near and far sighted people) build in (astigmatism requires extra lenses)
- adjustable lenses distance from head.
- can be fliped up

Minuses:
- NVIDIA only, does not work with AMD right now
- 95 fov which is standard but less than my pico 4 (105)
- wired, duh...wires.
- no controllers in box, you need steam vr compat ones.
- requires velve lighthouses also not in the box
- slight warping at the edges
- some early software woes

 

[Perkel]

I really want to get meganex 8k but the more i think about it the more annoying it seems.

€1899 inc. tax. That's very doable for me as i use VR for work, but... It doesn't work without ligh-house base stations which i don't have and even with those you need to buy controlers too.

So that leaves me with two options:

1. Buy old Vive for cheap (€130). 2 controlers + 2 base stations. Problem ? Those vive controlers fucking suck. Like 6-7 hours battery live vs literally months on my pico4 or quest. Moreover no touch sensitivity like on knuckles/pico/quest so some games will not be compatible.
2. Buy used index. That's extra €700... and while Velve Knuckles controlers are way nicer with sensitivity they still have shit battery life. Moreover main headset is too old now and no one wants to buy it alone.

Then there is resale value. It is rare expensive headset. Meaning it will be hard sale later especially considering it doesn't come with necessary things for it to work and i would have to AGAIN sell base stations etc. or hope someone will buy it as is.

------------------

I think that Pimax Dream seems to be more and more a better value:

- it comes with insideout tracking and controlers so it is complete headset.
- uses same screen as meganex 8k so same quality (minus calibration and hdr)
- build in audio as well
- eye tracking for fovated rendering (proven 20-30% better FPS and this goes higher the higher resolution you do)

Problem is...

- This is Pimax, so quality control and bugs galore
- No halo design means it still sits on your face unlike meganex
- seems like vaporware. They are supposed to send first units in may but so far no any prototype or physical unit seen, no one tested it either.
- Pimax is still lagging in release of their old announced hardware and have production issues.

---------------------

I think i'll wait 2-3 extra months.
Maybe there will be some bundle for megane with new controlers or something
Maybe Pimax Dream will actually be a real thing and will work great.
Maybe Velve will announce finally Deckard and it will have 4k per eye like those
Maybe there will be some other new player that will come with new better headset.

 

[Venser]

I'm waiting fore Deckard and wonder what will Samsung bring to the table.

2025 is finally the year when we get Generation 3 VR headsets.
edit: Done with the table.

edit: link to table for corrections in future

How does Index have the same FOV as the old HTC Vive? The main feature of Index was always highter FOV. Quest 3 has much higher pixel density than Quest 2.

 

[Perkel]

I'm waiting fore Deckard and wonder what will Samsung bring to the table.


How does Index have the same FOV as the old HTC Vive? The main feature of Index was always highter FOV. Quest 3 has much higher pixel density than Quest 2.

Index does have much higher fov than most of headests as standard FOV is around 90. But HTC vive had the same FOV. When people talked about high FOV they meant it compared to other headsets like quest 1/2, etc. 10 degrees is actually quite a big difference. When I got my pico4 with standard gasket at 95 it felt "normal" but when i removed gasket and increased my fov to 108 i instantly noticed how much wider my fov was and ordered new ultra think cloth gasket.

In general PPD and FOV described by producers is often wrong + there is a degree of subtelty involved as someone with eyeglasses can't get same FOV as someone without glasses. Even face shape might hinder getting maximum FOV. Then there is head gasket design. My Pico4 is rated 100 fov. but the standard gasket is pretty unbending. Once you remove gasket or change to thinner one suddenly you get 108 (in my case).

PPD is calculated by horizontal resolution divided by FOV.
Quest 2 = 1832 / 95 = 19.2ppd
Quest 3 = 2064/ 105 = 19.6ppd

Many people don't understand what is what in Vr and they assume Quest3 resolution is much higher where ppd is almost the same but the main difference between Quest2 and 3 are those pancake lenses that remove a lot of blur, chromatic abberation and you have edge to edge clarity + increased FOV at the same time which causes image to be just sharper, better without increaseing PPD.

There are other notable headsets like Pimax8KX which has 200 degree FOV but those kinds of headsets sold too low or there are issues with those to properly recommend them.

 

[Perkel]

imho after introduction of ~4000x4000 per eye any higher ppd will be barely noticeable so i think this will be finally the moment where most of producers will go with high FOV. Like in my case. I can see going from 1080p to 1440p but going from 1440p to 4k on tv is barely noticeable because i have a bit of stigmatism in both eyes and i can't really see anymore detail without fixing eyes.

As mentioned above going with high FOV now is costing a lot of PPD. Like case of Pimax 8KX which has 200fov and 3800 by 2500 per eye. When you calculate 8KX PPD you get... 3800/200 = 19 aka quest 2 like clarity, if you would do the same resolution for standard 95fov you get nearly 40ppd. 8XK used two screens per eye to get those high fov so it wasn't really possible to get low FOV with them.

 

[Venser]

PPD is calculated by horizontal resolution divided by FOV.
Quest 2 = 1832 / 95 = 19.2ppd
Quest 3 = 2064/ 105 = 19.6ppd
Many people don't understand what is what in Vr and they assume Quest3 resolution is much higher where ppd is almost the same but the main difference between Quest2 and 3 are those pancake lenses that remove a lot of blur, chromatic abberation and you have edge to edge clarity + increased FOV at the same time which causes image to be just sharper, better without increaseing PPD.

There are other notable headsets like Pimax8KX which has 200 degree FOV but those kinds of headsets sold too low or there are issues with those to properly recommend them.

I think I remember reading that Q3 display has a higher density than Q2 even at the same resolution. Aren't sub pixels a thing?

After a quick search I only found this: https://www.uploadvr.com/ifixit-teardown-psvr-2-panels-pentile/

 

[Perkel]

PPD is calculated by horizontal resolution divided by FOV.
Quest 2 = 1832 / 95 = 19.2ppd
Quest 3 = 2064/ 105 = 19.6ppd
Many people don't understand what is what in Vr and they assume Quest3 resolution is much higher where ppd is almost the same but the main difference between Quest2 and 3 are those pancake lenses that remove a lot of blur, chromatic abberation and you have edge to edge clarity + increased FOV at the same time which causes image to be just sharper, better without increaseing PPD.

There are other notable headsets like Pimax8KX which has 200 degree FOV but those kinds of headsets sold too low or there are issues with those to properly recommend them.

I think I remember reading that Q3 display has a higher density than Q2 even at the same resolution. Aren't sub pixels a thing?

After a quick search I only found this: https://www.uploadvr.com/ifixit-teardown-psvr-2-panels-pentile/

Pixel is defined by ability to reproduce color ranging from white through all colors to black. The subpixel arrangement doesn't really matter for PPD as your eye eitherway isn't able to see those subpixels.

Where pixel arrangement comes is when you want to produce accurate color or screen door effect. Like if you have 1 cm and you place pixel every milimiter then you have 100 pixels but that doesn't tell you about the space between pixels. One screen might have big wide black gaps between them while other might have microscopic ones.

Thing is that this was important in GEN1 devices when you had low PPD and you could literally see pixels and space between them. That's why imho PSVR1 had best screen from GEN1 devices because unlike HTC vive or oculus rift their sub pixel structure was in such way that it almost didn't have screen door effect meanwhile you could literally see lines between pixels on HTC vive despite vive having better resolution. I still remember getting "upgrade" over my PSVR1 when i started with VR in shape of HTC VIVE putting it on and instantly realizing it was worse headset. Not only screedoor effect was so big but also fresnel leanses were garbage compared to clear ones in PSVR.

Nowadays it is pretty much impossible to see screen door effect with GEN 2 devices so it doesn't really matter.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

 

[Perkel]

looks like the best GEN2 headset.
What really is weird is that they managed somehow to cram 116 degree fov in that thing which is pretty much the best fov right now from all gen2 headsets.

edit:
>The above comparison is for illustrative purposes and may differ from real-world performance. Actual results may vary. Bigscreen Beyond 2 measured at 116° diagonal, 108° horizontal, 96° vertical. Valve Index measured at 114° diagonal, 110° horizontal, 110° vertical. Meta Quest 3 measured at 110° diagonal, 108° horizontal, 99° vertical. Measured using WIMFOV at minimum eye relief and default accessories.

yeah bullshit fov claims. 108 horizontal. they just use full box without cutting.

If that thing had 4k per eye it wouldbe insta buy.
107g is insane.

edit B2e will also have eye tracking.

 

[Venser]

• Smallest and lightest VR headset, 110g (17g lighter than Bigscreen 1)
• 2560x2560 per eye (same as Bigscreen 1)
• 75Hz native or 90Hz with upscaling
• Eye tracking
• Adjustable IPD
• Universal face mask available
• Much better lenses with wider FOV
• Lighthouse tracking
• €1.369,00
• Release: June 2025

 

[DJOGamer PT]

This might be the first time I'm interested in a VR headset
But I had no idea about they were that expensive...

 

[Ninjerk]

This might be the first time I'm interested in a VR headset
But I had no idea about they were that expensive...

Quest variants are basically the budget option because you can run a lot of soft on the headset itself, but I think some developers may have to be picky about which Quests they plan development for because it ends up compromising quality on better headsets. I personally run VR through WiVRn on a Linux-only box, so its only a quasi-budget item for me (the rest of my spend is on the PC).

 

[Venser]

This might be the first time I'm interested in a VR headset
But I had no idea about they were that expensive...

It's not just the headset, you will have to invest into controllers and lighthouses for tracking as well.

 

[Perkel]

This might be the first time I'm interested in a VR headset
But I had no idea about they were that expensive...

Those are super high end devices, essentially next generation of devices you can buy now rather than in 2028-9.

Pico4 gives you 70% of high end experience for 399 and Quest 3 is about 499. In both of those cases you don't even need pc as they are standalone though imho the best part about VR is PCVR experience. Both of those headsets come with controllers and everything you need to enjoy VR and they are pretty fucking good.

 

[Zarniwoop]

There's zero reason for anything other than a Quest 3.

Sure, it doesn't have the best image quality, best cameras or best anything. But the difference is so small thats it's fucking laughable to pay several times the price for anything else.

And it runs Android, which means it just works with everything else. Standalone, link it to your PC with a good old USB-C cable or even wifi, copy movies to it for when you're travelling and wear a cinema on your head. Pirate games, apps etc with a little work.

Or pay only 4 times the price and get a slightly better FOV. Or only 7 times the price for locked down Apple shit lulz.

 

[Venser]