Review Risen has the best ARPG combat system ever made

[Martin]

I havent played more than 2 hours of risen since I dont have the time right now and cant judge...but how can someone rate gothic 1 and 2's combat higher than gothic 3 for example...even with the unbalances and overdone stunlock effects Gothic 3 has a much better system.

Gothic 1 and 2 combat is a very basic system and one that is far more dependant on stats than actual player skill. I think a single character rpg of this sort should have a deep melee system where the player skill if not the main factor should be at least as important as the character stats.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Now unless fireball got a lot more powerful in its last two stages...

Yes, it did.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

but how can someone rate gothic 1 and 2's combat higher than gothic 3 for example...even with the unbalances and overdone stunlock effects Gothic 3 has a much better system.

Are you serious? It doesn't matter what it looks like on paper, G1 and 2 combat is challenging, apart from near the end (though even here some of the skeletal knights can still be a pain, especially if you are a one handed fighter). The fighting system allows the AI to fight fairly well too, since it isn't overloaded with moves it cannot use properly.

G3 combat is so easy, it is ridiculous. Especially humanoids. It might have all sorts of fancy moves available, but the only one really needed is click click click and repeat for virtually every enemy you come across. I wouldn't define this as a better system due to it being a complete failure in practise.

 

[Murk]

Gothic 2's combat system never breaks. Gothic 3's combat system starts broken since the most basic attack spell kills everything in 2-3 hits, and when you get mana recharge, you just auto-win at the game.

If you played G2 without night of the raven then just stop talking about its challenge - the game changes drastically. If you did play with the expansion then you should know that fighting enemies required you to actually parry, dodge, hit at openings, and all that stuff.

Risen takes those neat aspects and includes a more open ended approach that G3 tried but failed to implement.

In my mage play through I went with frost + stave fighting (being the only weapon I hadn't used so far and preferring the added utility of freezing an enemy over straight damage) and I found it, at mid to high levels, to be an incredibly effective tool. A single hit took off a large chunk of health at level 7 (or 8) of Frost and froze them for over 5 seconds.

This is how it played out - they charged me in a group of 3, I froze all three with frost from a difference, closed in on the one I froze first (closest to thawing) and went for a power hit from behind with the staff - this required them a second to turn around where I didn't give them a chance and combo'd them straight to death. Repeat on second one and the third one usually thawed - another blast of Ice and he's frozen and is either dead or has no health at which point a single hit and he's down.

Gishin' it up ))

 

[Ch1ef]

Gothic 1 and 2 combat is a very basic system and one that is far more dependant on stats than actual player skill. I think a single character rpg of this sort should have a deep melee system where the player skill if not the main factor should be at least as important as the character stats.

SO TRUE

I think a single character rpg of this sort should have a deep melee system where the player skill if not the main factor should be at least as important as the character stats.

:respect:

 

[hal900x]

A game with uber Archery? I won't complain: in the vast majority of RPGs it's gimped. For me it will be fun to pwn with a bow for once. I roll archers in every single RPG if they're available.

 

[Serus]

Gothic 1 and 2 combat is a very basic system and one that is far more dependant on stats than actual player skill. I think a single character rpg of this sort should have a deep melee system where the player skill if not the main factor should be at least as important as the character stats.

And this is bad in a RPG game exactly how ?

- really it is decline.

 

[Soulforged]

And this is bad in a RPG game exactly how ?

- really it is decline.

If you consider the quote in context you can clearly see his point.

The game is not turn based, it's an action RPG with a real time combat component. This kind of games has only two options when it comes to implementation (as far as I can see):

- Make an hybrid: A mixture of statistically determined combat with the player intervention for some its aspects (orientation, input, trigger, flanking, speed, and so on).

- Do away with statistics. Some times the statistics feel silly.

I believe the system in Risen is spot on to some extent: you have complete control whether your character attacks from one angle or the other, you have control over his speed (determined also by the weapon) and the type of attack he performs, so you can plan your combat strategies (even if they're limited). Also every level on a discipline does not better your change to perform an attack, it gives you new attacks and abilities you can use, which is for the best in my opinion.

 

[tarkin]

Fuck. I was enjoying the game until the 4th chapter, cruising through the waves of opponents with my axe power puncher with just a few reloads here and there and they had to fuck it all up.
Now these Lizards are not only stronger and tougher (understandable) but also faster. Faster as in ninja fast, faster than the eye and a fuckin mouse click. I don't have to explain that this all makes an otherwise fine combat system a complete clickfest and clickfest=death. Parrying and counter parrying becomes useless and the only tactic left is to make distance and hulk smash. If it works do it again, if not reload and so on.

For the record, my to be an hero (don't know if i will bother to finish the game) has axes maxed out and 175 str.

 

[Murk]

Except Martin's pretty wrong - the stats only influence which weapon you can wield, chance of a critical hit, and speed of attack - where-as player skill influences whether your attack hits, whether you dodge, whether you parry, whether you combo, which direction you attack, the speed of your combo, and what kind of attack to use.

Even in g1 and g2's basic combat system player skill still over shadows character skill - a person who never learns the combat system cannot hope to win, even with a very powerful character given to the.

 

[Ch1ef]

chance of a critical hit

This is what's kills player's skill - a fuckin random uber hit. Yeah, i just pwnd a trained mercenary(in the armor), but then a fuckin farmer rapes me with a one hit. One hit with a rusty axe. Ugh.

Even in g1 and g2's basic combat system player skill still over shadows character skill - a person who never learns the combat system cannot hope to win, even with a very powerful character given to the.

:cringe:

 

[Murk]

chance of a critical hit

This is what's kills player's skill - a fuckin random uber hit. Yeah, i just pwnd a trained mercenary(in the armor), but then a fuckin farmer rapes me with a one hit. One hit with a rusty axe. Ugh.

Critical hits don't work like that at all in Gothic. The chance of a critical hit is your weapon skill percentage, and on a critical hit, you add your STR to your weapon's Damage Rating. There's nothing random about it, either, it's very simple statistics.

So roughly put if you have 50% skill in a one handed weapon, with 25 STR and a 40damage sword then you do 40 damage (minus enemy's resistance) with a 50% chance of also adding your STR score (of 25) to the damage before calculating enemy's resistance. This is in melee, of course, ranged weapon skill influences chance to hit over range and damage is dependent on dexterity + weapon damage.

The thing you're talking about happens in D&D, not in Gothic 1 and 2 or Risen.

Even in g1 and g2's basic combat system player skill still over shadows character skill - a person who never learns the combat system cannot hope to win, even with a very powerful character given to the.

:cringe:

Except what I said is right - the chances of winning a battle depend more on the player's skill than the character's. Some cases you simply cannot damage the enemy due to too low of a damage output, but if you are a good player you can out-skill enemies that are "too strong for you" early on - like the Orc's roaming around town or some of the stronger beasts.

 

[Ch1ef]

The thing you're talking about happens in D&D, not in Gothic 1 and 2 or Risen.

I just told you what i experienced in a game.

 

[Murk]

Uh huh... in 'a' game? You'll have to be more specific and give an example of which farmer-with-rusty-axe one-shotted you if you could take down a mercenary with no problem. We are talking about Gothic 2, I assume?

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Uh huh... in 'a' game? You'll have to be more specific and give an example of which farmer-with-rusty-axe one-shotted you if you could take down a mercenary with no problem. We are talking about Gothic 2, I assume?

You really think he will answer? I suspect he just pulled a fast one out of his arse because the combat system took a little too much brain power to get the hang of.

Still, I will check back to see what complete load of rubbish is spouted, unless he thought Sentenza is a farmer perhaps (could even he oneshot the character at the start?).

 

[Ch1ef]

Onar's farm, Fester(mercenary) and Bronko (farmer).
And how can you fight agains multiple opponents? For example, bandits on a bridge. You start to fight with melle fighters, but then archer kills you with one shot, even if you're at full health.
Wtf, is my version of Gothic 2 Gold is broken?

 

[Ch1ef]

Uh huh... in 'a' game? You'll have to be more specific and give an example of which farmer-with-rusty-axe one-shotted you if you could take down a mercenary with no problem. We are talking about Gothic 2, I assume?

You really think he will answer? I suspect he just pulled a fast one out of his arse because the combat system took a little too much brain power to get the hang of.

Still, I will check back to see what complete load of rubbish is spouted, unless he thought Sentenza is a farmer perhaps (could even he oneshot the character at the start?).

 

[Murk]

Onar's farm, Fester(mercenary) and Bronko (farmer).

Fester is one of the weakest mercenaries in the game with pretty crappy armor that's barely above the worker clothes that Bronco has on. In fact, Fester even admits to having mediocre melee skills in-game when you talk to him about taking on the field raiders. Bronco on the other hand has a reputation of being a badass and he even runs a mini protection racket. Why wouldn't you expect Bronco to be stronger than Fester as a character, regardless of Fester's extra 15 points of damage resistance from his tier 1 mercenary armor?

Regardless - if you as a player are good enough you could have dodged/blocked Bronco's hits just fine, if you're not and your character just isn't strong enough to deal with him then, well, go build up and/or practice. A trade-off, as you see, of character and player skill.

And how can you fight agains multiple opponents? For example, bandits on a bridge. You start to fight with melle fighters, but then archer kills you with one shot, even if you're at full health.

You must be at a very low level with poor health, I've never been one-shotted by anything other than very strong enemies that I had no business going up against, and even then only in the very beginning of the game (dragon snapper and shadowbeast before I even joined a faction).

Wtf, is my version of Gothic 2 Gold is broken?

pretty sure it's just you... /shrug

edit: Just checked weapon scores, Rusty Axe has a damage rating of 25, and I can't remember what melee weapon Fester uses but it's either a Rough Longsowrd (30) or Rough Two-Hander (35), so his weapons aren't much better either if his character's STR/Melee skill is lower than Bronco's, which it is.

 

[Ch1ef]

very low level

4th

Bronco on the other hand has a reputation of being a badass and he even runs a mini protection racket

FUCKIN QUOTE FROM THE GAME OR IT DIDNT HAPPEND

pretty sure it's just you... /shrug

ZOMG GOTHIC2 COMBAT SYSTEM IS SO COOL AND SMART I WONDER Y THEY DECIDED TO CHANGE IT IN GOTHIC 3

















ZOMG ITSA BOARS! RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

 

[Murk]

Heh. Guess this is the other side of near to none moderation on a forum. Choices and Consequences and all that.

 

[Ch1ef]

 

[Murk]

This must be that butthurt I've heard so much about?

 

[tarkin]

This Bronco dude doesn't have a rusty axe, he has a woodcutters axe which is pretty powerful in the beginning. Just saying.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Wow. What a shitty thread for an official Codex review.

 

[Jaesun]

Ch1ef is the 2nd worst. Alt. Evar.