Editorial RPG Codex Editorial: Without Map, Compass, or Destination - MRY on RPG Writing

[Crescent Hawk]

What have we lost from Icewind Dale 1\2 BG2 to POE and Divinity? What about from SS2 to the recent Prey?
Its not the fucking writing quality although you could point some improvements in the prose etc, and I would not say the labyrinthine aspects of game design, I was having videogame fun in POE up until the first bosses. Prey had great assets just like any triple A game these days.

Its really the themes and the way of telling stories we have lost somewhere. I know this is lame and undefinable to say shit has lost soul, but honestly despite some good games out there, we have lost. It like asking to bring back prog rock, you could try but can you?
You can tell the latest Warhammer Mechanicus game is very well written but what actually makes is that the devs feel the 40k silliness and go along with it, but its rare for this to happen.

Just rambling now.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

You can copy the successful systems, but that's about it.

You can copy and tweak them if you understand them properly, but that requires years of self-conscious gameplay, analysis and genuine passion for cRPGs. You see Sawyer presenting himself as if he was the cRPG nerd of Obsidian, always talking about THC and itemization with fancy words, but the truth is that he is just plain and ignorant as they come. Did anyone here played Atom RPG? It’s really a cool game, but the developers don’t understand what is “under the hood” of their own game. They know how to implement cool quests, story and a map, but they can’t make a decent combat system if their lives depended on it. It’s a trend now: cRPG developers that know next to nothing when it comes to the combat system part. The culprit? Storyfagism.

Notice how people talk about how cool it is to have animations to avoid text in cRPGs. Now try to imagine how The Witcher 3 would look like if you had to control a team of six characters and tactical aspects. Does that even make sense? It does not. These cRPGs with expensive graphics are so obviously out of tune with traditional cRPGs that they should be promptly ignored. Let’s leave them to the fans of popamole shooters… I mean action cRPGs.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Torment spend 5 years in development. 5 years. If that's not enough of a time frame to provide some internal coaching and critique, that's a colossal failure of management, producers and the creative leads. Hey, wait a second, the entire justification for running another Kickstarter was so the writers can get enough time to get vexxed and polished and to put their work through revisions. Remember that shit?

That was the sales pitch. Meanwhile evidently everything was so rushed that "audition" ended up going straight into the game. So much about those famous iterations Fargo loved to brag about.

You can't blame the failings of Numanuma on natural workings of games industry and inherent challenges of a job, when it was obviously a poorly run, poorly planned and poorly executed project with absent CEO, incompetent producer and self-fellating lead writer.

Mark was so traumatised by the T:ToN fiasco, that he is projecting his personal experience with inXile problems to the whole industry. It’s telling.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Its really the themes and the way of telling stories we have lost somewhere. I know this is lame and undefinable to say shit has lost soul, but honestly despite some good games out there, we have lost. It like asking to bring back prog rock, you could try but can you?
You can tell the latest Warhammer Mechanicus game is very well written but what actually makes is that the devs feel the 40k silliness and go along with it, but its rare for this to happen.

Good point. ''EVIL GUY WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD, YOU MUST BEAT HIM'' works just fine and will never get old. Warhammer guys understand that.
PoE2 and Numanuma writing arrogantly ditched that too readily in favour of something more intelligent.... but the more intelligent thing was wimpy, faggy, postmodern.
I can sympathise with wanting to do something more intelligent than ''you must beat the ambitious angry demon'', but you have to think of something that's actually worthwhile to replace it with.

And even the stories that first come to mind as being more sophisticated than 'RESCUE WORLD, KILL BIG BAD', still have big elements of that left in it. Kotor2 still has you beat Darth Nihilus, who is a demon that kills worlds, and it still has you disable a very, very big bomb. The Transcendent One in Planescape is a big bad demon and you do learn that the way TNO's immortality worked was slowly 'killing the planes'. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain is highly intelligent and inventive, but it doesn't get rid of the trope, just inverts it by having the protagonist kill a bunch of world-ending evil big bads, only to become the worst of them, the Vampire King who drenches the world in blood. Undertale subverts things by making Asgore a nice guy (yes I know, Undertale is for 13 year old girls, but it's the Planescape of 13 year old girls), but Asgore is still this demonic child-killer in a sense, and there's also Flowey lurking in the other endings.

All these great stories still keep a lot of the basic 'kill big bad' trope around even when they subvert/alter it, or do other stuff (like Kreia's weird agenda). So who the hell do the Numanuma and PoE2 clowns think they are getting rid of it entirely? They were left with a pathetic mush because they destroyed a basic structural feature of the heroic adventure narrative.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Good point. ''EVIL GUY WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD, YOU MUST BEAT HIM'' works just fine and will never get old.

That’s a moronic statement. Just because pretentious purple prose sucks doesn’t mean caveman writing is good. There is a middle ground between pretentious and unimaginative prose.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Good point. ''EVIL GUY WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD, YOU MUST BEAT HIM'' works just fine and will never get old.

That’s a moronic statement. Just because pretentious purple prose sucks doesn’t mean caveman writing is good. There is a middle ground between pretentious and unimaginative prose.

I wasn't talking about about the level of prose at all, I was talking about the plot structure where there's a Big Bad who wants to destroy everything and you, the heroic protagonist, must stop him. I guess you got the wrong end of the stick because of my overuse of capitals.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

It like asking to bring back prog rock, you could try but can you?

Have you tried Flower Kings? Especially last two albums?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It like asking to bring back prog rock, you could try but can you?

Have you tried Flower Kings? Especially last two albums?

I have yet to hear a modern prog rock album that isn't just mindlessly parroting the classic bands, reusing old formulas without trace of creativity and missing the soul of it all. Which makes it a good analogy for modern developers trying to parrot classic isometric games.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

As far as the question of difficulty of figuring out whats the best form of writing (as in text, story and dialogues) for an RPG...

There is no such thing. There is no answer except that the question is wrong.

Because there are many different kinds of RPGs and each one of those kinds is different in itself. duh.
So there cannot be one single systemic approach to any structure of writing - for RPGs.
In each case you have to adapt the written text to the whole shape and rhythm of the game and its mechanics, setting, quests, combat systems, etc, etc..

Thats also one of the reasons why "writing" games is not just done by words and text but by every single feature of the whole game.

 

[StaticSpine]

You can tell the latest Warhammer Mechanicus game is very well written

I was surprised by this. Enjoyed the writing and overall narrative design a lot.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

>Unlike in other fields, an RPG writer reaches a professional level in the near complete absence of coaching, junior leagues, and "practice" -- particularly with regard to the design and implementation of conversations.

Is he retarded? What does he think English majors do? Has he never read a book that includes dialogue? Go take a creative writing class or two at community college if you're that bad at your job.

 

[Roguey]

Is he retarded? What does he think English majors do? Has he never read a book that includes dialogue? Go take a creative writing class or two at community college if you're that bad at your job.

He's specifically referring to branching dialogue, which is alleged to have given prose writers some difficulty.

 

[111111111]

Is he retarded? What does he think English majors do? Has he never read a book that includes dialogue? Go take a creative writing class or two at community college if you're that bad at your job.

He's specifically referring to branching dialogue, which is alleged to have given prose writers some difficulty.

How so?

Genuine question for instance, What makes the process of writing a branching dialogue harder than a linear form?

Is it the process of envisioning responses that the audience can relate with or is it the fact that it is more work in general.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

He's specifically referring to branching dialogue, which is alleged to have given prose writers some difficulty.

So what? How many drafts do you think novel writers go through?

Step 1: Write a character
- Here is X
- X has these goals
- X has had these experiences
- This is what X believes in
- This the kind of person X is
Step 2: Put character in situation, and write how that character would react
- Say THING 1 to X -> X would respond like this
- Say THING 2 to X -> X would respond like that

It's not that hard. The issue is that most people who write for RPGs are bad at writing, which is why they write for RPGs.

 

[Roguey]

How so?

Genuine question for instance, What makes the process of writing a branching dialogue harder than a linear form?

Is it the process of envisioning responses that the audience can relate with or is it the fact that it is more work in general.

It's more work and more difficult to get into the mindset of "The player character should be able to respond to this sentence in these different ways" followed by "the non-player character will then respond to that in these ways" and where you go on from there. The Bioware lazy hack solution to the latter is to include a lot of "false" role-playing choices where different PC responses lead to the same NPC result (or the slightly less lazy solution, one different node of dialogue followed by a converging).

(Additionally, you have to manage all this while considering the word budget on anything with voice over and/or localization costs.)

 

[Darth Roxor]

How so?

Genuine question for instance, What makes the process of writing a branching dialogue harder than a linear form?

Is it the process of envisioning responses that the audience can relate with or is it the fact that it is more work in general.

When you have a big tree with branches growing all over the place with additional sub-branches, it's difficult to maintain the proper flow between individual nodes. By the time you finish one branch and get to the other, you can forget what the first node contained and put ugly repetitions into the subsequent ones without even realising it.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

When you have a big tree with branches growing all over the place with additional sub-branches, it's difficult to maintain the proper flow between individual nodes. By the time you finish one branch and get to the other, you can forget what the first node contained and put ugly repetitions into the subsequent ones without even realising it.

Why is that especially hard?
- Write branch 1
- Write branch 2
- Write sub-branch 2.5
- Write sub-branch 2.51
- Write sub-branch 2.52
- Write Branch 3
- Etc.

Plop them all down into an excel spreadsheet. Edit the ones that need editing, take out the ones you don't like, combine the ones that need combining, and move along.

Besides, I don't think this is the problem people have with RPG writing. People are willing to overlook only having a few real options if the writing quality is excellent. It just so turns out that most RPG writing is cringeworthy, bland, high school-tier D&D copypastas.

 

[Tigranes]

He's specifically referring to branching dialogue, which is alleged to have given prose writers some difficulty.

So what? How many drafts do you think novel writers go through?

Step 1: Write a character
- Here is X
- X has these goals
- X has had these experiences
- This is what X believes in
- This the kind of person X is
Step 2: Put character in situation, and write how that character would react
- Say THING 1 to X -> X would respond like this
- Say THING 2 to X -> X would respond like that

It's not that hard. The issue is that most people who write for RPGs are bad at writing, which is why they write for RPGs.

It's not that hard, and that's why you will create for us the next great RPG!

Oh wait, your shocking final conclusion was also already covered in the original article.

How can you write, when you cannot read?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Why is that especially hard?

because it is

- Write branch 1
- Write branch 2
- Write sub-branch 2.5
- Write sub-branch 2.51
- Write sub-branch 2.52
- Write Branch 3
- Etc.

congratulations, but the time you got to sub-branch 2.52, you've completely forgotten what the build-up to branch 2 was and you start subconsciously re-using similar vocabulary and constructions

then by the time you finished "etc." you give it all a quick looksie and everything looks fine

and then the playa plays ur shit game, and instead of picking branch 2 -> 2.5 -> 51 -> 52 as you've written them, he picks 2 -> 2.52 and has a deja vu, forcing him to send darth roxor angry pms to write a scathing revio

 

[111111111]

How so?

Genuine question for instance, What makes the process of writing a branching dialogue harder than a linear form?

Is it the process of envisioning responses that the audience can relate with or is it the fact that it is more work in general.

When you have a big tree with branches growing all over the place with additional sub-branches, it's difficult to maintain the proper flow between individual nodes. By the time you finish one branch and get to the other, you can forget what the first node contained and put ugly repetitions into the subsequent ones without even realising it.

That's definatly true but some NPC's are straight up written as static characters. They're personality and responses won't change no matter what you respond to them. This might indirectly cause some repetition because when dealing with static characters your responses end up being same regardless.


ex:
You're meeting a bad guy who wants to kill you

3 choices:

>Kill him
>Try to convince him to not kill you
> another variation of choice 2

--------------------------------------------------

Well, the bad guy is written as a single minded person so no matter what, your choice ends up coming to choice 1 leading to you spitting out that same angry battle taunt like:

"Oh yea, fuck you Overseer!"

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Oh wait, your shocking final conclusion was also already covered in the original article.

How can you write, when you cannot read?

He doesn't say RPG writers are bad at writing. He blames everything on "(1) a tiny talent pool in a field that requires writers to perform in two distinct domains; (2) a lack of metrics to assess RPG writing that leaves those writers without useful guidance; and (3) a development cycle that leaves no time for revision." These things != talentless writers with juvenile sensibilities and plebeian taste. Or perhaps you can't read?

congratulations, but the time you got to sub-branch 2.52, you've completely forgotten what the build-up to branch 2 was and you start subconsciously re-using similar vocabulary and constructions

then by the time you finished "etc." you give it all a quick looksie and everything looks fine

and then the playa plays ur shit game, and instead of picking branch 2 -> 2.5 -> 51 -> 52 as you've written them, he picks 2 -> 2.52 and has a deja vu, forcing him to send darth roxor angry pms to write a scathing revio

So either don't have the memory of a goldfish, or read what you wrote up to branchY, and then continue from there. Simple solution to a simple problem.

And what's wrong with a certain character using similar vocabulary or sentence structure? People have verbal ticks in real life, so it's not surprising that a character should too.

Again, the problem is flat out talentless writers. For example, look at the Outer Worlds. Mr. Toothpaste Scientists speaks in preposition-laden word salad. Why? Because the subhuman Deadfire holdover writers have never spoken to a person smarter than themselves for more than 30 seconds, and so they think that prepositions = smart person speak (much the same conclusion a high school freshman would make). Now that is bad writing.

 

[Tigranes]

Some people really just want to pick a particular target, blame them singularly for everything, and enjoy getting really angry about it.

Intelligent people take stock of the the incompetence, stupidity and malice of the people involved, as well as all the other factors that make up the picture.

MRY extensively discusses how the video game writing industry is caught in a bad place where it cannot attract the creme of the writing crop. So not only do you get less talented/successful writers in general, those writers also struggle to adapt themselves to the production pipelines of a video game. If, at the very least, we had writers that were not good writers but understood video games extremely well, and if those writers were managed better by leads/companies with regards to the whole process, then we would at least make the most of their limited talent.

"Fucking dumbass writers are so shit and anybody talking about anything else is making excuses" or "omfg what do you want a 80 year training workshop" is another example of getting ragey and throwing tantrums when the "other side" doesn't even really disagree.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

How can you write, when you cannot read?

A lot of people on this prestigious RPG forum only seem to process one sentence per paragraph. No wonder this place has so much trouble with “purple prose.”

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

How can cRPG writers know fuck all about their craft if they don’t even play cRPGs? Studios hire self-entitled people who majored in gender studies and despise cRPGs as a white male supremacist hobby and people wonder why the writing sucks. We can't afford to be that naive.

 

[Tigranes]

How can cRPG writers know fuck all about their craft if they don’t even play cRPGs? Studios hire self-entitled people who majored in gender studies and despise cRPGs as a white male supremacist hobby and people wonder why the writing sucks. We can't afford to be that naive.

Actually, one of the problems is that whereas older writers had jobs, education and hobbies that provided them with a wide variety of quality inspirations (see: the non-gaming background of the Ultima VII writer in the Antiquarian retrospective, or even someone like Chris Avellone hugely valuing real history as a source of inspiration), a lot of newer writers grow up doing nothing but playing video games (and not necessarily incline ones at that). So when you grow up on a range of Baldur's Gate to Oblivion, and perhaps some fantasy novels, then what you create is going to be pretty derivative.

Video game writers shouldn't read 8 million feminist books then try to hamfistedly shove it into a CRPG (same goes for Nazis or hardcore communists or whatever, I don't care), but it's also a problem that they go omg I played games 16 hours a day now I get to create one of my own squee! The industry would benefit if it was able to attract a wider variety of talented people from a wide range of backgrounds (both political/cultural and literary/artistic), but as MRY pointed out, one of the problems is that the video game writing job is not prestigious or rewarding enough to do so.

Edit: And yeah, I know what you're saying - that they should actually learn more about the classic incline CRPGs and appreciate what goes into an actually great game. We saw with felipepepe's enterprise how blind even developers can be to the great works in their own line of work. I do agree on that.