RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[2house2fly]

I hadn't considered the animation aspect (although if you were doing a ME game, you would have to invest in that, too - I've rarely worked on a game with relationships that needed cinematics except for Alpha Protocol, and you're right, those were still an additional time sink to be sure), but adding a relationship arc can be as tough as adding another companion quest. You can sometimes unite the two, or share design and dialogue elements to make it easier, but it can be a lot more work to do properly.

Also, even when the romance is consummated, you'd still need appropriate reactivity to that (maybe not just in the core game, but in future games that save scripting states). It's likely why companion relationships were a stretch goal in PoE2: They're expensive to do.

I'm sure your memories of working on Alpha Protocol are pure poison and you'd like to forget about it, but as a player I found it amazing. I've never played a game before or since where I felt like I was making such big ripples with even tiny actions, and the fact it bombed adds to the mystique, since sometimes I didn't know what I'd done to cause something to happen the way it did- compared to something like Bloodborne, whose popularity means you can just look up any little aspect of it on the wiki

Chris Avellone Is there any truth to the fan theory that Bethesda hate and are intimidated by the popularity of Fallout: New Vegas?

(I hope you can treat FO:NV with objectivity despite whatever ~process issues~ you may have suffered from during its development, the game's cult classic status is undeniable)

lol you're running out of things to grill him about at this point

 

[Quillon]

:D who dis?

 

[Infinitron]

This leads to another interesting question - was the interview's release coordinated with Chris in advance? I've thoght about this but haven't asked for a number of reasons. There's no way to confirm, and it would give ammo to the other side if the answer is yes.

I didn't coordinate anything, but I will say I could have published the interview as much as a week earlier. You can ask Fairfax whether it's a coincidence that after years of interviewing, the final piece happened to be turned in two weeks before PoE2's release....

:D who dis?

azimuth

 

[felipepepe]

So Chris Avellone , what is the true story behind FNV? I keep hearing how bathesda farked o*sidian with the metacritic score?

I don't believe they did at all - it was our responsibility to do more to make the game better, but the people making the decisions on game quality kept getting distracted by shiny objects.

It was Obsidian's fault, and as Ferg said, Bethesda didn't even have to offer that in the contract at all - it was up to us to manage it to a successful quality completion, and we didn't succeed at that. Good people lost their jobs because of that.

This is very interesting. Among players this is often seen as "Bethesda is EVIL and screwed Obsidian out of their money", but seems like it was really a "good job!" bonus that Bethesda proposed and Obsidian simply failed to meet the expectations.

This thread has been eye-opening in so many ways...

 

[Quillon]

In a - Parker, believing what Avellone said, somehow firing Josh - scenario... would you feel guilty MCA? :D

 

[Infinitron]

This is very interesting. Among players this is often seen as "Bethesda is EVIL and screwed Obsidian out of their money", but seems like it was really a "good job!" bonus that Bethesda proposed and Obsidian simply failed to meet the expectations.

This thread has been eye-opening in so many ways...

Some of the questions that people are asking ITT aren't new information. This is something that Feargus has admitted himself in interviews, as Chris states, though in less harsh language

 

[Alpan]

There's much appreciation for the sauciness in MCA's revelations ITT, but hardly any indignation at what seems to be an obvious conclusion to draw from all this: Obsidian probably didn't need the Kickstarter to make Eternity, and even if they did, they almost certainly didn't need the Codex rallying on their behalf with a fundraiser of its own. The money probably helped line the upper management's pockets more than anything else. Probably something to consider the next time the Codex ponders being a champion of the old school cause.

 

[CrustyBot]

So Chris Avellone , what is the true story behind FNV? I keep hearing how bathesda farked o*sidian with the metacritic score?

I don't believe they did at all - it was our responsibility to do more to make the game better, but the people making the decisions on game quality kept getting distracted by shiny objects.

It was Obsidian's fault, and as Ferg said, Bethesda didn't even have to offer that in the contract at all - it was up to us to manage it to a successful quality completion, and we didn't succeed at that. Good people lost their jobs because of that.

This is very interesting. Among players this is often seen as "Bethesda is EVIL and screwed Obsidian out of their money", but seems like it was really a "good job!" bonus that Bethesda proposed and Obsidian simply failed to meet the expectations.

This thread has been eye-opening in so many ways...

Definitely. While we shouldn't get so swept up in believing everything MCA says as gospel simply because Chris' own perspective might not illuminate the entire truth of what goes on in his stories; it's certainly gotten me to re-examine the way I look at Obsidian and the tumultuous development process many of their games went through.

 

[Infinitron]

Chris Avellone Two questions:

1) Do you think Obsidian, in the past, has taken advantage of publishers by dragging development on longer than necessary to be able to keep a team employed for longer (which is virtuous in its own way, of course). I'm thinking in particular of South Park, which seems to have taken way too long to develop for what it is, and kept Obsidian alive through some hard times. Feargus has laid some of the blame for this on Trey Parker and Matt Stone for constantly changing requirements, but maybe that's not the entire truth. Another game that might fit this category is Alpha Protocol.

2) What do you think of Dungeon Siege 3? Fans consider it forgettable, but my understanding is that within Obsidian the game is considered a milestone, the harbinger of what we call the "Nu-Obsidian" that prizes more efficient project management over the scope-busting excesses of the past.

 

[Briosafreak]

So Chris Avellone , what is the true story behind FNV? I keep hearing how bathesda farked o*sidian with the metacritic score?

I don't believe they did at all - it was our responsibility to do more to make the game better, but the people making the decisions on game quality kept getting distracted by shiny objects.

Hmmmmmmmmm of course it was mainly Obsidians fault, but I got the press copies for review for both FO3 and F:NV, and they were both bugged to hell, yet the first got all 90% reviews, and New Vegas got three reviews from sites that had Bethesda publicity/sponsoring with less than 80% or 80%. So I wouldn't be so sure about the good faith of the marketing/management side of Beth, even if the development side is innocent of any wrongdoing. And as you know MCA I should know.

<3 Chris Avellone

 

[felipepepe]

Some of the questions that people are asking ITT aren't new information. This is something that Feargus has admitted himself in interviews, as Chris states, though in less harsh language

But Feargus wouldn't bad-mouth Bethesda in public, so anything he said in this sense could be read as "let's not burn bridges".

 

[Imoens pet]

If you guys hate life, you should check out the steam forums.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/0/1696046342849684188/?ctp=17

It's too autistic.

 

[Quillon]

If you guys hate life, you should check out the steam forums.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/0/1696046342849684188/?ctp=17

It's too autistic.

Barely keeping up with this thread.

 

[Mustawd]

fuck you

Orma , Tzaero , Hobo Elf , Barnabas , Maxie .

Good night I love you.

 

[Imoens pet]

If you guys hate life, you should check out the steam forums.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/0/1696046342849684188/?ctp=17

It's too autistic.

Barely keeping up with this thread.

Just ignore the shit posts my dude.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Ah, he finally mentioned Sawyer. The Avellonians and the Sawyerities can finally hug it out and have manly sweaty buttsex.

 

[2house2fly]

There's much appreciation for the sauciness in MCA's revelations ITT, but hardly any indignation at what seems to be an obvious conclusion to draw from all this: Obsidian probably didn't need the Kickstarter to make Eternity, and even if they did, they almost certainly didn't need the Codex rallying on their behalf with a fundraiser of its own. The money probably helped line the upper management's pockets more than anything else. Probably something to consider the next time the Codex ponders being a champion of the old school cause.

Actually, I would not put it this way.

More money from *any* source is an *opportunity* to make things *better*. What the example of the KS shows is that Ob*idian is incompetent.

Change your avatar or die.

 

[L'Montes]

I felt compelled to make an account after reading 100+ pages of this (and reading about it on reddit/obsidian forums/etc.). I'd typically just lurk the reviews here.

The original interview began so long ago, that is seems unlikely that there was any particular motive behind it. I'm a bit curious about the endgame of all the posts here since then, or... what he might hope would come of blunt appraisals of former staff/etc. Netizens clearly get off on the scandalous angle, but I'm just not sure what can come of it?

It's sad though. I think given the opportunity to just shoot questions at Chris, I'd be more inclined to ask about his oeuvre than work scandals. At the same time, I remember shooting a question about PoE to the Obsidian Q&A at PAX, and whether their game with "free rein" had been limited or made overly conventional for some reason. It feels like at least some of the behind-the-scenes interactions have impacted the products I wound up with in a negative fashion.

Also nice to see the memetic Sawyer/Avellone stuff shot down too though, I suppose.

 

[Imoens pet]

Some guy named Gregorovitch over on steam, hates Chris.

 

[Bester]

Jones also used the word "impossible" more liberally than he should in terms of what programming could do - and would never contradict it even when he realized it wasn't true, which was equally amazing. If you ever wonder why KOTOR2 couldn't auto-read save files (like every other RPG on console and PC could once BioWare decided to make it so), you can thank Jones for evaluating it as "impossible." Again, please note that he realized he was wrong, but he chose never to say anything about that. I have no idea why.

I remember a video from early POE beta, where they filmed a morning meeting. A vfx artist asked if the programmers could implement some simple console command to let him test spells easier in game somehow, I don't remember the details. And someone said "nope, impossible, sorry..." and there was some uncomfortable silence for 10 seconds. I was already familiar with poe's code at the time, so I knew that it would take literally 10-15 minutes to code, which I even did in the IEmod to test my idea.

I was going like "but why... why? why didn't they help their colleague with something as simple? WHY?". Now I know why. I may have even posted about it here and received the usual "oh you so smart, smarter than everyone, fuck you bester you retard, Obsidian knows better".

Also, I remember that presentation where Josh said it took them a month to make a revolver reload in FN:V and to be able to interrupt reloading. A month. Fucking Christ in a wheel chair. It was probably an owner who was doing it.

 

[Imoens pet]

I felt compelled to make an account after reading 100+ pages of this (and reading about it on reddit/obsidian forums/etc.). I'd typically just lurk the reviews here.

The original interview began so long ago, that is seems unlikely that there was any particular motive behind it. I'm a bit curious about the endgame of all the posts here since then, or... what he might hope would come of blunt appraisals of former staff/etc. Netizens clearly get off on the scandalous angle, but I'm just not sure what can come of it?

It's sad though. I think given the opportunity to just shoot questions at Chris, I'd be more inclined to ask about his oeuvre than work scandals. At the same time, I remember shooting a question about PoE to the Obsidian Q&A at PAX, and whether their game with "free rein" had been limited or made overly conventional for some reason. It feels like at least some of the behind-the-scenes interactions have impacted the products I wound up with in a negative fashion.

Also nice to see the memetic Sawyer/Avellone stuff shot down too though, I suppose.

;makes you think emote activate;

 

[Sensuki]

I remember a video from early POE beta, where they filmed a morning meeting. A vfx artist asked if the programmers could implement some simple console command to let him test spells easier in game somehow, I don't remember the details. And someone said "nope, impossible, sorry..." and there was some uncomfortable silence for 10 seconds. I was already familiar with poe's code at the time, so I knew that it would take literally 10-15 minutes to code, which I even did in the IEmod to test my idea.

I remember this, we then sent the code to Obsidian and they said thanks, but we won't use it.

 

[Bester]

I remember a video from early POE beta, where they filmed a morning meeting. A vfx artist asked if the programmers could implement some simple console command to let him test spells easier in game somehow, I don't remember the details. And someone said "nope, impossible, sorry..." and there was some uncomfortable silence for 10 seconds. I was already familiar with poe's code at the time, so I knew that it would take literally 10-15 minutes to code, which I even did in the IEmod to test my idea.

I remember this, we then sent the code to Obsidian and they said thanks, but we won't use it.

Oh, yeah, I completely forgot that we even sent it to them, it was like 20 lines. Hilarious.

 

[Sensuki]

I think Brennecke just veto'd it and that was that (but I'm not 100% sure on that). I spoke with Adler, I don't think I have the PM anymore but he was basically saying they weren't going to look at the IE mod code until after release.

 

[Infinitron]

Hmmm, and yet the evidence suggests that Obsidian if anything has a stronger technical and production backbone (programming, art) than some of the other studios we watch on the Codex. Something I posted in the Torment thread last year:

I feel like inXile suffer from being a small developer working in a "jack of all trades, master of none" mode. You get the impression that there's nobody there who is really good at any one thing. You can't make great RPGs like that, they demand mastery.

One of the reasons why I scoff at Fairfax-style statements that "Obsidian is a shadow of its former self" because of the writers who have left them, is that throughout it all they've managed to preserve a core of high quality technical staff. Artists, programmers. That's the spine of a good game. The people at inXile love talking about how they "iterate" but you can't iterate effectively when you don't have a grasp on the fundamentals.

I think maybe that's why they talk about it so much, because it takes them more time than it takes other studios. Obsidian doesn't need to talk about iteration because it comes easier to them, they just do it.

Other than a few recent quibbles about PoE2's portraits (which I think may have been addressed in the final release), you don't see Obsidian, for example, get accused of not being able to put together a decent UI no matter how many iterations they go through.

So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that "Obsidian == shitty programming". I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, compensated by fairly decent technical backbone".