Codex Preview RPG Codex Preview: No Truce With The Furies

[Zombra]

ESh
Ah, I did misunderstand. Apologies :D

I think having some dice rolls is better. Screwing up something you should usually succeed at, or succeeding at something you're not that great at, can be wonderfully fun. People aren't monoliths, and personality traits aren't always reliable, even if they are part of one's "core identity".

There's a reason dice rolls are still used in P&P, even for characters with high or low skill levels.

And the nice thing is? If you're playing the game and you get pissed off at a dice roll? You can reload the game. The opposite is not true for those of us who like dice rolls and a game that does not have them.

 

[Prime Junta]

About die rolls.

One of the things that bugs me about most RPG systems (PnP and computer) is that they're too random. You get stupid stuff where, say, somebody who can barely dog-paddle has a 25% chance of making it across a river alive, and an Olympic-class swimmer has a 5% chance of drowning on the same trip. The probability for the dog-paddler might make sense, depending, but the Olympic-class swimmer's drown probability should be, effectively, zero -- it just wouldn't happen without some contributing cause, like a sudden heart attack or something.

I.e. in my view stochastics should only be used in edge cases -- when the player is attempting something that's at the limit of their abilities. Most of the time it should be either automatic success or automatic failure, or at most tiny probabilities for a lucky break or the converse -- and these, in my view, are better dealt with through GM fiat or dedicated mechanics (à la Fate points in the system of the same name).

(This is trickier when it comes to social interactions though, these are inherently unpredictable. In PnP these are better dealt with by RP, but in a computer game... yeah, different challenge.)

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

One of the things that bugs me about most RPG systems (PnP and computer) is that they're too random. You get stupid stuff where, say, somebody who can barely dog-paddle has a 25% chance of making it across a river alive, and an Olympic-class swimmer has a 5% chance of drowning on the same trip. The probability for the dog-paddler might make sense, depending, but the Olympic-class swimmer's drown probability should be, effectively, zero -- it just wouldn't happen without some contributing cause, like a sudden heart attack or something.

That's what the 5% is meant to represent: something happens to keep the olympic swimmer from reaching the other side, whether a shark or a heart attack. It's a lazy copout for devs so they don't actually have to include sharks or heart attacks, but no less lazy than a threshold system where the possibility of sharks and heart attacks is altogether excluded.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's what the 5% is meant to represent: something happens to keep the olympic swimmer from reaching the other side, whether a shark or a heart attack. It's a lazy copout for devs so they don't actually have to include sharks or heart attacks, but no less lazy than a threshold system where the possibility of sharks and heart attacks is altogether excluded.

Yeah but 5% is way too big. No swimmer would be able to get to Olympic level that way, they'd drown before they've got the experience. And having to roll for, say, 1/10000 probabilities is kinda dumb. Hence my preference for dedicated "luck" or "fate" mechanics (or GM fiat).

 

[AwesomeButton]

Everyone is concentrating on that music question/fascism stat increase, but I'm not sureif I have enough context to judge. If it's a small increase for a small action, then it's ok. Also we don't know what exactly does a stat named after a certain ideology represent.

This leads me to a question I was going to ask, about liberalism in specific, but I guess it applies to the rest of the ideologies - what exactly does "liberalism" stand for ideologically in this game? The meaning and the set of ideas described as "liberalism" changed a lot between the 19th and 21st century.

 

[thesheeep]

Not sure about other rule systems, but in Shadowrun you can say that you want to automatically succeed a skill check (at GM discretion, of course). It only works if your skill is high enough, of course, and it is then assumed that it takes a while longer, but you will succeed.
But even if not an official rule, I would say that's a pretty good house rule (and an easy to implement option for games as well).

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yeah but 5% is way too big.

That's because everyone's aping the shitfest that is d20.

 

[Prime Junta]

I've been biting my tongue about this but just failed a Will check. I am going to go ahead an EXPLAIN that there fascist thing that's triggering so many of you. Because it's pretty obvious really.

"You're black."

This is pretty innocuous. It's a statement of fact. An observation. Nothing much to shout about there.

"So, what kind of music do you people listen to these days?"

Now, this one has an underlying assumption: that a group of people identified by their skin colour also share a taste in music. I.e., when you're asking this, you're no longer addressing the girl as an individual likely to have her own tastes in music, but as a member of an amorphous mass which all listens to the same kind of music. That assumption right there is ray-cist. Pretty innocuous, but the racism is present, and it suggests that you very likely harbour other assumptions about people with dark skin as well, many of which may not be so innocuous.

For shits and giggles, substitute "white" for "black:"

"You're white."
"Yes."
"So, what kind of music do you people listen to these days?"

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

(N.b.: you can substitute things there which would make the exchange not racist, and which would make sense. A subculture marker, like "surfer," for example.)

 

[Prime Junta]

That's because everyone's aping the shitfest that is d20.

Likely.

Some systems have clever and arithmetic-friendly ways of producing nice bell curves. Like, roll a handful of d6s and count the 1s or 6s. But in general it is IMO a common problem.

 

[ArchAngel]

I've been biting my tongue about this but just failed a Will check. I am going to go ahead an EXPLAIN that there fascist thing that's triggering so many of you. Because it's pretty obvious really.

"You're black."

This is pretty innocuous. It's a statement of fact. An observation. Nothing much to shout about there.

"So, what kind of music do you people listen to these days?"

Now, this one has an underlying assumption: that a group of people identified by their skin colour also share a taste in music. I.e., when you're asking this, you're no longer addressing the girl as an individual likely to have her own tastes in music, but as a member of an amorphous mass which all listens to the same kind of music. That assumption right there is ray-cist. Pretty innocuous, but the racism is present, and it suggests that you very likely harbour other assumptions about people with dark skin as well, many of which may not be so innocuous.

For shits and giggles, substitute "white" for "black:"

"You're white."
"Yes."
"So, what kind of music do you people listen to these days?"

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

(N.b.: you can substitute things there which would make the exchange not racist, and which would make sense. A subculture marker, like "surfer," for example.)

This pretty much sums up my thoughts but I think the bigger issues some people had is how is this connected directly with being facist?
You cannot be a communist and a racist? Or a capitalist and a racist?
Why does being a racist automatically assumes you want to have a Fascist state and a fascist community (which I assume would be a true goal of a true fascist).

 

[Marat Sar]

So if I want to play as a hard-line cop, my actions will be consistently marked "fascist"?

If you mislabel a whole line of thought, it will be quite annoying. Labeling something as fascist clearly marks it as undesirable under today's meaning and usage of the word.

As I said a few pages back (http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...review-no-truce-with-the-furies.113988/page-5) you will not be labeled as anything by the game's mechanics unless you agree to it. Let me reiterate -- the only labeling you'll do is when you say things to someone's face and the character labels you (flip a flag, they'll think you're a coward or a feminist or indeed a fascist, and act accordingly). In addition to this, the game has a hidden "copotype" counter. Fascist_cop is one of them. When you've said enough things we think *might* be you telling us your character should become a fascist, an afterthought pops up and your Rhetoric asks you: do yoy think you're a fascist? You then have a little discussion with yourself (represented by your Rhetoric skill). Here you define fascism, and so on. If the outcome of this conversation has you saying "I'd like some fasces, thank you very much!", you receive the thought Revacholian Nationhood. (No likey faces -- no Revacholian Nationhood.) Then -- and only then -- will the game know you want to be a hardline nationalist. having the thought labels you internally (it's making it's way through your Thought Cabinet, evolving). You will start getting some dialogue options other builds don't, or would find out of character even to see as an option. (We consider all dialogue options to be part of the PC-s stream of consciousness / decision making process, so we're careful with what we put there)

So yes, we want the hidden fascist_cop counter to be a hair trigger. IT takes into account, I'm gonna use the word now, trigger warning! MICROAGRESSIONS -- like "what kind of music do *you people* listen to nowadays?" -- is because we don't want to miss the more subtle cues to your blackshirt soul.

In short -- you do the labeling. Unless you say something stupid to someone, and the character in the world does the labeling for you. (Tells all his friends too). Then we can't -- and don't want to -- help you. You slipped and sounded stupid. Happens. But this is a a discrete true/false state in the world and not an internal integer.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts but I think the bigger issues some people had is how is this connected directly with being facist?
You cannot be a communist and a racist? Or a capitalist and a racist?
Why does being a racist automatically assumes you want to have a Fascist state and a fascist community (which I assume would be a true goal of a true fascist).

It doesn't. As of now, we're trying to have fascist and racist as separate integers. The counters sometimes overlap, but the thoughts Revacholian Nationhood and Advanced Race Theory are separate. You can -- and should -- be able to play a communist racist. It will leave a schizophrenic impression at times, as it should. We're not overly concerned with trying to write cross-content where you reference the fact that you're *both*. Those permutations are a low priority writing goal.

 

[Prime Junta]

Communists, or Liberals, or radical feminists can and do harbour fascist thoughts. It's what they make of them that counts however.

Fascism is founded around the idea of Blut und Boden; a big-N Nation, an essential, organic, and indivisible whole, an entity with its own characteristics, its own interests, its own historical destiny. Dividing people into such essential and indivisible nations isn't just incidental to Fascism, it's the foundation-stone upon which the whole edifice is built. So "what kind of music do you people listen to these days" is an inherently fascist thought, even if that thought alone is a long way from making you a Fascist.

(Cf. feminism -- the "equal pay for equal work" thought won't necessarily make you a feminist, but you can't very well be one without it.)

 

[Zombra]

It's obviously racist, but I think the thing is people are thinking that racism isn't fascism. I don't know.

 

[KILLER BEAR]

Fascism is founded around the idea of Blut und Boden;

You are confusing Nazism with Fascism.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm not triggered or anything, but thanks for the WHITE-MAN-SPLAINING anyway, shitlord

Anyway, the part you explained is clear enough to me, I know enough about the mindset of the kind of people who would classify such a generalization as "offensive". Just wanted to point out that we don't yet know what exactly do those ideological stats designate. Or at least I don't know.

 

[Saduj]

If we turned back time and let the lap take place once more under the exact same circumstances (not an atom changed), it would have produced the same outcome.

Not necessarily true but this is also not a great example. If you're trying convince someone to see things your way, there is a degree of luck involved. You might be dealing with someone who is normally very agreeable but you just catch them on bad day or at the wrong time. Human interactions are not an exact science. Your skill alone is far from the only factor. You can be dealing with someone who is just in a bad mood because his asshole neighbors kept him awake all night or he wants to get home to change his shirt because he spilled his coffee or you kind of look like someone who cut him off in traffic that morning, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

It's not weird if "noticing patterns is racism" rubs people the wrong way. It's very recent development of the term and its use. Well, maybe not in academia, but in public use at least.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Yeah but 5% is way too big.

That's because everyone's aping the shitfest that is d20.

That's because of bad DM:ing/GM:ing, when it comes to PnPs. No one should interpret the rules withsuch autistic rigor that would lead to (almost) impossible results, like an Olympic swimmer drowning in a kid's pool. If a routine check is failed, come up with something interesting, or don't require them to make the throw in the first place.

As for cRPG, I don't know how to fix that. Well, crpgs are bad games anyways, should be simplified. Like pressing a button leading to something awesome happening.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Okay, it's good you picked that up and we can continue from here while I guzzle down my coffee. A few days ago an Estonian athlete - one of the top runners in the country - tore a tendon in his leg during a sprint. He's not Bolt, sure, but compared to laymen or even most other atheletes excelling in that field, he is a high-corp character. What is that torn tendon if not a sum of shit luck, the equivalent of a really bad dice roll?

If we turned back time and let the lap take place once more under the exact same circumstances (not an atom changed), it would have produced the same outcome.
Had it been a video game and the runner quick-loaded a savefile he prepared right before the lap started (dirty save-scummer!), the dice would've rolled differently.
One is the result of bad luck, the other of circumstance.

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy

 

[AwesomeButton]

As long as there are no obvious "inoffesive", "correct" options in conversations, I like this system.

 

[Prime Junta]

As long as there are no obvious "inoffesive", "correct" options in conversations, I like this system.

Aren't those the Liberal ones?

(From what I heard of the Liberal vision quest, I definitely want to play LibCop at some point. Is a good quest. Triggering though, if you actually are a Liberal.)

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

I've been pimping this amazing game on all of my other so-called RPG sites. The Codex is the only one that has the brains to pick up on this game's promise. .............. Big props to PJ for this damned fine preview. Am so stoked now for this title

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Game sounds really cool. It might still crash and burn or fail in some unpredictable but important fashion, but it's a breath of fresh air in a genre currently populated by console popamole and by-the-numbers throwbacks.

It's not weird if "noticing patterns is racism" rubs people the wrong way. It's very recent development of the term and its use. Well, maybe not in academia, but in public use at least.

"Noticing patterns" . Bro, if negatively stereotyping a person based on their skin colour is not racism, then what is?

Besides, the point here isn't even so much about the generalization, but rather that the PC sees a black person, and immediately categorizes them as "you people" based on their skin colour. That is also pretty close to fundamentally racist, especially with how the dialogue option is specifically phrased.

 

[Chamezero]

marxist non-games are ok if they have stat/skill checks -RPGCodex

 

[hello friend]

I've been biting my tongue about this but just failed a Will check. I am going to go ahead an EXPLAIN that there fascist thing that's triggering so many of you. Because it's pretty obvious really.

"You're black."

This is pretty innocuous. It's a statement of fact. An observation. Nothing much to shout about there.

"So, what kind of music do you people listen to these days?"

Now, this one has an underlying assumption: that a group of people identified by their skin colour also share a taste in music. I.e., when you're asking this, you're no longer addressing the girl as an individual likely to have her own tastes in music, but as a member of an amorphous mass which all listens to the same kind of music. That assumption right there is ray-cist. Pretty innocuous, but the racism is present, and it suggests that you very likely harbour other assumptions about people with dark skin as well, many of which may not be so innocuous.

For shits and giggles, substitute "white" for "black:"

"You're white."
"Yes."
"So, what kind of music do you people listen to these days?"

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

(N.b.: you can substitute things there which would make the exchange not racist, and which would make sense. A subculture marker, like "surfer," for example.)

Or he's just taking the piss.

This game is starting to look like my first D1P in a long time, can't wait!