Editorial RPG Codex Report: A Codexian Visit to OtherSide Entertainment

[mindx2]

If for example, a normal jump covers X meters and Acrobatics: Trained covers X*1.5, then you don't need numbers to convey that message. You jump and see that now you can reach places you couldn't before. Same goes for combat if the skill determines not your to-hit-chance but the responsiveness of your controls and the visual speed of your attack.

This is direction they are going. This is similar to UU where putting skills points into swimming or jumping made those activities easier or "better". They did try to emphasize that your actions aren't instantanious like an action game but have a built in delay when representing those actions. I wish I could have clarified this part with them. They went out of their way to say player skill won't trump your avatar skills.

 

[Haba]

If the goal is to help players make informed decisions, numbers work best. If the goal is to make a simulation where player's control and skills are more important than those of your character (i.e. it's about timing you jumps or attacks (a-la Gothic)) than the skill levels don't really matter and words would do a better job simulating a character system.

Trying to make informed decisions with limited information can be interesting as well. Like finding a new sword but not really knowing how it performs before you actually try it out. This sort of thing probably works much better in a game like UW where there is more opportunities to provide feedback to the player (i.e. you can directly see how fast the sword swings).

It would be interesting to see a game that takes this approach seriously in design, there are so many different places one could apply it. Like identifying items, for example.

 

[mindx2]

Great interview mindx2 !

there is a slightly confusing typo you may want to correct though: it says Peter Neurath (instead of Paul) in some of the answers, including to the very first question. Or am I at fault and there is a Peter in the team? I checked twice now and there is no mention of a Peter other than Molyneux.

Infinitron ? Can that be fixed?

 

[Infinitron]

Already is.

 

[CyberP]

The more I read about this interview, the more I realize how successful Arx Fatalis was at recreating UU. In the interview they speak about lighting, which Arx Fatalis did perfectly. Open ended gameplay? Check! Learning about the game world through environmental clues? Check! The implementation of the paper doll? Check! And the list goes on. The only major flaw was the magic system, which wasn't true to UU, as they point out in the interview. I think I have to reinstall Arx Fatalis right away.

If Otherside can create anything comparable to Arx Fatalis, I think they have succeeded.

Arx Fatalis was exceptional, and that applies to the magic system also.
The game had its flaws and shortcomings of course but I hold it in high regard. If only it were modifiable...

Deus Ex actually showed you exact numbers for your weapons stats, but it was pretty superfluous. Nice to know, I suppose.

Superfluous? Well, yes, but the deeper understanding of the systems helps you make legitimate choices.
It is strange that the augs and skills conversely showed no stats and was often vague.
"The efficiency with which an agent picks locks increases moderately." You're taking a gamble with this investment, and due to balancing issues the skill wasn't worthy of master investment anyway.

 

[Infinitron]

Modifiable? Its code has been open-sourced, you don't get more modifiable than that.

 

[CyberP]

The whole lot, including native engine code? Because I heard that despite the code being open source, it is no good until someone ports it all to a new engine as a result of a lack of development tools and more. From a new engine it can be modified. I could be wrong though.

 

[tuluse]

The whole lot, including native engine code? Because I heard that despite the code being open source, it is no good until someone ports it all to a new engine as a result of a lack of development tools and more. From a new engine it can be modified. I could be wrong though.

You might want to google Arx Liberatis.

 

[CyberP]

Here, Arx Libertatis is a source port, yet is currently inaccessible for modification (unless you are an insider, of course).
"In the future we plan to improve and modernize the engine as well as enable customizations and mods by the community.".

As an upper-level programmer there is little I could do for Arx until the engineers behind Arx Libertatis finish thier work. But yes, technically it is very modifiable for those with the skills, providing you port it first.

 

[CyberP]

They discussed RPG systems in LG games quite extensively on the stream last night, I just discovered:

 

[Raapys]

I'm surprised they don't name-throw Arx Fatalis more. Though of poor quality in terms of plot and writing, it did almost everything else right. Hope it's not indicative of them not liking it.

 

[Sceptic]

Trying to make informed decisions with limited information can be interesting as well. Like finding a new sword but not really knowing how it performs before you actually try it out.

Yes that's very nice, except it's not what VD is arguig. He's talking about the system being opaque, not the specific abilities of specific items. UW didn't tell you that items were magical until you identified them, and even then you had to experiment with them to figure out exactly what the enchantmend did, but it didn' try to hide from you what your skills and stats meant - you knew skills went from 0 to 30, you knew encumbrance was calculated in stones as 2xstrength, and so on. Hell even MM1 waaaaaaaaaaaaay back didn't tell you an item was cursed until you tried it and found out the hard way, but open the manual and it told you exact numbers for spell damage and SP cost and whatnot. I love discovering what things do in the world and how they work; what I don't love at all is fighting an obtuse and opaque system trying to figure out what stats are supposed to be, and using "good" instead of actual numerical values makes this even worse.

 

[Dorateen]

Speaking of Might & Magic, installments 3 - 5 had numeric stats for ability scores as well as descriptions for the value, which changed as the numbers increased past a threshold. So Might would be labeled Fantastic, Superior, etc. accordingly. The system was even tied into certain riddles.

 

[DeepOcean]

mindx2 made a good interview, I was just not impressed by their answers. The biggest fear I have is this game being mostly an action game with some stats thrown over it with gameplay not much different from any modern Elder Scrolls and the interview didn't make that clear maybe because as they said, they are too early on the design. If that is the case, if this game is like a Dark Messiah of Might and Magic with some emergent features and somethings from Ultima Underworld, I will still enjoy the game as it isn't everyday you get a chance to play a NEW game made by Looking Glass people but I would still be disappointed.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

Not really. Especially when you're dealing with people who apparently have lived in the environment their entire life. You're just trying to force these mechanics in for its own sake. I'd prefer they focus on the basics first.

Just because people live in an environment their entire life, does not mean they are adaptive to that environment. People living in Seattle still get seasonal affective disorder, and depression, which leads to a high rate of suicides. Living Somewhere /= Adapted to said environment.

While they might focus on the core, and I agree a strong vision is a necessity if they are to not homogenize the final product, they are still playing with mechanics, which means introducing them early means a greater chance of them being included in the final game.

Also, I might mention dependence on food is a survival aspect based on physical health--since the brain is part of the body, mental health should deteriorate, same as bodily health, in the absence of proper environmental conditions, hence the "survival sim" aspect of an underworld game.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

And, yes a great interview that cleared many doubts, mindx2.

 

[Metro]

Not really. Especially when you're dealing with people who apparently have lived in the environment their entire life. You're just trying to force these mechanics in for its own sake. I'd prefer they focus on the basics first.

Just because people live in an environment their entire life, does not mean they are adaptive to that environment. People living in Seattle still get seasonal affective disorder, and depression, which leads to a high rate of suicides. Living Somewhere /= Adapted to said environment.

While they might focus on the core, and I agree a strong vision is a necessity if they are to not homogenize the final product, they are still playing with mechanics, which means introducing them early means a greater chance of them being included in the final game.

Also, I might mention dependence on food is a survival aspect based on physical health--since the brain is part of the body, mental health should deteriorate, same as bodily health, in the absence of proper environmental conditions, hence the "survival sim" aspect of an underworld game.

Bottom line: You're overthinking things. Especially in a game with a limited budget.

 

[Turok]

I hope they have luck with this one, but i not sure if if people don't back it because the same reasons i don't like Ultima underworlds games in the 90s.

The first person view, i love iso games and i blame ultima VII for that.

 

[deuxhero]

You didn't ask them about seeing the player's legs in first person!

 

[t]

mindx2 is such a bro

 

[MicoSelva]

Thanks for that, mindx2 !

Backed this for a couple of $ - not enough to get a copy, but I cannot afford to spare $25 right now. I will get the game itself after release.

 

[Jasede]

This thread reminds you why you still come to the Codex.
And then it reminds you of why it's bittersweet and some posters are cantankerous negative Nancies.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I thought the Codex was an anti-hype establishment where good intentions were appreciated but never taken at face value.

 

[Jasede]

It's Looking fucking Glass, a little bit of good cheer won't hurt you in this. It's not that I am hyped - hell naw, look at that budget -

But come ON! It's Looking fucking Glass. This is like shitting on Origin. We practically owe them by default for making games of a quality that has rarely been attained again. Criticizing their "RPG system" is laughable. I mean, that was, like, the weakest part of System Shock 2-- and it was still great. They could have no RPG system and they would have, back in the day, still crafted an amazing game, just look at Terra Nova.

I know we're an RPG site but try, just try, not to see everything through a narrow lens. For now, let's just be happy that the spark's still there and that, seemingly, their heart is in the right place. How often do you get that? Everyone should be happy, except Mondblut, that wouldn't be in character. And they're not making Wizardry 9: The Stattening.

 

[CreamyBlood]

Great interview, mindx, thanks for doing all that work. Nice, thoughtful questions and I liked the 'spirit' of the answers. Sounds like they're on the level and know what they want to do.

I'm into the food thing. It's just another layer of something you have to pay attention to. I like inventory/resource management stuff, others find it tedious. I could live without it but don't mind it.

As for the psychological stuff forced upon your character like afraid of the dark or claustrophobia, it seems like a fluff mechanic. I'm a tough, brave adventurer, we ain't afraid of no dark and cramped corridors. To have my char randomly firing off fireballs or attacking walls doesn't seem too appealing to me, light a torch, take a swig of wine but again, it could be another layer of management that I wouldn't mind.

I understand there's a few recent games (Darkest Dungeon?) that have something like that but I've never seen it in action. I could live without it.

For systems, I (and I suppose many others here) prefer the numbers. Yes, we know what a Clumsy, Retarded, Super-Strong Orc is, so do I upgrade my Intelligence to Stupid? Wait, guess I'd upgrade my Dex to Clutzy first. He's an Orc. Fuck, I don't know. I prefer the numbers. I mean, if it works in the game and makes sense then okay, go with it but I like numbers.

Oh, and as to saving games. Let me save whenever I want to. I have a life and shit to do. Can't stand checkpoints and replaying levels because I had to cook dinner or something. For some reason (probably from unexpected crashes in the old days) I usually end up with over a hundred separate saves in large RPGs but only ever go back to the most recent one because of death or quitting the game for a bit. If people want to save-scum, that's their choice. Just like it's my choice to stop playing when I want to take a break.