Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,232
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hmm, I didn't know established publishers needed "+ arguments" to have access to Steam. Then again, they forced dtp to use Greenlight so who knows how this stuff works.
 

CrashOberbreit

Evil Publisher
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
39
Location
Germany
Well, even we can get denied a release on different distribution platforms if they are not convinced. Usually you go to such a platform-holder and present the game and list the pro-arguments. But if the platform-holder doesn't like it, well, than what can you do?
 

Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,248
I wrote a long ass reply but it got deleted. I'll have to illustrate its content instead:
Chill, bro.

The way I see it, this discussion is mostly about KS. Or the ethics of KS, to be more specific. The game in question serves merely as a specific example illustrating some issues, and nobody is getting worked up over it.
Well there are no ethics when it comes to Kickstarter. They allow people to scam backers, and they have no power after the money is transferred to do anything anyways. They themselves break their own rule against supporting and endorsing other Kickstarters. They get a percentage of every Kickstarter so they are actually complicit in those scams by keeping them up after they are reported. Kickstarter is a joke.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,012
CrashOberbreit can you please answer some question?
This is the second Kickstarter published by bitComposer, is this a strategy of the company?
Do bitComposer have signed other deals with other projects?
If yes, can you name them?
Can you confirm that the implementation of the multi-player in Expeditions:Conquistador is not due to the deal signed with bitComposer?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
This seems a bit dubious to me. I've seen plenty of games that were released "ahead of time" on GOG and other distributors while they wait to be authorized on Steam.
Yep.

It's not like Valve can't afford to be magnanimous.
More like, it's not like Valve cares that much. A game like Skyrim, I'd understand. It's gonna be selling like hotcakes, so why miss on all that excitement. An indie game? I doubt they give a damn especially if the argument that they account for 80-90% sales anyway.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
As said before: It's not needed. But it helps to bring games on such platforms cause it is a + argument.
Is multiplayer a '+ argument'?
Most definitely.

"Steamworks' multiplayer back-end is powered by robust matchmaking and lobby technology. The same technology that drives the quick and accurate match-ups in Left 4 Dead can be used in your game. Works with both peer-to-peer and server-based games. Steamworks' built-in voice functionality enables players to work quickly to strategize their next misson."
 

CrashOberbreit

Evil Publisher
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
39
Location
Germany
CrashOberbreit can you please answer some question?
This is the second Kickstarter published by bitComposer, is this a strategy of the company?
Do bitComposer have signed other deals with other projects?
If yes, can you name them?
Can you confirm that the implementation of the multi-player in Expeditions:Conquistador is not due to the deal signed with bitComposer?

Hey there.
1) For Giana Sisters we just signed on the XBLA-version to help to get it released there. In fact, the marketplace is pretty tough and to get in there. Plus you usually need a slot - and you usually just get slots if you have released a retail product. For some indie-games of course this doesn't matter, but to place a game prominent it's kinda hard.
2) If this is a strategy I can't tell. It differs. People are usually coming to us if they need help and than we can try to figure it out and find a way everyone is happy in the end. I'd say it is an option. I mean, seriously: If I look at the budgets of many KS projects I can already tell you that some have investors already or will need them in the future. So is this a strategy? Not really. But we're open to it. Every studio can ask us for our help or pitch a game no matter at which stage. If it's worth the effort and we believe in the project, well, fine. Let's do it.
3) As of now there's just Expeditions and Giana. This might change in the future. We have been asked by some others and prbly will get asked by others in the future (especially when it comes to Retail-Stuff or special digital distributors I guess). But so far nothing has evolved from these other talks. Who knows what will haben.
4) Can fully confirm that we didn't insist on Multiplayer. This is a distribution-help-deal only. We don't go to LA and say "you have to implement this and that" (besides logos and needed things for some distributors maybe). It's their game. It shall stay their game. Whatever feature they want to have in or not, it's up to them.
 

Mangoose

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
24,716
Location
I'm a Banana
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
the problem is kcikstarter is not really viable if you dont have a brian fargo or sawyer on board , they probably needed a lot more than the 80k, but theres no way they could have honestly asked it and received it .
That's not a problem. That's arrogant plebs trying to bite off more they can chew.

You can't get more than 80k? Then make a smaller product that costs less than 80k. Make money from that. Get noticed from that. Use newly acquired funds and publicity to create a more ambitious game. Rinse. Repeat.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
What kind of game can you make on a 25-50k budget and how are you going to "get noticed from that". If you can make a decent game on 25k it means that you can make it without 25k (i.e. you have a full time job and work on the game part-time and 25k, minus expenses, won't help you switch to full time work and get more people).
 

CrashOberbreit

Evil Publisher
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
39
Location
Germany
What kind of game can you make on a 25-50k budget and how are you going to "get noticed from that". If you can make a decent game on 25k it means that you can make it without 25k (i.e. you have a full time job and work on the game part-time and 25k, minus expenses, won't help you switch to full time work and get more people).
Well, some people can do awesome stuff with so little money. But that'd need to be allround-multi-talents. However you are still right.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
I wrote a long ass reply but it got deleted. I'll have to illustrate its content instead:
Chill, bro.

The way I see it, this discussion is mostly about KS. Or the ethics of KS, to be more specific. The game in question serves merely as a specific example illustrating some issues, and nobody is getting worked up over it.
Well there are no ethics when it comes to Kickstarter. They allow people to scam backers, and they have no power after the money is transferred to do anything anyways. They themselves break their own rule against supporting and endorsing other Kickstarters. They get a percentage of every Kickstarter so they are actually complicit in those scams by keeping them up after they are reported. Kickstarter is a joke.
A place where you get anywhere from 50,000 to 4+ mil is not a joke, but it needs proper rules, accountability, and monitoring.

That's another main issue with KS. It gives money to people without any strings attached and hopes for the best don't really give a fuck after they take their cut. No bank would ever do that without reviewing a business plan first. You can't get 250k (sui generis) by saying "I'm gonna make a game and it's gonna be awesome, you'll see!", which isn't necessary a bad thing.

When the KS model cut the publisher out of equation, they cut not only the middle man but the business mode and didn't replace it with anything.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
the problem is kcikstarter is not really viable if you dont have a brian fargo or sawyer on board , they probably needed a lot more than the 80k, but theres no way they could have honestly asked it and received it .
That's not a problem. That's arrogant plebs trying to bite off more they can chew.

You can't get more than 80k? Then make a smaller product that costs less than 80k. Make money from that. Get noticed from that. Use newly acquired funds and publicity to create a more ambitious game. Rinse. Repeat.

So you want them to slave on iphone and mobile apps, till they get enough money to fund a game catering to your needs ? We wont play a good rpg anytime soon. At least they are making something, it has ben the rpg desert for decades, and it still the case, not so long ago VD was called a demi god for making age of decadence. Now theres a change of attitude on the codex with all the upcoming kickstarters, altough we are still in same situation as before , theres nothing to play yet . you should be a bit nicer with the few developpers posting here , i wont be surprised if they dont post anymore.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
...not so long ago VD was called a demi god for making age of decadence...
I have no recollections of such a wondrous event. I do recall people complaining about the graphics (business as usual), difficulty, and calling it vaporware.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
I don't see any problem with only established stars can raise 1 million+ potato on KS. But I do wish it was easier for relative unknowns to get say, 100-200K. That's enough to keep a frugal team working for a year, and make a small game to build their skills and reputation.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
553
Location
Minsk, Belarus
Well, some people can do awesome stuff with so little money. But that'd need to be allround-multi-talents. However you are still right.
It's hard to do a full featured game in your free time. With little money it's hard too but easier of course. But what people often do realize that if someone is asking 50k at Kickstarter, it doesn't mean that this 50k is all that will be invested into the game. As I said before, we invested much more into our game before coming to KS and asking for 50k. And now we are putting more again. Our original estimates were pretty accurate in terms of art that needed to be done, but we were really bad estimating the length of development, and that's what is the bulk of the budget. We are somewhat lucky that the costs of development are not so high here. I bet it's tougher for both Giana guys and Logic Artists.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
553
Location
Minsk, Belarus
I don't see any problem with only established stars can raise 1 million+ potato on KS. But I do wish it was easier for relative unknowns to get say, 100-200K. That's enough to keep a frugal team working for a year, and make a small game to build their skills and reputation.
Yup, my sentiment exactly! For non-US teams it seems even harder.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
...not so long ago VD was called a demi god for making age of decadence...
I have no recollections of such a wondrous event. I do recall people complaining about the graphics (business as usual), difficulty, and calling it vaporware.
No , its true, i am blessed with an exceptional memory , i ve read some comments like this "VD will achieve codex demigod status with age of decadence" some time ago before the combat demo even , now i cant find you the exact posts, must be somewhere between the complaints, it will take too much time.
 

CrashOberbreit

Evil Publisher
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
39
Location
Germany
I don't see any problem with only established stars can raise 1 million+ potato on KS. But I do wish it was easier for relative unknowns to get say, 100-200K. That's enough to keep a frugal team working for a year, and make a small game to build their skills and reputation.
Well well. Sometimes not so much is needed cause just a special amount of money is needed finalize a game which already has investors (which I see quite often on KS these days. Please note that investors are not necessarily Publishers).

However the real problem with KS is (and this is why Publishers and Investors aren't gone at all) that the "if case" isn't very well settled out. You know, we, as a publisher, can spend more money if more money is needed to finalize a game. And this happens quite often actually in the industry. However this situation isn't covered by KS at all. So if the money runs out, the project is dead. At least if no additional investor or a publisher is found. I don't want to complain about this actually, cause it could bring us - as a company - more products in the future of course. I just say that this is the biggest problem I see with KS for backers (and I actually backed a few things myself. Hopefully these products will get released :D)
 

Mangoose

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
24,716
Location
I'm a Banana
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
So you want them to slave on iphone and mobile apps, till they get enough money to fund a game catering to your needs ?
I wasn't aware that KotC was an iphone or mobile app.

Why are people so uncreative that, if you spend less than X amount of money, it must be an iphone app?

What about working on a PNP system? What about building capital doing a project that has nothing to do with gaming?

Kickstarter is an opportunity, not a limitless gold mine.

VD was called a demi god for making age of decadence.
Did VD ask for 80k? Did he even ask for any money? When AoD ran into problems did they need to run to someone else?

AoD, if anything, completely dismantles your argument.

Legitimately making the game that "caters to our needs" is one thing. Making said game while reneging on agreements and not being clear and honest is another.

you should be a bit nicer with the few developpers posting here
No. Fuck off. Everybody deserves the same amount of respect, no more, no less.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
553
Location
Minsk, Belarus
A place where you get anywhere from 50,000 to 4+ mil is not a joke, but it needs proper rules, accountability, and monitoring.

That's another main issue with KS. It gives money to people without any strings attached and hopes for the best don't really give a fuck after they take their cut. No bank would ever do that without reviewing a business plan first. You can't get 250k (sui generis) by saying "I'm gonna make a game and it's gonna be awesome, you'll see!", which isn't necessary a bad thing.

When the KS model cut the publisher out of equation, they cut not only the middle man but the business mode and didn't replace it with anything.
Let's talk about solutions, not problems. Yes, Kickstarter is not ideal. But what would you do instead? Take money back when projects miss their deadline? Yes, there are some delays and it seems they are almost inevitable in game development (Giana Sisters seems to be the only project so far that came out at a promised date), and there are just a few true failures like Haunts - that's very sorry it happened to them, but Rick is doing what he can and offers refunds which is nice.

If someone comes to us and asks for a refund because of delay or just unhappy about our game, I will do it. If there will be too many of them, I might delay it until we have the money to pay people back, but what the hell. Noone should be unhappy about games they supported and if things don't go against what devs said, it's not a bad thing to ask for a refund.

So, overall I think Kickstarter is a great solution for many indie companies including us. Unfortunately, many companies are startups, including us, and in startups there are often several rounds of financing. So far, we had already 5 rounds:
- My own money
- First investors-friends
- Second investors-friends
- Kickstarter
- New executive producer

5 is a lot and we will stay by that :)
 

Mangoose

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
24,716
Location
I'm a Banana
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
Also, the existing apps for the Iphone do not at all match the potential of what could be. BRB as I go play King of Dragon Pass on my Iphone.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom