Editorial RPG Codex Report: PAX East 2015, or How Chris Avellone Called the Codex Unprofessional

[serch]

Since i am not really good at good timing i will ask you about something from interview which i think heated up more people than supernova.
Can you comment more on TOEE source code ownership ? I think this news heated up ton of people here.

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

If you are trying to calm the Codex, you are doing it wrong

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

Oh Divine Tim of the Holy Troika, thou Holy One! Have mercy on us and save us from decline.

Please tell us, if it were possible would you like to make another Arcanum installment?

 

[Aenra]

i'm not going to tag the man, or annoy him in any way, so Tim.. assuming you get to read this..

Thank you. More than you'd know. You'd need to hear of how i grew up so to understand. Thank you.
I wish you well and happy with all my heart man.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Tim Cain has returned to the Codex ...

The prophecies are true!

 

[Anthony Davis]

Thanks mindx2 for the great interview. And thank you DarkUnderlord for helping me restore my account here. It has been a while.

One of us! One of us! One of us!




You can never leave....

 

[vivec]

According to Sensuki, who cannot be suspected of fanboyism, PoE excels at offering a variety of fun builds. The combat experience may not be to your liking, but the game is definitely not dumbed down in the way that mastroego types tend to care about the most ("cookie cutter feel", characters that all feel the same, etc)

SO PoE now has multiclassing? Great news!

 

[Jaesun]

Any chance of seeing a ToEE-like game in the future?

YES PLEASE!

Seriously Obsidian/Tim DO THIS. PLEASE!

 

[Gary Indiana]

This is the best thread I have ever read anywhere.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I think Cain has had his account long enough to post in GD.

 

[index.php]

There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari)

B-but it's already DRM-free on gog...

http://af.gog.com/game/the_temple_of_elemental_evil?as=1649904300

 

[Azalin]

According to Sensuki, who cannot be suspected of fanboyism, PoE excels at offering a variety of fun builds. The combat experience may not be to your liking, but the game is definitely not dumbed down in the way that mastroego types tend to care about the most ("cookie cutter feel", characters that all feel the same, etc)

 

[garren]

There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari)

B-but it's already DRM-free on gog...

http://af.gog.com/game/the_temple_of_elemental_evil?as=1649904300

Doesn't matter. Atari has some separate deal with GOG to distribute the game DRM-free, it doesn't make Tim's contract null and void.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I'm hoping that Tim Cain has the source code to Bloodlines squirreled away somewhere, but publishers gonna publish. Actually, with Bloodlines I think it is White Wolf who are the big bad - they shut down a fan remake project recently.

 

[Perkel]

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

Thanks !
Bonus question: Does that mean that source code for Arcanum is in same legal state ?

There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari)

B-but it's already DRM-free on gog...

http://af.gog.com/game/the_temple_of_elemental_evil?as=1649904300

Doesn't matter. Atari has some separate deal with GOG to distribute the game DRM-free, it doesn't make Tim's contract null and void.

Yeah. What Atari does has nothing to do with Troika contract. Also GOG lists Hasbro not Atari... Does that mean TOEE as it is D&D game is now in Hasbro hands as all other D&D titles ?

 

[Perkel]

Any chance of seeing a ToEE-like game in the future? What would be pros and cons there, assuming it can be funded via Kickstarter? Can it use the D20 license?

Pros:

- New IP to shuffle with POE = more creativity, less making same game over and over again, New IP also means more fame which directly corresponds to money.

Cons:

- They are mid tier studio possibly doing one AAA game, plus 2 partnerships and POE. So they have limited human budget assuming they will want to strike when it's hot with POE2.


Imo i think Obsidian will do new crowfunding for turn based RPG when they will be near release of their AAA project as AAA project ending means that ton of people will be free to work on something else assuming by then they won't have another contract for big game.

 

[Lurker King]

Codex almost unanimous consensus: Sawyer is using the talk about balance as an excuse to dumb down cRPGs, which is retarded.

I'm not a Randian, but

"Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."

My point is that players that criticize Sawyer for its design philosophy should also criticize Avellone for support the same idea. They don’t do that because all this talk about developers, either from fanboys or haters, is just irrational thinking about celebrities. The haters pictured Sawyer as if he represented decline, hence he must be boring, unimaginative, etc. Avellone fanboys think he represents incline because besides being an awesome writer, he is such a sweet and accessible guy. Thus, he must be always right, even when he agrees with Sawyer – “you know, he just said that because he is being polite and all”. The fact is that even these celebrities, who made great games and deserve our deepest respect and admiration, are just people. They are very bright, but they all have flaws.

 

[Cosmo]

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

Would there be the slightest possibility for you to do something à la Shadowrun Returns : by that i mean a game using D&D open licence rules (or a PoE turn-based variant), featuring a medium-lenght scenario and a strong campaign builder ?
As you say, nature of the code makes it releasable on multiple platforms, and you could reuse graphical assets of past Obsidian games (does the company still have NWN 2 models for example ?).
Anyway, let me tell you you lighted a damn fire saying you still had ToEE's code, and i'd hate it to go to waste.

Or you could simply give us better tools to mod ToEE and Arcanum (awesome games, but god knows they could use it).

 

[Lurker King]

Sawyer's system might not be realistic (might affecting gun damage hurr durr), but it is not dumbed down compared to D&D (except magic memorization). It only plays differently, and that is what people can't accept.

As much as I didn't like Sawyer's approach for the first time, it will be interesting to me to play different type of fighters, mages etc, just by building them differently. And sorry, but you couldn't do that in BG-1-2 and IWD (you could do it for an extent in IWD2 thanks to D&D3.5)

Maybe you are right, Matt. I didn’t play the game yet. I just read the threads about POE. I guess that the mere hint of a suggestion that every character combination should be viable sounds like popamole thinking, thus triggering some irrational fears. I should think more before posting nonsense on the internet.

 

[Prime Junta]

If one wants to make "all weapons equally viable", the essence of the Sawyer solution would basically be to make them all work the same.
You change the icon from Broadsword to Nunchaku, and there you are! Problem solved.
In 1/20 of the code too!
Problem is, the player who won't be fooled by the icon [ ] will see no reason to switch from Broadsword to Nunchaku.

Stop making shit up. Can't you find actual things Sawyer did to woof about? Even I could if I wanted to, and I like at least 80% of his decisions in P:E mechanics.

Weapons in P:E play very differently. Guns are extremely punchy but load extremely slowly: great for an opening volley, useless afterward (gimmick builds notwithstanding), whereas bows can maintain a constant rate of damage over an encounter but are much slower at taking down an individual target. Maces are not like morning stars which are not like stilettos, all of which are viable and powerful weapons.

 

[Lurker King]

The proper alternative is what games like AoD do. They create a world where diametrically opposite builds have simply diametrically opposite paths in the game. This is probably why AoD type gameplay will never be parallelled by other games.

So true.

 

[crakkie]

There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari)

B-but it's already DRM-free on gog...

http://af.gog.com/game/the_temple_of_elemental_evil?as=1649904300

Didn't Drog find out that they used a scene crack to make Arcanum "DRM-free" for GOG? The crackers' logo was embedded in the exe, viewable in a hex editor?

Not that this would legally change anything it the contract. It just makes it more ludicrous.

 

[Amasius]

Hey, Amasius! Do you still think that the Codex is just an obscure website?

Sure. But nice that some of my favorite obscure devs post here. If only Leonard would see the light again... (Boyarsky-fanboy here)

Spoiler

Thanks mindx2 for the great interview. And thank you DarkUnderlord for helping me restore my account here. It has been a while.

There is still something wrong with your sig though...

 

[undecaf]

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

Did this use the code:



Please do revive if ever possible... Turnbased this.

 

[General Maxson]

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

Oh Divine Tim of the Holy Troika, thou Holy One! Have mercy on us and save us from decline.

Please tell us, if it were possible would you like to make another Arcanum installment?

This...

I want to say, Sir, that you will always be cherished in my heart, as I have never played games that I liked more than Fallout 1 and especially Arcanum! I have a faint glimmer of hope that Arcanum 2 (or at least a spiritual successor) will see the light of day with You at the helm. Or any other game you have in mind.

 

[mindx2]

I was just looking at all my PAX East photos and forgot about these two which didn't fit into my article but does show I went through heaven and hell just to bring the Codex the best content on the webz...