Editorial RPG Codex Report: PAX East 2015, or How Chris Avellone Called the Codex Unprofessional

[Viata]

50 shades of VN?

 

[mastroego]

If one wants to make "all weapons equally viable", the essence of the Sawyer solution would basically be to make them all work the same.
You change the icon from Broadsword to Nunchaku, and there you are! Problem solved.
In 1/20 of the code too!
Problem is, the player who won't be fooled by the icon [ ] will see no reason to switch from Broadsword to Nunchaku.

Stop making shit up. Can't you find actual things Sawyer did to woof about? Even I could if I wanted to, and I like at least 80% of his decisions in P:E mechanics.

Weapons in P:E play very differently. Guns are extremely punchy but load extremely slowly: great for an opening volley, useless afterward (gimmick builds notwithstanding), whereas bows can maintain a constant rate of damage over an encounter but are much slower at taking down an individual target. Maces are not like morning stars which are not like stilettos, all of which are viable and powerful weapons.

I haven't played the beta.
I've read several interviews and manifestos of Sawyer, and that is the clear image of the game he was aiming for. And I read several of his comments where he was trying to argue about why I "shouldn't" have had as much fun as I happened to have with the true classics of the past (the sort of which he will never even come close to create).

Now you tell me he sold it wrong?
Well, then he was not the right guy to sell it.
Or are you telling me that he doesn't operate in a vacuum, and that the other team members and testers feedback managed to push him into some design improvements?
Well, then I'm happy for all of you PoE backers. Doesn't change my point.

 

[Drax]

That was a great article, mindx2. I really liked the fact that you got to report on both the small and the godly RPG developers.
BTW, my completely heterosexual love for MCA keeps growing at an alarming rate...

I've wanted to know the anwser to that for a long time (Arcanum is on the same engine too apparently).
How do we bug him to release it? I highly doubt its usable for a modern game.
That's not even needed. Just bugfixing alone, let alone modding, demands the release of the source code.

THIS HAS TO HAPPEN.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Great thread, but all this talk about ToEE and its code just makes me think about Troika being gone and...



Still though... a Kickstarter for a turn-based ToEE revival, based on... some non-shitty edition of D&D?

 

[Morality Games]

Thanks mindx2 for the great interview. And thank you DarkUnderlord for helping me restore my account here. It has been a while.

Muad'dib has returned to us.

 

[Gondolin]

The prophecies are true!

Do they speak of a bearded man carrying the Weirding Source Code?

 

[Michael Ellis]

Thank you mindx2.
An enjoyable read.

 

[Sensuki]

I haven't played the beta.
I've read several interviews and manifestos of Sawyer, and that is the clear image of the game he was aiming for. And I read several of his comments where he was trying to argue about why I "shouldn't" have had as much fun as I happened to have with the true classics of the past (the sort of which he will never even come close to create).

Now you tell me he sold it wrong?
Well, then he was not the right guy to sell it.
Or are you telling me that he doesn't operate in a vacuum, and that the other team members and testers feedback managed to push him into some design improvements?
Well, then I'm happy for all of you PoE backers. Doesn't change my point.

Ignore what he says about grogs or how you should have fun. Funnily enough - one of his favourite games is Ars Magicka which is really simulationist/groggy.

One of the things this game does well is allow for many character concepts and builds to work. It's not perfect (attributes, abilities, talents, spells, systems and items all need more tuning/tweaking), but you can create quite a few different viable builds for many of the classes. Some will play more similar due to the nature of the classes themselves but there is a lot of choice and it is fun coming up with cool gimmick builds.

One of my favourite builds in the game at the moment is a High Intellect Fighter. Intellect gives you bonus duration to your abilities and bonus AoE size. The best combination I've found for Fighters is Max Intellect, picking Disciplined Barrage and Knockdown (both level 1 abilities) and then picking the Bonus Knockdown Talent, giving you three Knockdowns per encounter. Instead of tanking you act as a roving striker, not going in first and then activating Disciplined Barrage as you get near the fray for +10 Accuracy for 10 seconds + your Intellect bonus to duration. You can then accurately Knock Down three different targets and your Knock Down will knock them prone for longer due to your high intellect meaning you have just disabled three units for a decent amount of time. You can use this with a one handed weapon if you really really need to accurately knock them prone, or you can use a two-handed for a big hit combined with Knock Down.

There are also many other ways you can build the Fighter - you can make a tank with a shield and Cautious Attack (like of like Weapon Expertise). You can make a dual wielder with high Might and Dex, Two Weapon Style and Vulnerable Attack for pretty good DPS with two weapons. You can do a king-hitting 2Her build. You can even do passive ranged as well (although it's not as good as some of the other classes).

There's plenty more of gimmicky well-thought out stuff you can come up with on top of that as well.

Over time, through more critiquing of their systems - they will improve all of this. Sawyer said he'd like to change lots of stuff, but it's just not feasible with not long to go before release. Hopefully the post-release support continues for a while like NWN2.

The combat isn't very tactical, it's more of an exercise in encounter and build strategy than anything, but it's a solid foundation to build upon for the future. Hopefully they listen to critiques and make it more tactical as it goes along.

What's more - we have a very nice solid UI available in four layouts for 720, 1080p and 1440p ready to go for when the IE mod is ported to the release version

 

[Musaab]

Just wanted to say excellent article to mindx2. Thanks for doing it.

 

[hiver]

OT: What I liked especially about Div:OS was not so much the environmental stuff (which I thought was a little over-used and which I would have tweaked in some aspects) but how it handled Action Points. Initial AP, AP regen, AP stacking...all really cool ideas that were implemented well.

Correct. After years and years of listening how "nothing can be done about APs" someone just went and did it and it works wonders. TB evolved.

Besides, the environmental effects in OS are fine and great but there isnt that many combinations of them and the "Ice" is barely existent in the game. Yes i suggested improving that "element" but there was no more time and a lot of other things to improve.

Re. Sawyer on Might and its universal effect:
There's is a subjective response: I have been playing these types of games for decades. I prefer them to make sense and be at least semi-realistic. The "A noob might get blind-sided and have to restart his char after 30 minutes into the game because he didn't realize str wouldn't affect crossbows." Simply doesn't fly with me. I also think that the vast majority of PE players will also not be playing their first RPG. So this seems like a large concession to a small minority who wouldn't be severely discomfited in the first place.

True. And when you consider its a project directly backed by players who are familiar with cRPGs of that kind its even stranger to pander to some other group of players.
All three cRPG kickstarter projects ive followed more closely show this same dichotomy. Get backed by a specific audience for specific purpose - but introduce various mass market design decisions into the game in order to increase sales later on.

Josh:

Yeah, if you build an 18 Resolve fighter in PoE that’s a very defensively oriented character that won’t get interrupted very much. Is that the same as an 18 Might character? No, but it’s not about perfect balance, it’s about relative balance and finding a way to play to that character's strengths. So it’s never been about absolute perfect balance.

Again several issues:
1. Either the communication of the balance issue was very bad for a long time or he's flip-flopping mightily.

No, he was saying the same since the beginning. It was only a huge knee jerking reaction from less intelligent posters who kept pushing that into something ludicrous - about which they complained ceaselessly.

2. So in D&D the game will outright tell you: "If you max cha on your fighter and dump all your physical stats, you'll be bad. Choose a different class or build your char differently.". And Sawyer substitutes this with: "Sure, go ahead and max resolve. Everything is balanced and viable. You'll be noticeably weaker than if you'd maxed might, but it's viable.". And this is supposed to be better?

Is that correct? Or is that a gross simplification?
How would you be "weaker"? In what sense? Youd do less damage because lower Might but you would have beneficial effect of very high Resolve as a substitute, right?
And... as far as i understand the attributes in PoE dont have that big of a role anyway. All negatives or positives are relatively small and can be covered up or substituted through skills and equipment.

3.a. Class system: You play a class, in RL terms it'd be a role or job. Eg Boxer like Mike Tyson or Physicist like Steven Hawking. As a boxer you'll need str, dex and con. Other stats will surely not be bad, but they're not required. Tyson definitely did not need to release Papers on Hawking's level to be a successful boxer. And if he'd had huge cha instead of physical stats, he'd become an actor or singer or something. On the other hand Hawking might not mind if he had a healthy body, but it's not required for him being a successful physicist. When you choose a class you also determine your role. To a certain degree your stats should fit that role.

Very bad analogy. Tyson actually critically needed knowledge about boxing to be able to successfully use his phsysical advanatges. He was not just strong and fast but had great technique and precision - coupled with knowledge about how to hit and where to hit.

And sir Hawking indeed does need his body to function properly in order to be able to think. Just like anyone else. What that man does everyday is nothing short of a epic heroic feet or a miracle.



***


In general, whats sense is there to talk about balances and being able or not to play some specific build - while considering only the mechanics of the builds and their stats?

What you really need to allow all these diverse builds to function is the game world that allows it and supports all those builds with gameplay through which they can function. Not the fucking stats and mechanics of builds.
And thats what cRPG games cannot do. Nor PnP games run by bad GMs who cannot provide it.
What possible purpose someone with high Int or Charisma may have in a game that is only about fighting?

Its all upside down thinking really. And then you have people doing it the wrong way by trying to achieve that flexibility by convoluted mechanics and stats.

Who cares? That's not what made the Infinity Engine games great. People weren't wandering around the Sword Coast or Athkatla going OMG MY STRENGTH MAKES ME DO MORE PHYSICAL DAMAGE BUT NOT RANGED DAMAGE THIS IS SO AWESOME.

Yes, different types of attacks being governed by different mechanics & stats is awesome comparatively speaking, it makes them different/unqiue in more ways than just the amount of damage and range.

Of course people didnt do that. There was no need because nothing there was unnatural, so there was nothing to complain about.

The same as there wouldnt be if ranged damage in PoE was governed by Int and Perception. Its just natural and instinctively understandable.
I will bet you that there will be a lot of casual players who will boost Int and Per and then complain why their ranged damage with spells and other ranged weapons is lacking.

 

[J_C]

What's more - we have a very nice solid UI available in four layouts for 720, 1080p and 1440p ready to go for when the IE mod is ported to the release version

Wait, and what about 1680x1050 resolution?

 

[Sensuki]

We don't have a frame for that at the moment. I can put in a request for one though.

 

[hiver]

The Arcanum source code was used to make ToEE, and Troika retained ownership of both code bases. There are some contractual obligations that prevent me from releasing it (since having ToEE source code would allow anyone to compile a ToEE executable that had no DRM, which is a violation of Troika's contract with Atari). However, I am free to use that source code in any other way I please, including using it in full or in part in future games. Plus, that code used an OS abstraction library (meaning calls to any OS function like input, memory, graphics, etc went through the library), making the code fairly easy to port to other platforms.

THE CODE IS FREE!!!

Did this use the code:



Please do revive if ever possible... Turnbased this.

That was my previous and very next question and suggestion.

No ToEE2, no fucking DnD, or fantasy, especially of the epic high fantasy kind, ... we have too much of that currently already. Why not instead do something completely new? Better, improved, evolved.
Why not resurrect this beautiful thing instead?

I doubt any publisher has any leverage over it since there was barely anything to it and even if so it would be easy to change sufficiently.
Now, unlike back in those days, this could and should be done without any first person PoV, without and real time combat... it could be just TB and Cavalier Oblique perspective, as it should.

And it could take back our lost Post Apocalyptic setting from unworthy, unclean and incompetent.

Whats even better, it can set itself apart from where Fallout setting went, becoming less and less post apocalyptic as it did and return us to full, strange, weird and unknown kind of core post apocalypse experience that is what all of us loved about Fallout games.
Only done in a completely New Brave world.


-
so, sir TimCain whats the situation with this lost beautiful thing?
Couldnt you, youu know... start doing something in your free time in Obsidian, on a side as it were, while the CEOs run around trying to get another slam dunk?
Maybe get some of the old crew back too...?

 

[you know what time it is]

Great article. Fisted Tim Cain. It was a good day.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I can't help but see the object on his hand as a taser, ready to strike at the smallest sudden movement. He knows how much a lock of his hair would sell for here.

 

[Pyke]

I giggled when I saw my name.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Excellent article and a true joy to read,hats off to you good sir!

P.S.

if only i was good at editing these pics

 

[Ladonna]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

I have to believe it is the former, surely. After reading the Rock,paper,shotgun interview with Pete Molyneux, while I agree with the reasons behind the interviewer asking the questions he did, I don't see how this place is any harsher. Perhaps being harsh is cool now, or perhaps Molyneux is seen as a weak target to kick around (while other, higher personages get away with lies galore).

Bearing this in mind, and also the fact that the gentlemen involved in this report are not known as fable spinners, the mind boggles as to why they have been afraid of this place in the past (Anthony excluded of course).

 

[ERYFKRAD]

the mind boggles as to why they have been afraid of this place in the past (Anthony excluded of course).

Maybe they heard of GD.

 

[mindx2]

I giggled when I saw my name.

I did my best to get them to work with you! Your art with TimCain's code and Avellone's writing equals my dream game...


I thought it was cool they took inspiration from your work.

 

[Tigranes]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

I have to believe it is the former, surely. After reading the Rock,paper,shotgun interview with Pete Molyneux, while I agree with the reasons behind the interviewer asking the questions he did, I don't see how this place is any harsher. Perhaps being harsh is cool now, or perhaps Molyneux is seen as a weak target to kick around (while other, higher personages get away with lies galore).

Bearing this in mind, and also the fact that the gentlemen involved in this report are not known as fable spinners, the mind boggles as to why they have been afraid of this place in the past (Anthony excluded of course).

Because when they post they tend to get swamped in random 'omg u so fat / gay / etc' spam, stalky interrogations by virtue of them / their company / their tenuous association with Chris Avellone, annoying interrogations by whoever is on a crusade against their latest game, etc. If they read, they can just ignore that shit and read the good stuff.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Bearing this in mind, and also the fact that the gentlemen involved in this report are not known as fable spinners, the mind boggles as to why they have been afraid of this place in the past (Anthony excluded of course).

Can't imagine Josh wanting to get involved in the shitstorm in the PoE threads tbh and they're obviously pretty busy most of the time. But in general I can understand devs avoiding a public presence on the Codex (who knows how many anonymous alts there are though). It's one thing for a small indie to post here, but given the nature of this site and the political correctness issues faced by just about every part of the industry... do they want it widely known that they routinely post in threads packed with 'swastikas', 'kfc' and' jewgoldz'? I mean, we're used to all this stuff and the lack of moderation but I can imagine if they were working on something for a publisher the pr types would have a fit. It's sometimes easy to forget how different this place is to other game forums.

It'll be great if we get a few interesting posts from them, like the posts from Tim on the TOEE source code, but my mind probably won't boggle if their presence is rather limited.

 

[hiver]

Very good read.
However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?
-
Bearing this in mind, and also the fact that the gentlemen involved in this report are not known as fable spinners, the mind boggles as to why they have been afraid of this place in the past (Anthony excluded of course).

There is no fear, dont flatter yourself, just disgust and the futility of talking to imbeciles driven by their idiotic overblown egoes.

Codex is a place that gets its sense of being special due to rare individuals, while the rest like you, are a mass of completely stupid, ignorant schadenfreude slurpers.
The PoE thread is one of the bigger screaming examples of this.
And i could mention a few more.


mindx2

That’s when he said, “Ah, I didn’t think the Codex was that professional… Oh shit, did I just call the Codex unprofessional?! That won’t be included will it?”. I lied and assured him that they would never know, and began the interview proper,

I liked this very much. Thats some true gonzo journalism right there.
For the next time i suggest some mescalin and ether combination.

 

[Pyke]

I giggled when I saw my name.

I did my best to get them to work with you! Your art with TimCain's code and Avellone's writing equals my dream game...


I thought it was cool they took inspiration from your work.

I met Chris Avellone at GDC. Probably one of the highlights of the trip for me!

Its completely surreal to think that anything I have done could have influenced their work. Bad ass...but surreal!

 

[Jasede]

Why does MCA look so fabulous