Editorial RPG Codex Report: PAX East 2015, or How Chris Avellone Called the Codex Unprofessional

[deuxhero]

Tim: I own the ToEE code

I've wanted to know the anwser to that for a long time (Arcanum is on the same engine too apparently).

How do we bug him to release it? I highly doubt its usable for a modern game.

Am i the only one who spat his Mountain Dew when Tim Cain said he owned the fucking ToEE code ?!
FFS we need a kickstarter or a fundraiser to recreate assets and expand on it ! Don't you think we could use a turn-based Neverwinter Nights, supporting fan-made modules and all ?
And may i remind you all that ToEE's code was based on Arcanum's ?

That's not even needed. Just bugfixing alone, let alone modding, demands the release of the source code.

 

[mastroego]

I don't believe you.

You overestimate my free time.
I have plenty of other games, books to read (actually I have a tragic backlog there) and stuff to do.
It takes something good to climb up those lists, that means I won't touch this thing Sawyer is doing.
But it could have been different.
Anyway, if you don't believe me, well, that's gonna hurt a lot!

Sorry that professional game designers aren't as big into LARPing as you are.

What other professional game designers are you talking about?
I like a whole lot of them. I have a "problem" with Sawyer and the retard stuff he says.
And I'm no larper, thanks, and I happen to play other kinds of games like 4x, the occasional click and point adventure, and all.
I just ask for a BARE MINIMUM of common sense, logic and consistency no matter the kind of game I play.

I don't see why you have to act like you don't understand this simple, straightforward point in your ROBOTIC, a priori defense of your beloved Sawyer.

 

[J_C]

Hope his game crashes and burns.

Fuck you! I don't like the reasoning myself, but this doesn't make the game bad. This game must be successful so we can have more (even maybe TB ones) from Obsidian.

Huge to mindx2 . You are the broest of bros here. I enjoyed your report very much.

 

[Stinger]

Jealous?

 

[Ismaul]

It's ok man. You can be in his arms too. At least we got Photoshop, right?

 

[Stinger]

It's ok man. You can be in his arms too. At least we got Photoshop, right?

It doesn't quite feel the same

 

[hiver]

Tim: I own the ToEE code

I've wanted to know the anwser to that for a long time (Arcanum is on the same engine too apparently).

How do we bug him to release it? I highly doubt its usable for a modern game.

Am i the only one who spat his Mountain Dew when Tim Cain said he owned the fucking ToEE code ?!
FFS we need a kickstarter or a fundraiser to recreate assets and expand on it ! Don't you think we could use a turn-based Neverwinter Nights, supporting fan-made modules and all ?
And may i remind you all that ToEE's code was based on Arcanum's ?

That's not even needed. Just bugfixing alone, let alone modding, demands the release of the source code.

It should be used for something new and better then anything before.

Am i the only one who spat his Mountain Dew when Tim Cain said he owned the fucking ToEE code ?!

Multivitamin juice.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

No, it's a character to have fun with in a Single Player Game.
A game where stats still behave in a way that makes sense (if not always in an impactful way) and doesn't break logic AND immersion.
I did play with a high cha Figther and had lots of fun.

No offense bro but this does cross into larping territory. Stats don't have to (and shouldn't IMO) be of equal importance to all classes but they have to have some noticeable impact otherwise there's almost no in-game difference between different characters. Of course this could have been done much more elegantly (and in a logical manner) than every stat has some arbitrary function in combat and acts completely different when it comes to stat checks (my biceps help me push that huge rock out of the way but they also make my bullets do more damage because banalce and souls) but it could have definitely used some improvement nonetheless.

Who cares? That's not what made the Infinity Engine games great. People weren't wandering around the Sword Coast or Athkatla going OMG MY STRENGTH MAKES ME DO MORE PHYSICAL DAMAGE BUT NOT RANGED DAMAGE THIS IS SO AWESOME.

Yes, different types of attacks being governed by different mechanics & stats is awesome comparatively speaking, it makes them different/unqiue in more ways than just the amount of damage and range.

Take a look at Sensuki's criticisms of PoE. There's a man who knows what actually mattered in the Infinity Engine games - moment-to-moment combat feel and the abilities that you actually use. He doesn't waste his time whining about stats that you only look at in character creation and then never touch again for 100 hours of gameplay, or about when you get experience points and other irrelevant bullshit.

It's that why Sensuki and that other guy from OE forums wrote a dissertation on how to improve PoE stats or something (that said, yes, his criticism wasn't focused on realism/simulation/intuitiveness)? I disagree that just because they weren't a huge part of the game stats didn't matter in IE as sometimes some small bits and pieces can serve to enhance an overall experience quite a bit, not everyone takes your robotic approach to evaluating a game's worth by the way of analyzing its list of features without a care whatsoever for in-game universe/setting consistency.

 

[Tramboi]

What's funny is that I told Crooked Bee that this past month visiting OtherSide and then all that happened at PAX has been amazing. I always thought my association with the Codex all these years would end up being a bad thing......

It has not ended yet.
Wait for your concrete shoes.

 

[Athelas]

D&D did it first:
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_Insight
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Zen_Archery

 

[ZagorTeNej]

D&D did it first:
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_Insight
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Zen_Archery

That's character customization, do you understand the difference? I have a problem with a general set of rules in that regard, not for offering options to player (via talents/feats/skills etc.) to customize his character to be different from the norm. It may be a negligable difference to some but to me it's a lot more interesting than having a general "damage" stat.

 

[Shannow]

mindx2

Great read. Thx.
Especially for bringing up so many of my questions Though I do have one criticism: OE + Paizo = TB Pathfinder game ??? Or in general, if the Paizo connection will lead to more than card games.

Good to know that we TB-fags at least have a lobbyist in form of Sir Tim Cain. I still doubt that OE will ever release a TB-game of the type I (we) would like to see. (And no, South Park still doesn't count.)

After having given it a rest for the last few weeks I'm ready to go once more into the breach and discuss Sawyer's opinions. Especially since I have it given to me from the horse's mouth for once (instead of Tron's or Roguey's quoting-out-of-context and quote-tampering.)
But I can't get to it right away, so Tron and Athelas have some time to prepare their appologism.

 

[mindx2]

Sorry, I tried to fit in as many questions as I could in the half hour I had. I could have talked for hours if they would have let me! Next time maybe they'll let me buy them a drink and we can talk longer...

 

[Athelas]

D&D did it first:
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_Insight
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Zen_Archery

That's character customization, do you understand the difference? I have a problem with a general set of rules in that regard, not for offering options to player (via talents/feats/skills etc.) to customize his character to be different from the norm. It may be a negligable difference to some but to me it's a lot more interesting than having a general "damage" stat.

And feats aren't part of the rules? If you've leveled up a few times, you will certainly have spend more time deciding between feats than you ever had on attributes. My point was that the people working on D&D recognized the need for build variety, even at the expense of 'realism'.

I disagree that just because they weren't a huge part of the game stats didn't matter in IE as sometimes some small bits and pieces can serve to enhance an overall experience quite a bit, not everyone takes your robotic approach to evaluating a game's worth by the way of analyzing its list of features without a care whatsoever for in-game universe/setting consistency.

You're talking about a game that doesn't exist (a Baldur's Gate with reactivity to stats).

 

[ZagorTeNej]

And feats aren't part of the rules? If you've leveled up a few times, you will certainly have spend more time deciding between feats than you ever had on attributes. My point was that the people working on D&D recognized the need for build variety, even at the expense of 'realism'.

My criticism in this case wasn't about realism but that I find every attack being governed by the exact same mechanics boring. Feats are a way of further customizing your character so that he feels more unique in the world, one damage stat for all and magic spells having accuracy is the exact opposite of variety. Choosing via feats (and therefore interacting with the system) whether I want my attacks to be governed by wisdom, intelligence or whatever is a lot more enjoyable than pump the damage stat if you want to do damage.

Not my fault if you can't see the difference.

You're talking about a game that doesn't exist (a Baldur's Gate with reactivity to stats).

No, I'm saying that BG attribute system even with all its flaws still added to the overall experience for me, it would have been a worse game without it (again, for me).

 

[mastroego]

Fuck you! I don't like the reasoning myself, but this doesn't make the game bad. This game must be successful so we can have more (even maybe TB ones) from Obsidian.

That's rude.
I see it as a "necessary" evil.
The rot must be removed before it spreads, then the really talented team members will be free to work with better lead designers.
Anyway, I don't expect it to tank.

mastroego said:
Who cares? That's not what made the Infinity Engine games great. People weren't wandering around the Sword Coast or Athkatla going OMG MY STRENGTH MAKES ME DO MORE PHYSICAL DAMAGE BUT NOT RANGED DAMAGE THIS IS SO AWESOME.

You misquoted me.

 

[norolim]

Oh man, that was a great read. Codex should pay you for that, mindx2 because you actually bring value to this prestigious magazine.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

mastroego sorry, fixed it.

 

[Perkel]

It is good to know that Obsidian still has soul and their papermodels deep inside scream to do proper turn based game.

Let's hope their next kickstarter will be turn based game.

 

[Athelas]

And feats aren't part of the rules? If you've leveled up a few times, you will certainly have spend more time deciding between feats than you ever had on attributes. My point was that the people working on D&D recognized the need for build variety, even at the expense of 'realism'.

My criticism in this case wasn't about realism but that I find every attack being governed by the exact same mechanics boring. Feats are a way of further customizing your character so that he feels more unique in the world, one damage stat for all and magic spells having accuracy is the exact opposite of variety. Choosing via feats (and therefore interacting with the system) whether I want my attacks to be governed by wisdom, intelligence or whatever is a lot more enjoyable than pump the damage stat if you want to do damage.

Not my fault if you can't see the difference.

Of course they affect different things, but that doesn't mean it's any better. The Fallout/Wasteland games with their numerous weapon skills have notably worse combat than Jagged Alliance 2 with a single 'Marksman' skill.

You're overlooking the fact that every attribute is useful in PoE, so if you pump the damage stat, your character will be hindered in some other aspect. In the AD&D-based RPG's you can easily pick the optimal attribute spread for your class since you typically only need 3 of the 6 stats. Not my idea of complexity.

You're talking about a game that doesn't exist (a Baldur's Gate with reactivity to stats).

No, I'm saying that BG attribute system even with all its flaws still added to the overall experience for me, it would have been a worse game without it (again, for me).

The total lack of reactivity to stats isn't my idea of 'in-game universe/setting consistency'.

 

[torpid]

Josh: And anyone who sees me on Steam knows I still play Hitman: Blood Money all the time.

Oh man I am now a huge Josh Sawyer fan. I wonder if he's tried getting the "Silent Assassin" rating on every level without using disguises (doable for all but one level).

 

[DwarvenFood]

Great job mindx2 , .. I must say by seeing this photo:

I somehow instantly thought of

 

[Bavarian]

And here I thought Chris was going to say Mount and Blade or Sunless Sea, no.... El Diablo 3. I should nt judge so much after all I did get my crusader to level 100 paragon and I still have no idea how I got there, its all a blur, kinda like meditating while playing slot machines.

That may be the best description of playing D3 I've ever read.

 

[Jasede]

What's this, fraternizing with developers? But what about professionalism in game journalism?

What is this? Chris-senpai! No! mindx2, you can never have him! Rargh!


That cripple is talking to senpai...

 

[mindx2]

I asked Chris to be as provocative as he felt comfortable to do and told him my wife knew I'd be asking for that picture! She loves the picture by the way.