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RPG's that can be deep enough like books and movies.

NotAGolfer

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They can't be. Simple as that. THEY CAN'T BE.
Or maybe they can but then gameplay suffers too much so they automatically become shit games.
And no, PS:T is not a counter example. The story there was pretty good for a game, not so much if it would have been a book.

Any game will suffer from the fact that it has to constantly keep pulling the player away from the narrative so he can focus on the thing that's actually important, the moment to moment gameplay.
Books don't have that, the good ones are called page turners for a reason. You don't want to be distracted from the narrative, you don't even want to eat or take a shit.

about 2 deep 4 u books and movies or biographies and non-belletristic literature:
Sure, games can be educational too, why not.
But they usually aren't. Cause writers in gaming are usually way too illiterate and stupid to be able to teach you anything meaningful.
And the ones that aren't are boring autists so you don't want them to add their ponderings about history to their games either.
:littlemissfun:
 
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Leitz

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VIDEO GAME has to understand that its a unique experience, when it wants to be a unique experience. VIDEO GAME should'nt copy movies and books. DOOM shows the way.
 

fantadomat

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Video games are a medium just like movies and books so of course there is nothing inherently in them that would stop them from offering meaningful content.

I do have trouble however, coming up with moments, let alone whole games, who really made me stop and think, really engaged me intellectually or emotionally, or of which I could say that they shaped me as a real human bean in any meaningful way.

Considering the incredible possibilities of the medium - e.g. the engagement of the recipient, who in fact becomes a participant and agent - the medium has been pretty inept so far to offer a lot of really meaningful content. I wonder why that is.
Well games and move can't really impact people because over saturation. Music in my opinion have the greatest impact on to people. In games the interactivity is making it hard to tell deep story. The greatest story that i recall in video game is the red baron in the Witcher 3. It was written very humanly if that makes any sense.
 
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Maybe not many books, movies and games are deep because life itself is not very deep? There are many things that are a part of human experience, but most of them are known to everyone either through experience or others (friends or any medium). So each subject that any particular piece of art want to tackle by definition is not deep and only a few authors who can look at mundane things from different perspective can be considered deep?
 

Atlet

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They can't be. Simple as that. THEY CAN'T BE.

Yes, my question is very silly. Obv good books and movies are deeper than any good games. In future, who knows, we can have better games. But why I would play Torment/Fallout/BG, if I have the possibility to read Dostoievski, Tolstoy, Hugo, Flaubert... or watch a Bergman, Coppola, Kubrick movie? Of course we have the interactivity, but, meh. Games are a waste of time if I think in this way.

But the media have future.
 
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Atlet

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i don't see any obstacle preventing a video game writer from making characters on the level of the ones in a Charles Dickens novel or a Dostoevsky novel or, hell, lowering the bar a little at least on the level of a D.H. Lawrence or Edith Warton novel.

i think it has more to do with the fact that even among the mediums of lit and film those above examples are the exception to the rule and "learning life lessons" or whatever shit from a novel or from watching a film is something that happens rarely as 99.5% of the output from those two mediums does not rise above the lowest common denominator.

i can definitely see games, and I don't necessarily mean RPGs, becoming more literate and competent in their presentation of the author's ideas, sure.

Of "recent" games I would say the game KENTUCKY ROUTE ZERO (an indie adv. game split into 4 chapters, currently being cited by the devs of NO TRUCE W/ THE FURIES as their inspiration) is the best example of a very literate and intelligent game with proper stakes and themes and a sure authorial contract.

KRZ is a gem of a game and I advise eveyrone to go play the chapters.


Seems to be a very nice title. Very well written and have a artistic style that i appreciated. I will see if the gameplay is that good too.

Tks for the suggestion.
 

Leitz

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They can't be. Simple as that. THEY CAN'T BE.

Yes, my question is very silly. Obv good books and movies are deeper than any good games. In future, who knows, we can have better games. But why I would play Torment/Fallout/BG, if I have the possibility to read Dostoievski, Tolstoy, Hugo, Flaubert... or watch a Bergman, Coppola, Kubrick movie? Of course we have the interactivity, but, meh. Games are a waste of time if I think in this way.

But the media have future.
Your question is not silly. Games are interactive, so the only deep moments are the ones you create yourself while playing. The layed out map of a book or movie is not comparable with games. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
 

anvi

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Up to a point, do you think RPGs can be deep enough that they can teach you good lessons about life, humanity, goodness, evil, religion, fear, etc, like those we can extract from good books and movies?
Of course. They could do anything a great book or film does. Although usually they don't because they all have ridiculously bad noob writers except like 3 games in the history of gaming.
 

Black Angel

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No mention of Arcanum? Conversation with the dwarves about Shape and Stone, conversation with the elves of Qintarra about what they truly believe, conversation with the Bedokaan about warm-bloods, and finally the conversation with Kerghan about the nature of life, death, and souls.
 

Iznaliu

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Games are interactive, so the only deep moments are the ones you create yourself while playing. The layed out map of a book or movie is not comparable with games. Whoever has ears, let them hear

Just because games are interactive doesn't mean the primary basis for storytelling has to be through interactivity.
 

Neanderthal

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The New Vegas dlc Dead Money were in my opinion pretty much a perfect example of deep narrative presented through and confirmed by interactive gameplay mechanic. I'd go so far as to say that the story of the Sierra Madre could translate well to other mediums.

On the opposite end of the spectrum i'd present Dungeon Siege, which had some interesting backstory by Neal Halford, but almost none of that connected to the game in any way.

The latter is far more often the presentation of choice from modern developers i've found, who can't be arsed to present a coherent vision, and know that fanboys will forgive them their laziness.
 

Nikanuur

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Up to a point, do you think RPGs can be deep enough that they can teach you good lessons about life, humanity, goodness, evil, religion, fear, etc, like those we can extract from good books and movies?

Can you list some RPGs that can do this? I think Fallout 1 and 2 was good in those areas. And, of course, PST.
What's not to learn from sayings like "There's strength in numbers, and I am two or three at least!"? Or "If a tree falls in the forest... I'll kill the bastard who's done it!"?

Jokes with deeper meaning... Minsc is taunting people who think he is crazy by using their own weapons against them. Jaheira is a Druid who should be all spiritual and stuff, but she knows very well that the mundane cannot be fought by ideals alone. Both can be valid wisdom for everyday's life:
1) If you are deemed stupid, keep playing the fool and catch them by surprise.
2) If you want to do good and protect the weak, hone your skills and learn to deal with what may come, because ideals themselves don't change anything. Actions do.

Stories are written by people who come from this world. Their fantasized setting may differ, but their messages and points will fit this world's situations just as well. Movies, books, RPGs - any of these can be a good source of inspiration.
 
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smaug

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Insert Title Here
No, they are downgrades from immature and illusionary literature, which themselves are downgrades from actual literature.

The writing and experience can be fun and equal to that of contemporary games and movies. But deeper? No, not possible.
 

Nikanuur

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No, they are downgrades from immature and illusionary literature, which themselves are downgrades from actual literature.

The writing and experience can be fun and equal to that of contemporary games and movies. But deeper? No, not possible.
Bah, your crone is immature, downgraded, illusionary, and not possible.
 

Machocruz

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Depth isn't in art, it is in life. Art only has depth because it is a mirror to reality, and to the extent that the author of a work can parse reality (and how well he can convey his understanding, impressions, etc. in the medium of his choice). Problem with most video game developers is they lack this; they've spent most of their lives cloistered indoors glutting on video games and other forms of consumer escapism. They can't say anything meaningful about life because they didn't engage with it much, out of fear, laziness, apathy, whatever, so they don't understand it. They emulate the media they consume, which was also mostly pop-cult dross. Copies of copies of copies. They even get their worldview and opinions and possibly emotions secondhand from social media, and Je- I mean Hollywood propaganda, not from having encountered or taken action in any of the shit they go on about.
 
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Nikanuur

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Depth isn't in art, it is in life. Art only has depth because it is a mirror to reality, and to the extent that the author of a work can parse reality (and how well he can convey his understanding, impressions, etc. in the medium of his choice). Problem with most video game developers is they lack this; they've spent most of their lives cloistered indoors glutting on video games and other forms of consumer escapism. They can't say anything meaningful about life because they didn't engage with it much, out of fear, laziness, apathy, whatever, so they don't understand it. They emulate the media they consume, which was also mostly pop-cult dross. Copies of copies of copies. They even get their worldview and opinions and possibly emotions secondhand from social media, and Je- I mean Hollywood propaganda, not from having encountered or taken action in any of the shit they go on about.
Anything else can happen too, there are many different people etc. and you know it all too well. Are you yourself beyond the possibility of being inspired? No, I don't think you are - so you see?
And anyway, it always depends on what the actual person can take from art/reading/playing, what it gives them personally, i.e. their own state of mind. It is very likely much less about some general ability of the media to inspire.
 
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Serus

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Planescape: The Torture is a great example that teaches a lot about life. There is no heavens, just a zombie gathering gate of eternalishness
Any video game name you get right, other than Black Geyser: Night Postmen?
Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating Pectorals
 

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