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Baldur's Gate RTwP vs TB in Baldur's Gate 3 - Discuss!

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Lichtbringer, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. Kaivokz Arcane

    Kaivokz
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    I don't understand these arguments. I played Baldur's Gate when I was 11 or 12 and I had no problem understanding what was going on. I'm not a genius with a supernatural ability to understand baldur's gate combat... I mean, how do people who find BG and IWD to be incomprehensible clickfests even play TB games? On easy difficulty? Story mode?
     
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  2. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    Only execution matters. Bioware made rtwp games which were fun and replayable and when modded created unique situations like the chaos of nymph teleporting in real time from tree to tree around your party shooting poisonous arrows while some other shit lol rushed you from the rear. (ensue xan dying screams)

    Larian made DOS2 with fucked up ini, magic shields and bloated numbers.

    Will they able to make combat that holds up through the game, or will it degenerate into repeating same tactics of shooting barrels (or might and magic dark messiah them from ledges), against similar groups of 4-6 enemies positioned in obvious prepared arenas? Will monsters be truly dangerous and pleasantly rapey? Will there be mage duels and bouncing spells back and forth? If in few first turns in real fights half your party is poisoned dead petrified mazed or turned to dust, it's BG, if not, it's not BG, it's that simple.
     
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  3. Serus Arcane

    Serus
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    But the discussion in this thread was't (for the most part) what can be "fun" and "replay-able"* but what system is inherently more capable of producing good games - in the context of tactical party-based crpg. I know - it's not in the title of the thread but here we are. Everyone knows that you CAN make good rtwp games and bad turn based games - it's a banality. But which system leads to better tactical gameplay because of its nature, that can be discussed.


    *I for once was always strongly preferred tb for crpg but i still enjoyed BG2 and ID1 back in the day (these 2 of the infinity engine games). And I even can believe that they are replayable with the right mods.
     
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  4. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    And then what? We file complaint for developers to only make games with one kind of system? Now that would make RPG genre super interesting and varied and elite wouldn't it.
     
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  5. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
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    TB isn't necessarily more refined. In fact, most TB systems in CRPGs are way less refined than RTwP. If you have grid for movement and move+action turn, you'll never come anywhere close to the freedom of RTwP. Only the systems that have gridless movement and fine-grained AP cost for abilities are (sometimes) good, and they're relatively uncommon.

    To stay on topic, D&D and PF are special cases simply because the original P&P systems are TB. This alone makes all the "how could you make BG3 TB?!" whining ludicrous. People need keep their expectations reasonable, even if they naturally prefer RTwP.
     
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  6. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    There is no game in existence which requires millimeter-precise movement, so being able to move "in-between" the hexes is unnecessary and pedantic. If the game features such at all, BG3 doesn't. The free movement in RTwP is an indictment, not a virtue. It allows you to recover from huge mistakes which are deadly in TB. You can actually see that when Swen played on stream, the cleric was badly positioned and got destroyed by an arrow in the face. We have to take into consideration the practical experience of playing RTwP, which is always a clusterfuck in these games. There is one RTwP game in which I know what is going on at all times - Tower of Time - and that's because everything is incredibly well visualized (with one very annoying exception) and you only control 4 characters. D&D doesn't work in RTwP, it's a huge compromise which doesn't need to be made because TB doesn't have issues that need fixing with RTwP. If you remove the pause, I'm all for it, but otherwise it's a crutch and it doesn't make sense in terms of design.
     
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  7. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
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    For a ranged character, it's often the difference between "barely in range" and "just out of reach". Of course, if you always have to fight in small claustrophobic rooms, it doesn't matter, but the freedom of movement is a big deal in any well-designed game.

    Of course, it's so great to redo a long difficult fight where you did alright until a single misclick ruined everything. /s
    I'm so sorry for not being a masochist.

    Just because some people can't handle RTwP, doesn't mean no-one can. I'm doing fine. There are some RTwP games with poorly designed combat systems (e.g. DA:I and SCL) but it has nothing to do with RTwP itself.
    Show Spoiler
    DA:I has terrible camera modes, terrible positioning (characters always move even if you want them to stay put) and boring guard/barrier system. SCL has a few extremely OP abilities that completely trivialize combat and Int stacking makes spell DCs ridiculously high.

    The IE games proved that it does work. Like I wrote above, we can't expect the developers to always translate the inherently TB systems into RTwP. Nevertheless, such translation is possible, and RTwP works just fine.
     
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  8. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    By doesn't work, I mean it doesn't make design sense. It technically works in the sense the game is complete-able. I never said it can't be handled, I said it's inelegant and a clusterfuck. It's a compromise which doesn't need to be made. The biggest criticism against the IE games is that it's RTwP, it's a bastardized system that was employed to recycle an engine made for RTSes. It's dumb, it's pointless and it doesn't work.
     
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  9. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
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    RTwP made the IE games great. It happened accidentally (because the engine was indeed re-purposed), but the fact remains. Most TB games were so bad back then that I probably would've never considered playing BG if it were TB.
     
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  10. Lacrymas Arcane

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    What? Fallout, X-Com, the Goldbox games, Wizardry, M&M, Jagged Alliance, Realms of Arkania, Rogue(-likes), Wasteland?? Not to mention TB strategy games like Master of Orion and Master of Magic. RTwP made the IE games dumbed down for casuals and everyone else dreamed of them being TB.
     
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  11. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

    ItsChon
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    Imagine citing a bunch of DOS games and Blobbers as proof that RPGs were so much better TB before BG came out.
     
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  12. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
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    In the late 1990s, I mostly played Diablo and Command & Conquer games and felt completely indifferent towards pretty much all TB games. I bought BG only because it was RTwP, believe it or not.
     
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  13. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    I'm starting to notice a pattern. All the RTwP advocates seem to have (or to have had) very little experience with TB games and the variety they offer.
     
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  14. Latro Arcane

    Latro
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    He's citing games with a high pedigree as proof that TB is a tried-and-true combatfag system. Aren't you the guy that thinks Underrail is amazing? Imagine Underrail RTwP.

    No, they're just eager to gain kool kid kodex cred, itschon is a massive underrail fan.
     
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  15. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

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    Eeryone who advocates against eating shit has very little experience with eating shit.

    Seriously though, this crap about how you can't have an opinion about games you've never played is ridiculous. I know myself well enough, thank you. I almost always know what I'll like and what I'll hate before trying it.
     
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  16. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    You can have an opinion of course, that doesn't automatically mean it's the correct one or that you'll be able to convince anyone of its merits. Especially when it's an entire subset of games with high pedigree. It's not only you, though, I've noticed for a while that pro-RTwP arguments don't really make all that much sense when you take into consideration what the TB games actually are and how they play.
     
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  17. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
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    Yes, but why would I want to convince anyone? I know that RTwP is here to stay because enough people genuinely enjoy it (and I'm one of them).

    If it were my paid job to review video games, I'd be obliged to play and analyze them. But I'm just a guy who remembers that video games are nothing more than a form of entertainment. I'm not going to eat a plate of oranges just to prove that I like them less than apples. I'm not going to torture myself with video games I know I won't like just to prove my point to a bunch of strangers on the Internet.

    See, the problem is that we can't agree about the basics. My opinion is that the freedom of RTwP is important, and yours is that it's superfluous. You say that the ability to recover from a mistake ruins combat, while I find it realistic and convenient. We'll have to agree to disagree, because we don't have any common ground at all.
     
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  18. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

    ItsChon
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    I know, and I think it's hilarious because all the games he listed are ass when compared to the Renaissance-era RPGs. None of the games he listed are proof that RTwP/IE games are for RPG casuals lmao.
    Underrail is amazing, one of the best RPGs of all times and of course it would be much worse if it was RTwP. Y'all seem to be misunderstanding my point. I don't think RTwP is superior to TB, what I'm saying is that different games/systems require different combat systems, and just making a RTwP game turn based wouldn't automatically be an improvement. Flip your analogy around. Imagine if IWD or BG were TB. They would be completely different games, and they'd definitely be worse off for it.
    How does someone saying, "I enjoyed the way RTwP was impleneted in the IE games, and they wouldn't have worked nearly as well if they featured a TB combat system" a nonsensical argument? What part of the statement I just said could you disagree with?
     
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  19. Ontopoly Magister

    Ontopoly
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    They're idiots that can't keep track of two things at once. Your 12 year old self had a higher intelligence and constitution modifier than they do now.
     
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  20. Parabalus Arcane

    Parabalus
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    TB RPGs pale in comparison to dedicated TB combat games.
     
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  21. Lagole Gon Arcane Patron

    Lagole Gon
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    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I'm just happy when we can get a proper cRPG. Which doesn't happen very often.
     
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  22. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

    Lilura
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    You're right. It's better to cite the big three of the Renaissance era:

    1. Jagged Alliance 2
    2. Silent Storm
    3. Temple of Elemental Evil

    All came out after IE inception, and all have better combat systems than any RTwP game, including 7.62 High Calibre (which is as monocled as RTwP gets).
     
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  23. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    I cited these because he said most TB games "back then" were terrible and BG wasn't due to RTwP, so I assumed "back then" meant before BG came out.
     
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  24. hell bovine Arcane

    hell bovine
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    Being able to easily win battles doesn't mean you understand the combat mechanics; it just means that the game is so easy you can win with left-click and autoattack. Take for example the initiative/weapon speed/attacks in a round debate that has been going on for years. It's because a) the manual says one thing and b) the game does another while failing to provide relevant information.
     
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  25. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

    Lilura
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    Nice.

    I've covered speed factor and spellcasting time. I've also covered THAC0, AC, saving throws and ApR in more detail than the manual (and more concisely than AD&D 2nd Edition PHB, which is written terribly). It's cool that the manual didn't spell everything out, though.
     
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