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Baldur's Gate RTwP vs TB in Baldur's Gate 3 - Discuss!

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Lichtbringer, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. adddeed Liturgist Possibly Retarded

    adddeed
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    Turn based combat is tame and boring. Real time with paus makes battles feel more like battles (ie clusterfuck of combatants with spakrs flying and crap like that). Also makes you make minute b minute decision and change strategy on the fly.
    Turn based is to much like chess.
     
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  2. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    I prefer turn-based and don't care what the name on the title screen is.
     
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  3. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    And nothing of value was lost.

    Oh, we do believe.

    ...right.
     
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  4. hell bovine Arcane

    hell bovine
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    That's the point: you need only a very shallow understanding of the mechanics to be competent in BG, because combat is so easy. What you complain about in turn based is, ironically, true for BG: the game is easy mode by default. Becuse any complicated maneuvers involving positioning & character movement? The computer is always sabotaged the most in rtwp. The player can at least hit the spacebar and reissue orders (unfun as it is having to guide your characters around their own feet), but the computer can't. So you end up with 'great design' like enemy thieves backstabbing your characters in the face, to make up for the fact that they can't position themselves in battle in BG.
     
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  5. Alexandros Arcane

    Alexandros
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    I don't understand why we still treat RTwP troglodytes as real people.
     
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  6. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    DOS1 & 2 on Tactician are far harder than any RTwP game I've played on any difficulty.
    A major benefit of turn-based combat is that it allows for much "better"(computationally complex) AI.
     
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  7. NJClaw Ontopolover by choice Patron

    NJClaw
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    Man, what the fug. I enjoy RTwP games, the fact that I think a TB Baldur's Gate would be more fun to me doesn't mean that whenever I play a RTwP game my eyes hurt and I shit myself.
     
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  8. Kaivokz Arcane

    Kaivokz
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    You just said RTwP mechanics are “simply not that fun.” Why would that indicate to me, or anyone, that you enjoy RTwP?

    BG with tactics mod installed you can still play and understand despite the challenge, and that is a better indication of the potential of RTwP. What kind of argument are you even giving here? That RTwP shouldn’t mindlessly ape BG1 in every way, down to manual typos? That is trivially true.

    Half of the TB people say RTwP is ez mode and half say it is inhumane to control 6 units in real time and process the information accurately. Sounds more like rationalization of a preference than an actual argument.
    :troll:
     
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  9. hell bovine Arcane

    hell bovine
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    What potential? The tactics mod is hilarious, but the author made no secret that he coded the enemies to cheese & cheat their way through, e.g. with forcespell scripts. Which are also used by enemies in the original game.

    SCs is way better, but even then it's in spite of rtwp, not because of it. It's still limited by design "solutions" like thieves front-backstabbing. It still is limited by the ai not being able to pathfind their way around the battlefield and avoid aoes.
     
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  10. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Those aren't contradictory. Being inhuman/designed by aliens doesn't mean uncontrollable or hard, it means inelegant and clusterfuck-y as if not designed for humans. Not being able to accurately control your own units or assess the battlefield due to fundamental design is not a virtue.
     
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  11. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Mmm, the RTwP tears are sweet this season
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
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    Molti nemici, molto onore.
     
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  13. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Real Time is all about quick thinking over continous periods of time, mastery over the game's technical aspects and making the most optimal and effiecient actions in the moment-to-moment gameplay.
    As such the fun and challenge comes from being in "grueling" situations that demand constant focus and action and prevailing over all that chaos.

    Turn-Based is much like chess. It rewards cautious, analytic study and deliberate actions, that benefit the long-term success over temporary triumph.
    The entertainment and difficulty lies in making tight, stable and reliable plans that last throughout the conflict, outwit the oponent and achieve the best possible outcome.

    Real Time with Pause is shit, exactely because in trying to synthesize both these designs, it ends compromising both of them and inheriting none of their qualities.
    It can never be as hectic and challenging as RT for the simple reason you can completely break the flow as many times as you want. And it can never be as cerebral as TB since the real time action doesn't allow for any sense of order and long lasting strategy to the conflict.
    It is the casuals system. Made for those that can't rise to the mastery demanded by RT and don't have the head for the measured thoughtfulness of TB.

    /thread
     
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  14. NJClaw Ontopolover by choice Patron

    NJClaw
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    Holy moly macaroni, this is getting political.
     
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  15. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
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    Me ne frego, camerata! :^)
     
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  16. ga♥ Liturgist

    ga♥
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    You are a poser Lacrymas. You are clueless on everything.
    High chances you never played any of the IE games, as you it was already clear when you tried to paint "Ascension" as trivial. Yet you are overjoyous we get this cancer of BG3.
     
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  17. Kaivokz Arcane

    Kaivokz
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    RTwP is casual, while the best selling, mainstream market, console gamer battle system of Original Sin is ... what? For pros?
    :lol:

    Turn based games can be fun, but it’s not like you’re beating a chess master at chess (who can easily be beaten by a computer, himself); you’re beating a subpar AI in a scenario designed to be beaten. You don’t need calculated genius for that, or even much patience, or usually even much foresight. Certainly not on the normal difficulty that most people play at.

    The same is true of RTwP. Any style of RPG can be made challenging by a clever designer, but at the end of the day it’s a controlled environment designed to be beaten. The purpose is the enjoyment you get out of it, not the “accomplishment” of winning.
     
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  18. Theodora Erudite Patron

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    "Consoles ports mean a game is casual", I didn't know we were back to tween platform wars.

    This thread is boring and circular and nobody's opinion is going to be changed (in fact most people aren't even reading your reply, or mine).
     
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  19. Kaivokz Arcane

    Kaivokz
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    I didn't say console ports mean a game is casual. I said it has mass market appeal, and implied that the mass market (yes, esp. the market of consoles) is exactly where you go to find systems suited for casuals.

    Have you been to the codex before? :lol:
     
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  20. Mr. Magniloquent Savant

    Mr. Magniloquent
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    I prefer RTwP. It's more efficient and visceral. The greater uncertainty makes it more cerebral, as you must constantly adapt and anticipate. TB allows players to act unimpeded with total certainty. It's a far more flattering and less risky mode of play. The drip feed of enemy activity is also easier to follow, further soothing the player's anxiety.

    That being said, BG3 being TB is likely positive. It encourages stricter adaptation of D&D mechanics. The more Larian stays inside this box, the better.
     
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  21. Serious_Business Best Poster on the Codex

    Serious_Business
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    No one said that TB required more "skill" than rtwp or that TB was like chess - if anything it probably something like knowledge (of the game's systems and AI), which indeed can create the impression that efficient players of TB games are "skilled" - the distinction between knowledge and skill is in fact a bit blurry here. But the point is more that rtwp is a bastardized system that implies a lot of automation and always was thought of as a kind of "compromise" to appeal to an action-oriented kind of audience. In the end, it creates its own kind of experience, which certaintly isn't very convincing, even if it can I suppose require more skill than TB. The fact is that this peculiar experience changes what player control entails in terms of choice and awareness of the game's progress. Inherently it doesn't serve much, except to make the game faster - and sometimes more confusing. We have to remember of course that the IE engine was built at first with real-time strategy games in mind ; at the time such games were quite popular, but they are very dead now. Is this a bad or good thing, I wouldn't know, but I know that the difference between a TB, 4X kind of strategy game, and something like Warcraft, is tremendous ; the real time aspects imply, there, a huge simplification in the systems. With rpgs this is probably debatable, but you could never translate a superior tactical system to rtwp - not that all TB games present "superior tactical systems". Might and Magic games for example didn't suffer much from their transformation to real-time, because they are pretty whack-a-mole (I do enjoy them, but for the exploration more than the tactical aspects of it).
     
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  22. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

    ItsChon
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    I resent the citation because the combat systems in tactical RPGs work so well due to how the game is structured, I.E missions. How would the same combat systems work in a game like IWD? You would have to make fundamental changes to the amount of enemies there are, the encounters, the types of skills the enemies have, and a host of other things. How the characters move around when not in combat, how the dialogue work, shopping and inventory management, out of combat actions, etc. I liked IWD, and I liked it for all the reasons that make it IWD. The reason I differentiate between "tactical" RPGs and "regular" RPGs, is because a game like ToEE already has all the mechanics and systems in place that are needed for a "regular" RPG (dialogue, walking around out of combat, interacting with NPCs, etc), and the plug and switch wouldn't require as much changes to the system it has versus if you were to plug and switch say JA2.

    And putting all that aside, I don't necessarily always want to play the same TB combat system. What's wrong with having some variety?
     
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  23. Latro Arcane

    Latro
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    Fallout and Underrail are both clear examples of TB-RPGs...which you've played, and should really know how they work.
    Wouldn't be terribly different...

    RTwP is a way to get intuitive and easy to understand hack-n-slash gameplay with a bit more advanced mechanics in, there's nothing "primal" about it.
     
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  24. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    lol
    Gtfo you moron
    I was talking about the objective quality of each systems design, not what people may like the most or how hard the game is
     
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  25. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    Though I prefer turn-based, there's also nothing wrong with RtwP for some variety (and "action" RPGs for that matter). I'm playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker at the moment and purposely not using the turn-based mod, because I enjoy RtwP as well, it changes things up from the turn-based games I play, and obviously the game was designed for it. There's room in this world for lots of different kinds of RPGs. The main issue here is BG 1 and 2 were RtwP, so changing things gets the RtwP fans all fussy.
     
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