Game News Sacred Fire, a psychological RPG set in ancient Caledonia, now on Kickstarter

[Zorba the Hutt]

 

[sstacks]

Normally I would say just the usual Codex tomfoolery, but in this case... seconded!

 

[Fenix]

Yeah, let's not scare the developer.

 

[poetic]

Okay, that's fair enough. I just wanted to know whether I should rage at the historical inaccuracies or just enjoy the game!

Calm down, deep breath - it's a game for a modern audience. Remember me asking poetic how historically accurate it was intended to be and him replying that he was inspired by history but not a strict recreation?

Yes, if he'd said it was 100% historically accurate and then we had a game full of modern sensibilities then I'd be annoyed that I'd been conned. But it's just a game, from a developer who grew up in the 20th, not the 2nd century, and it looks like it could be pretty fun.

That's the gist of it. Thanks Bumvelcrow.

 

[daveyd]

Not sure why some self-proclaimed historians are sperging so hard over apparent historical inaccuracies in a game "inspired by" ancient Caledonia. It's not much different from AoD being inspired by the late Roman empire. I don't expect Expeditions: Viking to be a history lesson either. They're works of fiction meant to be entertaining for fucks' sake. I'm just glad to see a rare RPG being made in a world without magical elves.

Anyway, the game looks really fantastic. I mean, it's got a really nice art style to it and the psychological combat seems like a very novel approach to battles. Will it be amazing? I don't know but I'm willing to put up a measly $18 to find out.

 

[Ismaul]

I'd really like a gameplay video that explains the conflict system, moment by moment, choice by choice. The current videos are just a mess of floating numbers and octogons.

I'm willing to give it a chance on concept alone, but at some point I want to know wtf I'm going to play.

 

[daveyd]

I'd really like a gameplay video that explains the conflict system, moment by moment, choice by choice. The current videos are just a mess of floating numbers and octogons.

I'm willing to give it a chance on concept alone, but at some point I want to know wtf I'm going to play.

The developer commentary video around the 7 min mark explains it a bit. I still wouldn't say I fully understand how it will work yet, but it seems Poetic has a conflict centric update planned.

 

[MRY]

Not sure why some self-proclaimed historians are sperging so hard over apparent historical inaccuracies in a game "inspired by" ancient Caledonia.

Isn't the objection that the deviations from history embody a political viewpoint that the critics don't like? It's kind of unfortunate that this is what reactions to game designs have become, though -- it seems like developers should just tell the stories that move them in the settings that interest them, letting the chips fall where they may (whether this is Witcher or Sacred Fire). If Poetic wants to have gaggles of awesome shield maidens establishing a tolerant, egalitarian, environmentalist utopia north of Hadrian's Wall (to take the most exaggerated view of the game's themes), why shouldn't he tell that story? And if the Witcher developers want to employ a pseudo-Poland with certain folkloric aspects but not other deviations that Kotaku wants, why shouldn't CD Projekt tell that story? At this point there are so many games being developed these no need to insist upon any one game including or excluding elements to satisfy a constituency. (Of course, this is just me laying the groundwork for my defense of FG's exclusions and deviations. "Why no shieldmaidens!" "Where is ibn Fadlan?" "Orm is a sacrilegious shadow of Odin!" "Why are you mixing later folklore about trolls into Norseana?" "The word 'beast' is French in origin!")

Anyway, game looks great, seems like a totally novel approach to gameplay and it's a pretty unused setting.

 

[Fenix]

why shouldn't he tell that story?

Nobody tells that.
But why we shouldn't criticize that story?

 

[MRY]

why shouldn't he tell that story?

Nobody tells that.
But why we shouldn't criticize that story?

Well, I generally think criticism is great, so I wouldn't say not to criticize the story. But that seems somewhat different from getting angry about the story's premises. It's not something I've spent a lot of time analyzing, but generally I think it's somewhat better to say, "I just can't get into space opera" rather than attacking a particular space opera novel for its absurd use of WWII dogfights or age-of-sail imperial concepts or anti-scientific FTL notions. In the same way, I think it is generally better if, say, Kotaku just wrote off The Witcher by saying, "We don't like games that aren't diverse" rather than giving some lengthy explanation for why such games are wrong and should be changed. I view those fundamental likes/dislikes as different from criticism about the execution of the story, but I'm not sure I could offer a coherent explanation as to why, only that I think bashing games' premises from a political bent seems to be counterproductive to game development, while criticizing a game's execution of its premises seems to be productive.

Obviously, as I've said a million times, I am also not suggesting that people should be stopped from criticizing games, even harshly -- I'm just not sure it's the best approach. I'd rather encourage developers, particularly small developers, to chase their ideas without being worried about people shouting at them out of the gate.

Any game these days allows you to be an awesome shield maiden, despite little evidence of women owning the battlefield as actual warriors and not just a few rare inspirational mascots.

Not Fallen Gods! I'm awaiting the angry responses to the fact that "maidens" are basically Romance of the Three Kingdom level currency...

It's unfortunate... that it's all so monotonous and one-sided.

I guess... It's not really my preferred mode, but it's not like God of War and Warhammer and so on don't exist, too. So I'm not sure it's really that one-sided. Still, I do share some of your view that it robs the uniqueness from Hervor or whatever to treat her as a dime a dozen.

Maybe because it's a saturated market? Hadrian's Wall is a meaningless stage prop in a game world with all the cultural assumptions as every other game out there. He could save effort by realising how tired his world-view is, and how stale his story's basic assumptions are.

This seems like overstatement and maybe putting your expectations of them too low. To me it looks like a fairly distinct take on the genre, and I disagree with the idea that a progressive fantasy of Celtic tribes is per se doomed to failure, since that was the fantasy of KoDP and it worked out great!

 

[Bibbimbop]

But that seems somewhat different from getting angry about the story's premises.

What premises? The story has only one unique premise: Hadrian's Wall.

A merely physical token of the vast differences in time and culture. Everything else is borrowed from modern Judeo-Christian universalist axioms about society. (Everyone has the same potential; human life is sacred and precious; feelings are facts; peace is possible if we love everyone)

It's not something I've spent a lot of time analyzing, but generally I think it's somewhat better to say, "I just can't get into space opera".

Sure, but what if every game on the market were a space opera, and when you see one title loudly proclaiming "Not a Space Opera! 4x Strategy in the Ancient World!" on the sales pitch, and then you discovered that it was a 4x about the ancient world with the hypothesis that all the ancient gods were really just Psilon and Bulrathi and Darlock space aliens controlling human nations like chickens in a cock-fight for intergalactic betting purposes.

There is no sane voice out there for a hormonally-balanced RPG.

 

[Xzar]

To dev. You misunderstood me, I never talked about safety of children. But i'm not inclined to press that topic further.

What I do find worrisome, as someone who loves pagan (especially Greco-Roman) religions and antiquity, and studies them, is lack of mystic approach and over-exposition of do-goodery. Its not like good material is not possible to do under this approach. I remember Sergio Leone's Pompeii movie was fair, even though it was Christian propaganda in Roman setting. But I do want games which will bother not about contemporary themes in new clothes, but approach this period and its ethics seriously and without censorship.

 

[MRY]

Everything else is borrowed from modern Judeo-Christian universalist axioms about society. (Everyone has the same potential; human life is sacred and precious; feelings are facts; peace is possible if we love everyone)

Maybe I haven't studied the pitch enough -- what I saw was a lot of people killing each other and shouting mean things to each other, but who knows?

Anyway, someday maybe Fallen Gods will get done and it will scratch the itch.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Yes Calm down Comrades if they game is not up our tastes because of either faulty history or modernist themes we still are not forced to fund it. Shame on Codexer who on the other hand pay shekels for pos like Adromeda. We still have Age of Decadence.

 

[valcik]

Everything else is borrowed from modern Judeo-Christian universalist axioms about society. (Everyone has the same potential; human life is sacred and precious; feelings are facts; peace is possible if we love everyone)

Since Andrej Vojtáš is from Slovakia, I do believe this view may be influenced by pre-Christian Slavic history. Old Slavic spirituality was worshipping mother nature and the life itself actually, while wise women were well respected among the tribes.

 

[Fenix]

getting angry

It is just a label.
Also why it is considered as something bad is beyond me? Because anger is a normal reaction of human, and human is an animal right? Or he is not?

"I just can't get into space opera"

I can into anything, just that I don't want to eat shit, doesn't mean I can't do it.

rather than attacking a particular space opera novel for its absurd use of WWII dogfights or age-of-sail imperial concepts or anti-scientific FTL notions

Why I should walk away every time I see something unacceptable and inappropriate, and why do you find this behavior acceptable and even correct?
Because it is behavior of victim, and a trait of highly atomized society, which isn't something new and good.
Saying "My house is on the edge of the village" carries a negative connotation in Russian.

I think it is generally better if, say, Kotaku just wrote off The Witcher by saying, "We don't like games that aren't diverse"

It's not happening and never will.

seems to be counterproductive to game development

You forget simple thing - all this game gevelopment thing exist in real world were different cultural vectors struggling with each other.
So of course it is counterproductive - that's the point.
One tendency try to strangle another - that's a war of cultures.

I'd rather encourage developers, particularly small developers, to chase their ideas without being worried about people shouting at them out of the gate.

Anyone with a spine understand it.

wise women were well respected among the tribes

Maybe that will surprise you, but even in soviet times in almost every village were woman, I don't know right name - sage, healer, google gave me "wise woman" too lol, those who who can heal with herbs but not only herbs but some dunno, charms.



Also here is going on literally circus lol.

 

[poetic]

Again, not trying to change someones worldview, just explaining what the game is and isn't:

1) In Sacred Fire peace is only possible trough military strength and smart tactics.

It states clearly that you have to wage a real resistance war, even if you want to build a better world. And resistance wars are messy (see the movie Max Manus Men of War, or playThis War of Mine and you will understand, why I speak about survival guilt). This path to peace is what the Caledonians did historically. Flavius (the leader of the Roman armies in the game) can justify the war back at Rome, only if he get spoils of war or glory, or needs to defend the honor of Rome after a big defeat or aggression from the tribes. So the path to peace is to give them neither.

No glory or shame of a big battle, no spoils, let them find just scorched earth, decrease their moral, sabotage supply lines, pay in blood for every step they take. This is what I gather from reading about Severus invading Caledonia. This is the way to peace I present. Buy can you keep the honor-based majority of your tribe from doing exactly that - getting provoked into a big battle? As that's exactly what Flavius counts on. And can you survive the backslash your peace-politics creates? Nial, Morrigan and potentially a few others of the 10 characters will actively try to kill you for it.


2) In Sacred Fire 3 out of 10 characters (Wid, Clair and Marcus) stand out from the mainstream honor, die-by-the-sword, culture in their world-views.

Wid's and Clair's altruism is psychology driven (Wid is protective, Clair is traumatized), Marcus' ideological. The game is inspired by 2nd century A.D. where Judeo-Chrtistian views historically existed, and cultural exchange took place along the Hadrian Wall, it's not as I am making that up. What makes for an interesting exploration is that Christianity back than was perceived as anarchy by political powers and the concept of a religion with no sacrifice-based cult was perceived as atheistic by pagan religions. These are the angles that interest me, the inner/psychological freedom from a political society or organized religion, not the normative consequences of western religions.

In Sacred Fire your player character starts with an open-mind, weather to seek peace as described above, or weather to channel the rage of the tribes and go after Rome.

Story branching, multiple play-styles, that's good RPG design. Being a psychological RPG, the story-branching is not so much about the physical world - weather I defeat Rome now, or sacrifice a few, regroup and do it later. You do that kinds of choices too, but Sacred Fire's writing goes deeper and explores the motives, why I do what I do and how that impacts the quality of life after reaching the goal. For me it makes for more variety and choices. Form where I stand, exploring a purely pagan worldview makes for a less interesting debate, and as mentioned there are games like God of War that do that to an extent that it's already in the cliche territory for me. That's why Wid, Clair and Marcus are the first 3 characters in the Kickstarter pitch. This is a game that is not afraid to explore peaceful conflict resolution, as very few games do that, as they can not attribute a challenge to these options. My design allows that, as all the lesser emotions draw you into violence, be it anger or fear.


3) Sacred Fire gives you different starting stats based on gender. A female character gets strength penalty, and an empathy bonus (as in emotional intelligence, not being soft).

Oh, I am looking forward to the backslash that this will generate from SJW When I mentioned, Etain overcoming her trauma reducing her life to vengeance driven murdering, I said 'she can still be effective at killing' - psychologically. That she doesn't have hangups about killing but she does it for other reasons, she is no longer an empty vessel. I never claimed woman are physically as strong as men, in fact I might be one of the few RPGs that acknowledge that in their rules.

It's very much like Jazz_ mentioned, if you are a woman in Sacred Fire you will have to go for the weak spots, and use every advantage you can, fair or unfair to survive. But the game is innovative in that way, that psychological insight (empathy) and emotional manipulation in combat ARE possible and can give you the edge to win with lower strength. Sexism is a thing, so men will underestimate you and you can use it to your advantage. So feelings are not facts, but they affect your performance in battle. It's much more realistic than the current assumption in most games, that everyone performs at their peak level, no matter the odds they face.

4) In Sacred Fire you can build a character that draws his strength from hate.

As shown in the first seconds of the video. The anger just sips trough into other areas of your character's life. Again it's a better design than to have a luronarrative dissonance as in Red Dead Redemption, where you can go on a killing spree for most of the game and then in the last cut scene turn into a family men. And it makes for a good challenge, an internal conflict game mechanism you have to overcome. You can not expect me to pass up that idea in a psychological RPG, just to conform to your need to go berserk in a game without consequences.

 

[hivemind]

Oh, I am looking forward to the backslash that this will generate from SJW

could probably use this as marketing tbqh

if like the pledger stream dies down midway just make and updating mentioning char creatoin + this aspect and hope that some mainstream cuck game journalist will get triggered and generate traffic for you

 

[Charles Eli Cheese]

It is just a label.
Also why it is considered as something bad is beyond me? Because anger is a normal reaction of human, and human is an animal right? Or he is not?

Liblols love to talk about people being angry all the time. I have a completely blunt affect and yet every day the shit for brains on this site who themselves are overemotional fembots make these dumb accusations. Just because I want to grind them into dirt does not mean I am angry, that is a normal reaction to homofaggots.

 

[poetic]

What's the framework for the psychological bits? A net of scripted interactions with mental skillchecks or something else?

A numeric personality model, you control short-term and develop long-term + scripted interactions with checks + evolving NPC relations and influence strength

We use a numeric character model like most RPG rulesets and ours has values for things like positive and traumatic memories, discomfort (pain, hunger, cold), stress (hostility, time pressure). These change your predisposition to get angry or scared and fear and anger change your performance.

The other part of the design is we prepare various options in a critical situation to gain an edge - each option has a chance of success based on the long term attributes/skills/personality/traits and your current emotional state. You have a limited resource - willpower points, you can use them to boost the probabilities of a success check. And to keep your emotions in check. You can also use it in the long term strategy part of the game and thus everything you save up in the 'action' part of the game, can be invested to develop your character, and relationshiops and prepare you for the next round of action.

The RPG ruleset and writing supports gaining an edge and progressing trough: strength, skills, intellect, appearance and empathy(emotional intelligence).

 

[poetic]

We will be detailing the character creation process and explain the various attributes and traits in an upcoming campaign update, for now, this is how the character stats screen looks like:

 

[Van-d-all]

Looks decent.

 

[poetic]

We reached 50% with almost 20 days to go! Thank you all, this is going really well!

While we all may have grown accustomed to stories about Kickstarters that blast past their initial goal on day one and reach more and more stretch goals, we truly appreciate what we have here. This is all I could have hoped for, a steady stream of backers who help us spread the word because they like the look, the characters and the innovation in Sacred Fire.

We have also published our first update focused on design, explaining how Sacred Fire connects story and gameplay, by adding challenge to choice making and connecting story branching to renown won in battle.

Thank you for your support. This race is just getting started and we are preparing more juicy updates about combat, character creation, replayability and more.

 

[Excidium II]

Is there a reason everyone wears green clothes.

 

[daveyd]

Is there a reason everyone wears green clothes.

The Roman soldiers don't.