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SaGa Series Discussion

Grampy_Bone

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Gauntlets/armlets affect your accuracy, btw. Another thing that is never mentioned anywhere in-game, though to be fair I do believe there is 1 npc who mentions something about this in RS 2.

They increase or reduce accuracy?

Thanks for all the info.

Reduce. Mainly a problem for Axes. With most weapons you won't even notice.

Also, some tips you may not be aware:

-Open the workshop and travel to all the towns to recruit smiths ASAP. You can get most of the good items there. It's in the town with the Devil King palace but the name escapes me at the moment.
-Recruit or play as Thomas to play the 'capitalism' minigame. It's kinda fun but I think all you really get is money.
-Pick Mikhail as your starting character to play the 'kingdom' minigame with army battles. It's pretty hard.
-If you have 6 characters, put your lead character in the reserve slot to activate 'commander' mode. In commander mode you can't give your team orders individually, but they can learn special combo techs, they heal every round, and recover status every round (including death). Different formations give different techs.
-If you pick Sarah as your main, she has a special commander mode that's even better.
 

aweigh

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For some reason my character who's supposed to be a knight looks super gay and has purple fairy wings on his back, but whatever... it's 2020 amirite. Anyway the game sure does clean up nicely when you raise dat resolution.

At first I really hated this art style but it's slowly growing on me.
zMSAlbert01.png

zMSAlbert02.png
zMSAlbert03.png

zMSAlbert04.png
 
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eric__s

ass hater
Developer
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Messages
2,301
Minstrel Song is my personal favorite game in the Romancing series. It takes a lot of the series' best mechanics and puts them together. It was my favorite SaGa game up until Scarlet Grace came along. But yeah, it really looks incredible upscaled in PCSX2. Don't even apply any filters or anything, it looks great on its own.
 

aweigh

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eric__s Jinn

I have a question, why is the DP cost for these techs colored red and green? At first I thought it had to with skill levels, perhaps, since when you try to use a weapon you don't have any points in the DP cost for the default attack with the weapon will be a green-colored "1", however I obviously have skill levels in Foil (Albert starts with that as part of his char-class of Frontier Knight), so it isn't that.

Then I thought perhaps the red and green colors for the techs' DP costs had to do with the different modes (atk/def/trick), but that isn't it either since they don't correspond to the mode colors. Anyone know?

zRSMSAlbertRedDPQuestion.png

zRSMSAlbertGreenDPQuestion.png


Second question: what are the benefits for using Defense or Trick mode on your weapon?

a) If I use an Attack-property tech, like Impact Slash, while Albert's weapon is in Defense mode (blacksmith option), does that give the Tech some kind of penalty? Some modifier?

b) If I use a Defense-property tech like Feint (i think it's actually Trick but whatever) while my weapon is in Defense mode, does that give a positive bonus or modifier?

c) The tutorial information (little kid standing in villages) says that attack/def/trick modes function as rock-paper-scissors versus the enemy's modes with attack > trick > defense > attack, etc. That part I understand just fine, but I suspect currently-selected weapon mode also modifies in some way the different weapon techs, since each weapon tech is coded to a specific Mode.

Also, I know the different weapon modes give other bonuses besides the rock-paper-scissor element: for example, I read that Trick-style mode gives a Turn Order bonus of some sort, which is why I suspect the modes also modify the individual weapon techs (else why bother Mode-coding each tech).

Lastly: does having albert's foil in Defense mode perhaps increase chances of deflection or shield-blocking triggering? Does having the weapon in Atk or Trick mode instead then lower them?
 
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aweigh

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Oh, another question: so from reading how weapon Tempering works, it seems like I really shouldn't temper my weapons except on very specific cases? DP runs out very fast, basically I can exhaust Sif's Zweihander's DP just by using Smash in 10-12 encounters, so that means DP runs out VERY fast, and if a weapon is Tempered that means I won't be able to restore its DP at the inn.

Seems like that means I should not temper weapons unless I can handle it, right? Which means basically not to temper anything for now.

*Except armors, seems like there isn't any downside for tempering armor, besides the obvious downside that it costs money.
 

Grampy_Bone

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aweigh

Red means it *will* consume that much durability to use that attack. Yellow means it *might* consume durability.

DP costs go down with class level, proficiency, and weapon upgrades.

About weapon modes-- Every weapon has techs that fall into the three modes, using the correct mode makes you more likely to spark techs from that mode. But this is SaGa so anything can happen.

Each mode has a bonus. Attack boosts damage, Defense reduces damage, Trick boosts speed. In practice Defense is the most useful mode where you'll see a noticeable difference. Attack mode doesn't do much except for specific classes, and trick mode does practically nothing. But you may want to switch modes to learn more techs.

Idk about the rock-paper-scissors effect of modes, you never see what modes the enemies are using so there's not much point in trying to figure it out.

About tempering-- Tempered weapons restore DP by re-tempering. So you can keep re-hammering iron into a sword to get full DP.

But there is another mechanic--harmonious materials. When you temper an item, you can find "harmonious" materials. Temper the weapon then go fight some battles and it will upgrade to a new weapon. Most weapons can be tempered several times and will end up pretty powerful.

Reducing DP cost is a factor of character progression, many weapons have a bonus which reduces it, higher level classes get a bonus, and crowning. Over time you will be able to use most techs without damaging your weapons, but early on it's usually too much of a hassle.
 
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aweigh

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Thanks a lot! Finally a clear answer about the DP number colors, I didn't know/realize that some instances had a chance of not consuming DP, but it makes sense now. Also yeah, I remember now that Blacksmith class has that bonus built-in where every tech has the chance to *not* consume their DP cost. (I think it was Blackmisth class).

As for the weapon tempering: yeah, that explains a lot. But
So you can keep re-hammering iron into a sword to get full DP.
isn't exactly free, and also not all blacksmiths have the same material available or give you the chance to use custom materials, which means if your tempered weapon runs out of DP and for whatever reason you can't at the moment reach a blacksmith that can temper it with the material you want/need, then that's a huge inconvenience (i.e. you'll need to use another weapon).

I learned about the harmonious materials things with Gray as I played him up to when I put some bronze on the Falcata and the guy told me to go fight with it; that's when I decided to try Albert instead cos I wanted to use the beginner char instead.

I've also noticed that tempering and other blacksmithing options can give a pretty wide array of bonuses to power and DP, and/or chage the DP modifer and also the weight, but I noticed that pretty much any change usually affects one other value, like for example a material or upgrade that boosts Power will reduce the weapons DP as a trade-off, or vice-versa, or something might boost the DP pool but lower the damage or increase the weight, etc. I assume that the top-tier materials will give lots of positive modifiers with little-to-no negative ones.

Also, lastly, thanks for confirming what I suspected about the atk/def/trick modes. Glad to know they work like that, as it makes the most sense and also gives the most depth to the game. Coincidentally the Legend of Legacy/Alliance Alive games from those ex-SaGa devs use the same system but they call it "Positions", you put characters in attack/guard/support positions and that affects those things in terms of bonuses/modifiers; I liked this immediately when I saw it on Alliance Alive (i'm about halfway thru that one), glad to know they just ripped it off SaGa same as everything else.
 

aweigh

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When considering classes, how should I level them up? For example, Albert has Frontier Guard, and that includes its own set of weapon skills, however if I spend jewels on another class that has Foil but isn't Frontier Guard, will it level the foil to the next level? I think I already know the answer to that as I was experimenting and I noticed that:

- Albert has Foil level 1, and if he buys a level of a class that has Foil in it and also other weapons he doesn't know yet then when I spend the jewels on that class it will give Albert 1st level of the other weapons but the Foil level remains at level 1, which means I would need to buy the second level of that other class in order to then level Foil to level 2, but that means that I then will have to basically sink all of albert's jewels on that class, cos the cost will keep rising.

It's a bit confusing. I'm kind of sure how it works but some clarification would be very welcome. It's confusing in-game how you are one class but can spend jewels on other classes without actually changing your class.
 

Grampy_Bone

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When considering classes, how should I level them up?

Initially you can only train skills via class groupings, but IIRC when you hit level 3 in any class you can buy skills individually. Skills are permanent to the character once learned, buying them in a class group is just cheaper. So yes Albert's foil skill will work with any other class. Having the right array of skills qualifies you for the class, then you have to find the right trainer to switch to it. I believe switching classes is free once you have all the skills for it.

You're going to want some adventure skills on everyone eventually, so it's up to you how you budget your jewels. Jump, Stealth, climb, etc, all improve the more people in the party have them.

There's three sets of classes, tier 1 have 3 skills and minor bonuses, tier 2 have 5 skills and significant bonuses, and tier 3 have 7 skills and they all have the same bonus (reduce DP costs).

Basically you have to decide whether you want the tier 2 specialist class bonus or the juicy tier 3 DP reduction which will allow you to bust out techs more easily. Jewels are primarily awarded from quests. They can be farmed but it's a pain, so it's an important choice to pick and choose classes, the level 4 and 5 upgrades are expensive. If you play the game multiple times on the same save file, the jewel yield of quests keeps going up, so you get more freedom in later runs.
 
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Grampy_Bone

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Playing The Last Remnant again, I forgot just how awesome this game was.

So weird how it was even made. They wanted to sell JRPGs to Xbox players, but somehow Akitoshi Kawazu gets put in charge, despite Nomura and Kitase both having better track records selling games to the west? I don't know what monkey's paw wish led to this guy getting a real budget to make a game but what we ended up with is so ridiculous. Huge world, tons of characters, massive insane battles, baffling control, WTF random shit everywhere, fancy pants cutscenes and voice acting, and one of the greatest soundtracks of the era. But how the fuck is this supposed to entice Gears of War couch co-op bros? "Put lots of blood in there." lol, every attack sprays blood everywhere. Great idea, genius. 10/10.

I should be going through the Seiken 3 remake but this is way more addictive.
 

Matador

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Jun 14, 2016
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Loving Romancing Saga 3 so far, the gameplay loop is very satisfying and I like the scarcity of money. Can't have everyone in the team with the best gear available and picking spells is like buying a house in real life.

Sparking skills and trying to remember them permanently without dying and/or consuming too much SP and MP is very fun.

My only gripe with the game is how trying to find quests in the open world gets in the way of this gameplay loop. Sometimes is easy, but other times is a chore going city to city trying to find something to do adequated for your strength, to get very little money to upgrade equipment, or nothing at all.

I would like some more direction or at least the adventure log being better implemented to manage activities. I have decided to consult this site for getting some direction, because I like a lot the party development and combat. For magic, formations and tech systems I think I prefer to explore them on my own until I get into a serious hurdle.

https://romancing-saga-3.blogspot.com/p/rs3-walkthrough.html

Overall I like the game a lot, but I think the lack of structure and opaque questing don't fit well with the "Wizardry 1" (like aweigh named it) party development and combat loop. I would prefer to be almost all the time exploring and fighting in dungeons like an autist, and getting back in town to get a bit of story and upgrading gear. In a game like Baldur's Gate 2 or Fallout 2 the questing and city exploration is very good, so I enjoy doing those parts, but in a SNES title is very limited, so I think the game should play to its strengths.

Is it Romancing Saga 2 more focused in this regard?
 

aweigh

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Is it Romancing Saga 2 more focused in this regard?

Yes. It is ironically far more conventional: although you control multiple parties throughout the game you only ever do so once at a time, and you don't have to search around for people to form a party with as the basic classes are all represented in your home base. It is enjoyable to go around recruiting people into your party each time you control a new Emperor, and as you progress thru the game you unlock new people/classes to recruit so that you start looking foward to the next generation and planning out that party. It's something not really present in Minstrel Song or RS 3.

It is also, again a bit surprisingly, a lot more focused in terms of what "quest" you're going to do at any given moment. You're the Emperor/Empress, and you have an advisor that literally comes up to you and says "Hey there's a goblin raid happening in this town! Maybe u should go", stuff like that, and the game is surprisingly very restrained in the amount of places you can go to for the first half so it is hard to get "lost"; eventually the hints do stop coming, though, and the advisors will fall silent but that's by mid-game or so and by then you will have around 60% of all locations and know what to do and where to go in general terms.

Also, in RS 2, there is no overworld travel per-se, when you exit your castle you are greeted with a world map with locations that you select and then instantly go there, and you automatically unlock most locations for the first half of the game. There is a ton of side-content of course (a LOT), and it is unforgiving for missables (I locked myself out of Brawler monks, Amazons, and Mermaids just from the choices I made and/or locations I chose to visit), but it is far less "open-world" than Minstrel Song or RS 3 or SaGa Frontier 1.

That said, you still have to unlock locations and things to do by talking to everyone in every location, tho, you do that in RS 2 as well. I remember at one point I just gave up trying to find one of the 7 Heroes, the fish guy one, and just went to a walkthru and it turns out I just had to talk to an NPC I had "missed" in a town, just like I suspected, but It did become grating. In retrospect, in that particular case, it was entirely my own fault as the NPC that unlocks that NPC does tell you where to go, it's just a bit vague and I must have spaced out and mashed the A button and didn't register the information.

Also, while I haven't played RS 3 it seems like RS 2 is definitely the outlier in the series in terms of goals: in RS 2 you always have a driving motivation and the game goal is the same throughout... you are the motherfucking EMPEROR and you are hunting down the 7 Heroes cos they need to be put down, and everything you do is towards that, so it seems like it gives a bit more clarity to the proceedings; and you operate out of your home town, and at least for the first half of the game there is always something or someone there telling you what to do or giving some kind of hint. Eventually that stops tho, but like I said by then you already know what's what.

EDIT: I did end up using a walkthru for some stuff, like for example I couldn't figure out how to do the Bard quest in RS 2, and after looking it up I'm glad I did. Involves a metric ton of "leg work" going around and asking people. NPCs will say "the Bard went north!" and it's like, bitch there are 5 different towns north of here wtf...

Stuff like that will be a bit "shocking" because the game itself is so fucking ahead of its time that you forget that it's almost 30 years old.

***Definitely recommend looking up the data sheets on every recruitable character. The games don't tell you shit about them and even tho one guy might go "I'm good with greatswords!" it will turn out he is a 1-handed sword spark-type because while lore-wise he's a "greatsword user", stat-wise he's classified as a Sword Generalist and not as a Greatsword Specialist, and that sort of stuff dictates the access to specific sparks and techs. Also it's good to know a character's modifiers for the rest of the stuff, it's nice to know whether they have a +4 in fire magic but are have a negative -2 modifier in Magic resistance, etc.***
 
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Tigranes

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Jan 8, 2009
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10,080
Matador RS3 almost feels like their version of going 'open world', yes. I spent most of the game just jumping from city to city trying to make sure I talked to everyone, finding theo ne place where there's a quest that I can do. But honestly the game is very opaque about how you even look for such opportunities. I also used that same site judiciously and it's very helpful when you're stuck.
 

Matador

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I have printed in pdf the item tables you posted some pages back in the thread, aweigh . Great resource you discovered there.
 

aweigh

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Leon can't spark anything.
 

OgreHermit

Barely Literate
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Mar 14, 2020
Messages
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Decided to give SaGa Scarlet Grace another try again. Abandoned my old Urpina playthrough and started with Leonard. Admittedly enjoying myself a lot more and I'm pretty hooked, but trying to pace myself. I feel like I originally dropped the game due to burnout and the fact that Urpina completely annoys me.
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
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Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,249
Trying to do the scarlet shards quest on Urpina. Destroyed shards in

NE Boundary
Justinia
Normi
Ceranaif
Megdasse
Bicyniro
Gradion

Can't get into Hibernia. Am I missing a shard or something? Sasha just tells me to go to Hibernia...
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,249
Ahh, looks like the one I missed was in Numadica. Thanks Grampy_Bone, that FAQ is useful; seems like most info on the game is in moonrunes. Google translate: "Bikini Frontier State", sounds like my kind of place!

I decided to just go to Azhuacan and fight hard-mode firebringer: beat him this morning.

Overall I enjoyed the game a lot, but I agree that the difficulty disappears in the second half.

The music is so good. The synth lead in the middle of the song is tasty.
 

Lincolnberry

Educated
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
44
Apologies in advance if this is the wrong place to ask - but what would you recommend for a first SaGa game? Seems there's been a number across systems (I mainly PC), and has some complexity around the battle system (I've seen that referenced w The Last Remnant in reviews, though I've never played it).

Would love to try one but ideally would start somewhere I'm not going to get completely ****housed from the first moment.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,111
SaGa Frontier is my favourite in the series and a good one to start with, just don't pick Lute or Asellus to start with, their plots are fucky and unfinished. The mechanics are weird but easy to learn/intuit and the storyline flows well, whereas you can hit a wall in a lot of the earlier games depending on the path you take where you don't know where to progress because it's some obscure shit.
 
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