Save RPG magic by making every player character a mage?

[Dark Elf]

The way most RPG's would have it, magic users are little more than humanoid artillery pieces dressed in robes. A lone wizard could incinerate armies with a mere gesture, a cleric would be a one-man hospital who could cure every disease, heal any wound and raise people from the dead if need be. Nowhere is there a price tag attached to magic, it always works in cornucopian fashion provided that there's enough juice in the blue bar or enough Vancian slots filled. In such games, one wonders why mages simply aren't running the show, making all them pesky warrior-lords who inexplicably rule such worlds implode? Why are peasants toiling away at their fields when low-level clerics can wave their hands about and create water and food? The power structure would heavily favour magic users, the economy would run around in a straitjacket, seems the verdict.

The problem, it seems to me, is the way RPG systems work. They're based around parties where each individual is specialised in a skill useful to that party. Since the fighter can always swing his sword and the thief can always pick his locks, the mage must always be able to cast his spells. Unfortunately, this line of reasoning takes the mystery out of magic.

So, if I were to make a game, I would have considered this:

Make magic divine. It is a gift from the gods, dispensed at the gods' discretion (if it was all a matter of syllables and gestures, everyone would learn it eventually). Let the character work for like 1/3 of the game pleasing their god of choice, and then have them ascend as that deity's chosen one (ie, become a mage). The gift of magic should reflect the god - a chosen of the God of War would probably be something akin to Shadowrun's physical adepts, whereas those chosen by the Goddess of Love Sex would be able to influence and bend minds. Let the character then create their own spells from a list of effects, and give every such effect a power level. The character should only be able to use a set amount of power within a specified time limit/before resting/before sacrificing something to that god/performing rituals/whatever (because of this, ironman mode and survival á la RoA should be an integral part of the game). If the character uses too much power in one sitting, something bad should happen - temporary insanity, physical injury, a tentacle sprouting from their forehead (Tzeentch!), premature aging etc etc. The chosen one would also be the agent of their god, and would risk losing their powers if they did something that god didn't approve of (which requires some good lore and writing, especially in the case of overtly evil gods).

Flame away.

 

[SCO]

No i agree, it's a good idea for a setting

however. Let me point out that the idea of delaying the satisfaction as a mage is not new - mages in D&D already are shit-soft at low levels.

 

[Saark]

Not to mention that in D&D even then their magic arsenal is limited by their intelligence modifier and their level. With a good gamemaster you always get into situations where you as a mage are saving your group with massive spells, while sometimes you are completely useless and have to depend on the other players in the party. For cRPGs it is nearly impossible to implement such a "feature", since you could rest in about every second screen in every D&D game, while other games don't limit the amount of spells you have, but the interval in which you can use them (by putting a cooldown on them or giving you a mana bar).

What you describe basically comes down to what charms in Exalted are. Powerful "spells" that are different compared to pure sorcery (which also exists and unfortunately is as retarded as what you wrote about in your first paragraph), granted by your god or some other greater entity, that distinguishes you from all the other peons living their humble lives. Yet you can't cast them willy nilly, since they cost your resource, which you don't have that much off, and that puts you in a disadvantage the more you deplete it. Other RPGs also have stuff like that of course, but Exalted first sprang to mind when I read what you wrote.

Too bad no cRPG developer decided trying to implement something like that, the only two recent games I could think off that let you design your own spells were Oblivion and Two Worlds 2, and they both sucked. Well, TW2 magic system had huge potential and I still remove every expansion or DLC from inventory just to check out what new spells you can create. Guess devs are too scared to bring something that hardcore into a game nowadays, considering that noone wants to have power with drawbacks. Doesn't fit the whole Awesomebutton notion.

 

[Wavinator]

I like the idea, though I'm not sure about the implementation. The essence of mystery seems to be the hidden, yet players need to be able to understand and master a system to use it well. I wonder if it would work to combine hand crafted lore and quests with strong randomization of how the magic system actually functions? Procedurally generate costs, requirements and most of all status effects (positive and negative) as well as when they kick in. Maybe you'd play through once and heavy magic use would slowly drain the land of life (ala Darksun); the next weaken the barriers between this world and the next, effectively creating spawn points for demons and elementals; the next somehow spread misfortune and chaos through random, seemingly natural calamities.


If magic worked like this it wouldn't be a matter of artificially being held back. The barrier and risks (especially if save scumming were somehow discouraged) would be built into the gameplay. Find an old ring at the bottom of the river that gives you strange shivers and longing to touch it's "precious" surface all the time? Maybe better check it out before just putting it on... that is if you can trust the people you'd have to show it to. And if that same ring had completely different effects the next game you're not just going to wiki it-- at least not as easily until the random ranges were studied and posted.

Of course I can also see a lot of metagaming as a weakness with this idea, not to mention balance.

 

[Dark Elf]

Magic should be powerful and pretty much the only way to get out of seemingly impossible situations (the game should be played in Ironman mode, meaning that you would risk it), but magic should be volatile. I like what you say about procedurally generated costs for magic - why not have randomised cost? The cost of using Spell X would be a random number between 5-12 points, and should you use more than 30 points, you risk suffering adverse effects. The world should be dangerous, magic should be tempting, but so rare that you easily fall into the trap of using too much magic and end your adventure as a gibbering Chaos Spawn.

 

[Johannes]

I'd just want more games where the mages are really awesome and constantly nuke everything that opposes them, which is mostly other mages. Just take the idea of being able to hurl fireballs and shit, then think what kind of political/economical structure would follow.

Geneforge did it in the setting, but the combat was not properly geared for complex Shaper vs Shaper battles.


Game where you control one mage (plus possible retinue of expendable weak commoners/summons), have a huge spell list of all kinds of spells imaginable (including noncombat stuff), and encounters consist of mostly blasting other such mages and their entourages.

 

[Wavinator]

Magic should be powerful and pretty much the only way to get out of seemingly impossible situations (the game should be played in Ironman mode, meaning that you would risk it), but magic should be volatile. I like what you say about procedurally generated costs for magic - why not have randomised cost? The cost of using Spell X would be a random number between 5-12 points, and should you use more than 30 points, you risk suffering adverse effects. The world should be dangerous, magic should be tempting, but so rare that you easily fall into the trap of using too much magic and end your adventure as a gibbering Chaos Spawn.

Ironman mode yes, because it will automatically attract players with a certain mentality-- namely those who can hack the harsh realities of roguelike gameplay. I *think* you're less apt to get players bitching about the RNG and more into feeling out the limits of the system.

Variable costs would be sweet, especially if they scaled with the power of the spell and the adverse effects scaled as well. If I were doing something like this I'd try to make a range of negative effects you'd have to discover with use but which wouldn't necessarily be laid out as integers. You'd never see a mana bar, but rather it would be up to you to notice that as you continuously cast fireball you look more and more ashen (or it's described in flavor text for a more old school approach). Casting wouldn't tell you the spell costs X points, you'd have to observe the effects based on whatever choices the game gave you for how you cast spells.

I don't know if that's the best way to do it but it feels like every effort should be made to strike a balance between the player being able to control what magic does and having to respect the fact that magic is dangerous and somewhat unpredictable.

 

[Norfleet]

Games typically treat magic as simply a type of technolergy or upgrade. Rarely is it ever actually MAGICAL, merely just a different type of gun that shoots some kind of ammo, be they spell slots or mana. Being that the setting typically does not have guns, at some point either the mage winds up overpowered, or magic is a flashy way to do the same thing as hitting it with your axe.

Typically, mages are then made into a class, and impaired by their inability to do normal-people things to "balance". Of course, this matches none of the source material: Gandalf had no problems swinging a sword, and tended to do so instead of lobbing fireballs everywhere. Gandalf didn't lob ANY fireballs. You might wonder if he was an actual wizard at all, in comparison. There's gotta be some kind of thematic reason why Gandalf fireballed a grand total of zero orcs, right? Maybe the solution is just to make magic non-overt. No fireballs, lightning bolts, and other obvious stuff.

 

[laclongquan]

The whole problem is game designer sucks at applying magic to a real world setting . They can never fit it properly.

For example, the fireball spell. It's an offensive spell, right? Pretty low level. With a Fireball, not castle is safe. You can cast Protection against fire/magic on the gate or some section of the wall but you can never cast in on the whole wall. And 3 fireballs will make a door in any place without protection.

Yet the big city still contain big honking wall encircle the city.

If you want to make magic, try to imagine a SF setting in far future, and use the magic fantasy language to describe the thing. That way work better.

 

[Johannes]

Well, it depends on the exacts of the fireball if it's able to bring down stone walls any more than setting up a bonfire next to the wall would.
But other than that yes, almost no fantasy setting tries to model at all what effect all this crazy shit would have on society. Resurrection stuff usually being the worst offender.

Then again mighty non-magical warriors who can take on dozens of ordinary soldiers and win, don't make much sense either.

 

[Destroid]

...if it was all a matter of syllables and gestures, everyone would learn it eventually.

This is not a very logical line of reasoning. For one, look around you, is everyone a highly educated and skilled person? And for two, you could make the same argument that any technology would eventually get invented so it's stupid to have a fantasy game without industrialisation and cars.

 

[Ulminati]

Eberron did a pretty good attempt at it while staying within d&d 3.5 rules. Magic is common and everyday, with tons of NPC magewrights cranking out useful magic items for non-adventurers.

 

[Whisper]

In dark heart of uukrul divine magic is not 100% to work, it can not only fail (especially if low-level cleric asks for powerful spell) but god can actually punish cleric who asks too much and too often.


Also in Realms of Arcania magic can backfire, from mage losing all mana to summoning of powerful daemon who takes mage to another dimension.

 

[laclongquan]

...if it was all a matter of syllables and gestures, everyone would learn it eventually.

This is not a very logical line of reasoning. For one, look around you, is everyone a highly educated and skilled person? And for two, you could make the same argument that any technology would eventually get invented so it's stupid to have a fantasy game without industrialisation and cars.

A magic civilization without transportation magic to move bulk goods over large distance? Or many people?

At least the ancient people know enough to imagine flying carpet. Morrowind? Not a damn applicable moving platform to move large number goods or people over the distance in any town mage's guild. DnD? Not a damn magical transportation, period. If you have haste, you could have cast haste on your horse to run very fast on the road connecting major towns. Or strength on beasts of burden to move stuff.

EDIT: it's why I approve of Age of Decadence. It's a SF setting in a post apocalyptic world, with the disguise of magical fantasy. People just naturally feel easier to make a logical SF world.

Authors these days, they dont know how to do a logical fantasy world. There're a few exception, like Brandon Sanderson, but not much more.

 

[lmbarns]

I like my system where the player can get "artifacts" during the game that allow magic. I went with elemental runestones(air, fire, water, earth), but it could be anything, reagent/ingredient based, schools of magic, "powers" from gods, etc.

Even if the player is a knight or melee based char, depending on what runestones they possess determines the spells they can cast by putting forth combinations of runes.

1 runestone allows 1 spell [1], 2 runestones allows 3 spells [1, 2, 1+2] while having 4 runestones allows 15 spells [1, 2, 3, 4, 1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 2+3, etc.etc.etc.]

You can then use the item in their hand as a modifier. So having a stronger staff or higher rank sword increases the output damage, or activates a completely different spell with the same combination of inputs but a different weapon/staff modifier....in addition to any stat/skill modifiers you want to include for damage calculations. A second hotbar where they can save 3-4 "favorite" spell combos to "hotkey" would be really nice. (maybe pure mage characters get an extra slot or two)

 

[Wavinator]

Well, it depends on the exacts of the fireball if it's able to bring down stone walls any more than setting up a bonfire next to the wall would.
But other than that yes, almost no fantasy setting tries to model at all what effect all this crazy shit would have on society. Resurrection stuff usually being the worst offender.

Then again mighty non-magical warriors who can take on dozens of ordinary soldiers and win, don't make much sense either.

This brought to mind a friend's complaint about how dragons are implemented in a lot of video games. He compares even a stupid, non-magical dragon that can breathe fire to an AC-130 or strategic bomber and points out tons of inconsistencies with a traditional medieval world: Villages made of wooden buildings? Castles that are open to the sky? Dragons that conveniently land so you can kill them rather than strafing you or, as some predatory birds do, scooping you up and dropping you from hundreds of feet? o_O

 

[Wavinator]

A magic civilization without transportation magic to move bulk goods over large distance? Or many people?

At least the ancient people know enough to imagine flying carpet. Morrowind? Not a damn applicable moving platform to move large number goods or people over the distance in any town mage's guild. DnD? Not a damn magical transportation, period. If you have haste, you could have cast haste on your horse to run very fast on the road connecting major towns. Or strength on beasts of burden to move stuff.

This is an example of one of those interesting collisions between logical world building and presenting a playable RPG world with recognizable, compelling archetypes. RPGs so often seem to need a kind of civilization which exists side-by-side with anarchy, possibly because of the adventurous roles players tend to gravitate towards. There can't be calling in the marines, roadside assistance, medi-vac or even cell phones lest you somehow rob the player of glory. So the available archetypes, especially with RPGs being so predominated with combat, are those surrounding independence where you get to be your own law.

I point this out because it informs why the worlds so often look the way they do. I'm not sure it's only lack of world builder skill and unwillingness / inability to extrapolate (which is a tough skill, granted). But I think the worlds look the way they do because of the roles players want to play and the primary gameplay that supports those roles.

Take cities, for instance: Cities might frequently be these organized counterpoints to anarchy, acting functionally as hubs for protection, missions, shopping, training, etc. But in most RPGs they're not the core of the world. Even when action is located in cities (say like in Fallout or Deus Ex, for example) the real action seems to take place in disorganized, anarchic pockets (sewers, slums) within the city. Or else factions exist that can make swaths of the city into the equivalent of wilderness, say if you attack guards or break laws. And this is all inside of a world that, save for plot, is pretty stagnant.

Waving aside the tech limits of lots of large, moving objects in a game world, I really wonder what a game would look like if it was a logically built magical world. Does it effectively turn into our world with different clothes? Would you come across cities swamped with magic carpet traffic jams? Would your explorations into a creepy ruin be backlit by a highway of hasted messengers? Would you look up from a dark forest and see flocks of levitating mages going at it with lightning and fireballs far overhead?

In one sense I think that'd be damn cool. But what would happen to the wilderness and the dangerous, independent gameplay RPGs seem to require? Arguments about being something other than the Chosen One aside, I can imagine really feeling like an also ran, subject to the same kinds of downward, conformist pressures modern society-- with its needs to limit and balance the powers and passions of quarreling (and in this case potentially fireball wielding) people-- would logically have. I mean it's for good reason that I can't walk around in the modern world with a bazooka or vials of nerve gas, and if I did the state would act to stomp me even if there were nothing more than militia in the world equally equipped as me.

I don't think it's impossible to present a world that's both logical and fantastical, but I do wonder if the result ends up being something that players won't have the same degree of effect and control over.

 

[Baron]

Magic spells should be obtained by eating a fallen sorceror. And I don't mean a well fried ear or crumbing a piece of his thigh, I mean eat the whole damn shaman, head and all. That's what cauldrons are for and the jars of exotic condiments. Most wizards live in caves in remote areas and surround themselves with deadly traps. Fear of being eaten and having your magic stolen.

Need a Skyrim mod. Love playing Necromancers but you rarely get the horrified expressions from the NPCs you probably deserve.

 

[eric__s]

I was thinking earlier today about how magic should require tremendous personal sacrifice and pain and I thought up this system where wizards have to hurt themselves in order to cast spells. The strength of the spell is determined by the amount of pain that a wizard inflicts on himself, so just cutting yourself wouldn't do much, but plunging a knife into your guts and disemboweling yourself could save your group at the cost of potentially dying. I'm sure the idea has been explored before, but I'm not aware of any games that do it. I sort of like it because it means magic is used by people predisposed to masochism/self-inflicted pain/mental illness instead of the tired old Merlin stereotype and makes magic more dangerous and risky - if the chance of death is proportional to the strength of your spell, it limits how often magic is used. You could gauge a wizard's relative strength by how mangled and scarred they are.

Gouge out your eyes to kill someone.

I could see this system working as a part of yours. Maybe the god of self-flagellation demands that you hurt yourself in order prove your devotion, or maybe violence is the only way to communicate with gods. That would be cool.

Magic spells should be obtained by eating a fallen sorceror. And I don't mean a well fried ear or crumbing a piece of his thigh, I mean eat the whole damn shaman, head and all. That's what cauldrons are for and the jars of exotic condiments. Most wizards live in caves in remote areas and surround themselves with deadly traps. Fear of being eaten and having your magic stolen.

This is cool. I've always liked the idea of absorbing power through cannibalism. Kind of reminds me of the Highlander.

 

[laclongquan]

Occam's Razor: the easiest explanation is most often the truest

Never ascribe something to malice if incompetency will do.

And in this case, it's the incompetency of game developers who want the easy way of fantasy game world, not the correct way of doing it.

It's not that they cant do it. Septerra Core remains the biggest example of a SF setting couched in magic term. And it's very coherent, logical in the way an well-built world can be.

 

[laclongquan]

There's a HP-cost spell in Diablo if I remember correctly.

Or Final Fantasy 8, where magic can only be used if you equip Guardian Force. And to equip GF, you have to sacrifice a portion of your brain mental storage, ie your memory is sacrificed.

 

[Whisper]

I was thinking earlier today about how magic should require tremendous personal sacrifice and pain and I thought up this system where wizards have to hurt themselves in order to cast spells. The strength of the spell is determined by the amount of pain that a wizard inflicts on himself, so just cutting yourself wouldn't do much, but plunging a knife into your guts and disemboweling yourself could save your group at the cost of potentially dying. I'm sure the idea has been explored before, but I'm not aware of any games that do it. I sort of like it because it means magic is used by people predisposed to masochism/self-inflicted pain/mental illness instead of the tired old Merlin stereotype and makes magic more dangerous and risky - if the chance of death is proportional to the strength of your spell, it limits how often magic is used. You could gauge a wizard's relative strength by how mangled and scarred they are.

Gouge out your eyes to kill someone.

I could see this system working as a part of yours. Maybe the god of self-flagellation demands that you hurt yourself in order prove your devotion, or maybe violence is the only way to communicate with gods. That would be cool.

Magic spells should be obtained by eating a fallen sorceror. And I don't mean a well fried ear or crumbing a piece of his thigh, I mean eat the whole damn shaman, head and all. That's what cauldrons are for and the jars of exotic condiments. Most wizards live in caves in remote areas and surround themselves with deadly traps. Fear of being eaten and having your magic stolen.

This is cool. I've always liked the idea of absorbing power through cannibalism. Kind of reminds me of the Highlander.

Betrayal at Krondor.
Blood magic in DA:O.

Over 9000 other games, check Cast from HP on tvtropes.org

 

[eric__s]

I was thinking earlier today about how magic should require tremendous personal sacrifice and pain and I thought up this system where wizards have to hurt themselves in order to cast spells. The strength of the spell is determined by the amount of pain that a wizard inflicts on himself, so just cutting yourself wouldn't do much, but plunging a knife into your guts and disemboweling yourself could save your group at the cost of potentially dying. I'm sure the idea has been explored before, but I'm not aware of any games that do it. I sort of like it because it means magic is used by people predisposed to masochism/self-inflicted pain/mental illness instead of the tired old Merlin stereotype and makes magic more dangerous and risky - if the chance of death is proportional to the strength of your spell, it limits how often magic is used. You could gauge a wizard's relative strength by how mangled and scarred they are.

Gouge out your eyes to kill someone.

I could see this system working as a part of yours. Maybe the god of self-flagellation demands that you hurt yourself in order prove your devotion, or maybe violence is the only way to communicate with gods. That would be cool.

Magic spells should be obtained by eating a fallen sorceror. And I don't mean a well fried ear or crumbing a piece of his thigh, I mean eat the whole damn shaman, head and all. That's what cauldrons are for and the jars of exotic condiments. Most wizards live in caves in remote areas and surround themselves with deadly traps. Fear of being eaten and having your magic stolen.

This is cool. I've always liked the idea of absorbing power through cannibalism. Kind of reminds me of the Highlander.

Betrayal at Krondor.
Blood magic in DA:O.

Over 9000 other games, check Cast from HP on tvtropes.org

Yeah, I'm aware of games that require some sort of physical investment to cast spells but casting spells from hit points doesn't really get at what I'm talking about. Crippling yourself, ripping out your guts, cutting off fingers, maiming limbs - serious, permanent injuries aren't really expressed through hit points. It requires some sort of injury system, maybe like the one in Fallout but far more complex, and it would be cool if this also had some mental repercussions as well. Wizards need to become more decrepit and broken as they use magic; this isn't something that can be conveyed through losing hit points, which come back as soon as you rest.

Maybe the mental component is loss of control over your character to represent going insane. In the beginning you can choose how you hurt yourself, so you start with smaller, less serious injuries, but as your character continues to use magic, you lose the ability to choose how you hurt yourself, leading to much greater risk and chance of death. Or maybe the character casts spells without your control because they're addicted to magic. There could be a variety of psychoses to represent insanity.

Wizards need to be crazy people. If they don't start crazy, they become crazy.

 

[Whisper]

Yeah, I'm aware of games that require some sort of physical investment to cast spells but casting spells from hit points doesn't really get at what I'm talking about. Crippling yourself, ripping out your guts, cutting off fingers, maiming limbs - serious, permanent injuries aren't really expressed through hit points. It requires some sort of injury system, maybe like the one in Fallout but far more complex, and it would be cool if this also had some mental repercussions as well. Wizards need to become more decrepit and broken as they use magic; this isn't something that can be conveyed through losing hit points, which come back as soon as you rest.

Maybe the mental component is loss of control over your character to represent going insane. In the beginning you can choose how you hurt yourself, so you start with smaller, less serious injuries, but as your character continues to use magic, you lose the ability to choose how you hurt yourself, leading to much greater risk and chance of death. Or maybe the character casts spells without your control because they're addicted to magic. There could be a variety of psychoses to represent insanity.

Wizards need to be crazy people. If they don't start crazy, they become crazy.

Realms of Arcania does count?
Spells have chance to have critical miss - and mages can lose some stats permanently (amoung other effects).

Or Aleshar World of ice (one of best RPG i've played, but its not popular ofc) where one of most common deaths for mage is heart attack because of too much casting too often/or too powerful magic.

 

[Excidium]

No, save RPG magic by not making it some boring shit.