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Scorpia and Baldur's Gate, a discussion from 2006

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aweigh

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going from turn-based to RTwP is akin to the change from the use of painstaking miniature and model work expertly blended in painted matte composite photography in older films to the cartoonish CGI work of today's films.

i.e. one can absolutely draw parallels where dumbing down in both industries clearly began.

Any game that is made using a system that is designed to appease the General Audience is by default a bad game because it is not coming from the artistic heart of the creators but rather it is being made as commercial product only.

For example the creators of Wizardry 1 refused to release commercially for over 1 year because they insisted on tweaking the game balance until it was perfect even though the game was ready for release. They stuck to their guns and the industry benefitted.
 
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Which is why I said the campaign would be built from the ground up with TB in mind, resulting in different combat encounter design and area/dungeon design.

No one really knows for sure how a TB Baldur's Gate would have been received because it wasn't made; it's just a general consensus Codex assumption that TB would not sell like RTwP. Fallout sold quite well despite being TB and employing an unknown ruleset. BG is D&D in the Forgotten Realms...

One that I share. BG era casualites wouldn't tolerate that amount of gameplay feedback bottlenecked by the turns. One advantage of the RTwP in BG is that you can totally afford to not pay any attention to what is going until such time that you need to and you get to learn the ropes with minimal investment and plenty of room for error. It is hard to be frustrated on a feedback level.

As for a "campaign built from the ground up with TB in mind, resulting in different combat encounter design and area/dungeon design", that is a fantasy of a whole different game, practically irrelevant to BG at all.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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As for a "campaign built from the ground up with TB in mind, resulting in different combat encounter design and area/dungeon design", that is a fantasy of a whole different game, practically irrelevant to BG at all.

Except we are talking about the seminal RPG in a series using a proprietary engine over which BioWare exercised full control. This means they were free to choose between an array of combat systems. How is that not relevant to BG?

EDIT- I just recalled something.. the Infinity Engine was originally gonna be for a BioWare RTS (Battleground Infinity), so that's maybe a major reason why they decided to roll with RTwP.

Anyway, doesn't change the fact that RTwP is an abomination. You blame the bottlenecks of TB and ignore the erratic and frequent spacebar tapping associated with RTwP. I find that a lil' odd.
 
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mindx2

Codex Roaming East Coast Reporter
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Codex 2012 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire RPG Wokedex Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
If that vampire chick cover is april 99's issue (no. 177), then that same issue has the Scorpia guide to character building in BG1. http://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/index.php?year=1999&pub=2&id=177

Bite me!

Suck down 3 horror games.

I laughed.

You should read the letters section of the next 1-3 months' issues.
Man, I forgot how many advertising pages were crammed into each issue. Also, so many of the same "controversial" issues are still around today from the "sexist" vampire cover to violence in video games... nothing has changed. CGW was pretty darn good back in the day just from my own nostalgic memory and perusing some of those issues.
 

A horse of course

Guest
If that vampire chick cover is april 99's issue (no. 177), then that same issue has the Scorpia guide to character building in BG1. http://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/index.php?year=1999&pub=2&id=177

Bite me!

Suck down 3 horror games.

I laughed.

You should read the letters section of the next 1-3 months' issues.
Man, I forgot how many advertising pages were crammed into each issue. Also, so many of the same "controversial" issues are still around today from the "sexist" vampire cover to violence in video games... nothing has changed. CGW was pretty darn good back in the day just from my own nostalgic memory and perusing some of those issues.

Part of it is the demographic. I believe the magazine specifically refuted some of the complaints by stating that, to their knowledge, most readers were men in their 30s, and that the image wasn't much racier than the covers of lifestyle magazines. There were also a few letters complaining about the magazine's "satanist" undertones or something to that effect :lol:
 

Perkel

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Missed completely this thread. Read first page.

She seems like me. She loves actual R in RPG problem is that most of the games seems to actually don't give a fuck about it.

So when she criticizes Fallout 2 RNG people go apeshit. Funny thing is that i also did criticize it back then as well as now. Sure more different encounters = good but getting 6 big radscorpions at start of the game is fuck bad. Especially if you try to play like me ironman.

I found it amusing that i forgot that i also didn't like reuse of main plot in Fallout 2 and found it dumb back then. Nostalgia is a bitch.

Also lel powergamers. You should multiclass in BG1 ! Sure if you want to spend few hours farming ankhegs for exp if you play normally possibly ironman you want as little combat as possible thus multiclassing is the worst option from all because you will be quickly underleveled compared to rest of the crew.

Either way. I agree she would fit right in here.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,427
People should use this

"RANDOM.ORG offers true random numbers to anyone on the Internet. The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs."

Tr\/e randomness!

*hits generate*
*gets 100 twice in a row*

THIS IS FUCKING BULLSHIT, RNG IS BROKEN, DEVELOPERS ARE SHITHEADS.

Really, it all turned out as expected.
 
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aweigh

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As for the rampant sexism in the video game industry... once again I continue to draw yet another parallel to Old Hollywood; it has taken the film industry 10 full decades (1920 - 2020) to reach the point where it is today and today is still not a good enough place for female actresses, directors or photographers or writers. It is still very much a male-dominated industry yet it is undeniable that there has been a lot of progress towards equal-opportunity in the past 7 decades of commercial film.

And keep in mind: films get the benefit of being considered culturally important.

The video game industry is barely, and I literally mean barely in its 3rd decade of full-blown commercial industry, and it is this very infancy coupled with the fact that it is battling the very same struggle for cultural relevance that the talkies and the moving-picture shows struggled with in the 1900's and 1910's and the better part of the 1920's and 1930's.

I would say, that just like with film, we already have our most important video games of historical significance: games like Wizardry, Doom, Mario, etc. Basically any video game that jump-started a genre and whose system mechanics have yet to be innovated upon. The new Doom, for example, is mechanically identical to the first Doom video game and the only difference is in the production values tied up in graphics and sound.

Does that sound in any way similar to what is the norm for modern day movies? It should. Movies like It Follows, for example, are a brilliant, brilliant example of how to do a perfect thriller/horror/psychologically-driven film yet it is absolutely nothing that was not done 50 years ago by Hitchcock. Same old bullshit with a new coat of paint.

A game like Baldur's Gate was mired in both artistic and in technical problems from the very beginning as it was a game that was shoe-horned on top of an already pre-existing system design that was deemed to be commercially unfit (or technically unfit) for release to the General Audience for whatever reason (I don't pretend to know what those reasons were); the BioWare doctors, like any good Hollywood entrepreneur, seized upon the chance to salvage the artistic heart of the video game they wanted to do (Baldur's Gate) by vying for and eventually appropriating the existing tech-engine of the RTS game that had been cancelled.

So right off the bat we have one huge problem with the fact that the very genesis of the video game Baldur's Gate was one of pure artistic compromise for the General Audience. There are a lot of people whom would argue that such things are necessary, as "at least this way we got to play it!".

To those people I say: you are wrong. There is no reason why anything needs to be made and released and if you feel that way then it is because of the conditioning inflicted on you by the decades of marketing that have saturated your ability to discern between something legitimately and technically good, and perhaps even artistically sound as well; but nothing is necessary.

As a video game player for over 30+ years I say give me a There Will Be Blood, give me a Serpico, or give me nothing at all. Give me Wizardry 1, give me Zelda 1, give me Fallout 1, or give me nothing at all.
 

pippin

Guest
If that vampire chick cover is april 99's issue (no. 177), then that same issue has the Scorpia guide to character building in BG1. http://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/index.php?year=1999&pub=2&id=177

Bite me!

Suck down 3 horror games.

I laughed.

You should read the letters section of the next 1-3 months' issues.
Man, I forgot how many advertising pages were crammed into each issue. Also, so many of the same "controversial" issues are still around today from the "sexist" vampire cover to violence in video games... nothing has changed. CGW was pretty darn good back in the day just from my own nostalgic memory and perusing some of those issues.

Back then most of that commentary was taken as the pseudo intellectual drivel needed to appear as a relevant magazine, in my opinion."I write for a gaming magazine" doesn't sound particularly exciting.... And maybe you have that job as a window into other job opportunities, hopefully more serious ones.
 

A horse of course

Guest
There was a lot of industry talk in old CGWs, ranging from CD-ROM adventure market to game vs movie insurance.
 

mindx2

Codex Roaming East Coast Reporter
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Codex 2012 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire RPG Wokedex Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The new Doom, for example, is mechanically identical to the first Doom video game and the only difference is in the production values tied up in graphics and sound.

yeah right.jpg
 

Theldaran

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It's all simpler than that, Baldur's Gate was a top game when it was released. I agree it had a more general audience, but that's not synonymous with "sinking the CRPG genre".

The problem arose when Bioware wanted to constantly revisit BG from KOTOR and NWN onwards, recycling ideas, concepts etc. But never offering something really fresh. As those games were commercially successful, everyone looked up to that model, and wanted a piece of the pie (huh, Beamdog?). So, in a way, they really sunk the genre in the long run.

They even went the whole way of "making a BG successor" (Dragon Age Origins), and worse, they passed the sickness to others, like Obsidian with Pillars of Eternity.

What the genre needs, however, is more ventures like BG to keep it fresh. Maybe The Witcher 3 was a paradigm shift, I don't know. We can take the new Zelda as an indication that Skyrim-like games are here to stay, though. But, as I say, clones and lookalikes may be enjoyable but are not the real thing.
 
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Except we are talking about the seminal RPG in a series using a proprietary engine over which BioWare exercised full control. This means they were free to choose between an array of combat systems. How is that not relevant to BG?

EDIT- I just recalled something.. the Infinity Engine was originally gonna be for a BioWare RTS (Battleground Infinity), so that's maybe a major reason why they decided to roll with RTwP.

Anyway, doesn't change the fact that RTwP is an abomination. You blame the bottlenecks of TB and ignore the erratic and frequent spacebar tapping associated with RTwP. I find that a lil' odd.

It's not a blame, it is how casualites see it. Having to stop and think and pick an option for the game to proceed at all when there are more than 2 options at any given time and nothing else going on at the same time when with RTwP, things just happen and the game keeps going. Otherwise I don't like RTwP but I can see it can be enjoyable. BG2 did good.
 
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aweigh

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i can't see a single advantage to making an RPG that is not turn-based.

the idea of taking turns in order to take stock of all of your options and utilizing strategy seeming "boring" is actually not specific to videos games at all; you need only look at how many people would rather play hungry hungry hippos than chess.

i don't think there is any possibility of an RPG being in any way significant if it is not turn-based. I can see it being entertaining, and I certainly see it being a good game, but it will always be a good game that would've been better if it had been turn-based from initial design.

there's not really any ifs, and's or but's about that simple fact. the second you begin designing your RPG with a non-turn-based system, then congratulations you have just begun work on an RPG that is by default hamstrung in its complexity of design.

EDIT: alternatively there are also approaches which can be said to be a "system that appropriates all of the qualities of a turn-based system". One such example, albeit a deeply flawed one, is the RTwP take of Pillars of Eternity. It is completely unlike any other RTwP game and is basically the diametric opposite of the way one would play Baldur's Gate. It is a flawed RTwP system that wants very, very badly to have been turn-based, and the game benefitted for it. It would have benefitted even more if it had been turn-based.
 
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Daggerfall, Gothic 1/2, Bloodlines, Deus Ex, FNV.

Great games with a lot of significance to their design.

aweigh, are you coming down with alzheimer's or something on us, man, what's this nonsense?
 
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Zed Duke of Banville

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i don't think there is any possibility of an RPG being in any way significant if it is not turn-based.
If you had ever played Dungeon Master, you wouldn't be engaging in such hyperbolic silliness. Plus Chaos Strikes Back, UU: The Stygian Abyss, Daggerfall, Planescape: Torment, Morrowind, the Souls series (albeit borderline RPGs), and Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen. With the notable exception of PS:T, which was unfortunately saddled with Bioware's execrable RTwP system, not only would none of these games have benefited from being turn-based, but it would have invalidated their entire design.
 
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aweigh

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What is Dungeon Master but a casualized take on tile-based dungeoneering using a party of adventurers?

I have previously stated my views on the detrimental effect that pixel-hunt style "puzzles", a la Adventure Games, can have on a dungeon crawler. The type of "puzzles" and the type of real-time combat in games such as Dungeon Master are both non-RPG elements that were taken from other genres and serve the game in no particularly deep way.

Utilizing a blobber template with anything less than turn-based is simply catering to simpletons.

A lot of the games in your list, such as Daggerfall, the Souls series, Morrowind, Dragon's Dogma, and yes, Dungeon Master as well are all games that are simply not really worth playing.
 

felipepepe

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No offense, but that seems like typical extremism of the newly converted... 6 months ago games like Wizardry were "half-RPGs", now they are the only real ones?
 

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