"Second best stealth game after Thief" is actually a pretty good topic for a thread.

[dnf]

Man, I honestly have my doubts about Thief. I remember playing it and rage quitting after a ZOMBIES stage.

ZOMBIES should never go with stealth games.

It's because people like you that made Thief 2 turn out to be what it is. I hope a haunt rapes you.

 

[Infinitron]

Still, Thief is very much low fantasy. You won't see dragons and orcs and shit.

To me, the most incongruently fantastic element in the Thief games was the Hammerite and Mechanist priests and their spellcasting. It didn't seem like the lore was really supposed to support those guys being able to throw magic missiles. Especially the Mechanists.

 

[skacky]

Still, Thief is very much low fantasy. You won't see dragons and orcs and shit.

To me, the most incongruently fantastic element in the Thief games was the Hammerite and Mechanist priests and their spellcasting. It didn't seem like the lore was really supposed to support those guys being able to throw magic missiles. Especially the Mechanists.

Well, magic is an established source of power in Thief so it never bothered me. The Hammers and Mechanists are pretty much masters at it, I mean even the streetlamps use magic to function and these are most probably Hammerite technology. Classic fantasy would associate magic with the Pagans, but I really like the fact that both of them actually use magic in Thief, albeit differently. And then there's of course the Hand Brotherhood. Not to mention the Mechanists use magical masks to convert people into servants.

 

[Silva]

Oh fuck, stop talking. I rather be ignorant of this fantastic shit.

Or better, I will interpret them as highly advanced technology. Yes. This.

 

[Infinitron]

I mean even the streetlamps use magic to function and these are most probably Hammerite technology.

Do they? I always thought it was all tech.

Not to mention the Mechanists use magical masks to convert people into servants.

Yeah, but that's crazy scavenged Precursor tech.

 

[skacky]

I mean even the streetlamps use magic to function and these are most probably Hammerite technology.

Do they? I always thought it was all tech.

I'm pretty sure they use magic as a base, yeah. It always seemed impossible to me that the glowball at the top of these contraptions is technology. Some of the streetlamps and other lights don't use them though, but I don't know why. This is never explained in the game, and Thief 3 ditched these glowball-streetlamps altogether as far as I know. There's also these collector towers that look very magical too.

Not to mention the Mechanists use magical masks to convert people into servants.

Yeah, but that's crazy scavenged Precursor tech.

Yup, but Karras must have previous knowledge of that, which tells me that he more than welcomes magic when it serves his purposes. I still don't really know how the bots are supposed to work either. They use steam, but this alone cannot make them work the way they do.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm pretty sure they use magic as a base, yeah. It always seemed impossible to me that the glowball at the top of these contraptions is technology.

Always figured it was a Tesla plasma globe type thing

 

[DefJam101]

If the fantastic elements in Thief strike you as ridiculous you must be annoyed as shit playing almost every computer game ever

 

[Roguey]

I don't know why people hate the undead levels in thief so much, haunts and ghost behave like normal guards but more powerful and zombies are slow and dumb but not so common and you can avoid all of them as easy as any guard.

Randy Smith's levels are really awful. The other zombie levels are fine, but his are incompetently executed.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

I never understood all the hatred towards zombies in thief. In my first playthrough, the second level, cragscleft prison, my first reaction was to blackjack the 1st zombie. I had the habit of blackjacking everyone back then, even burricks. Since he wouldn't be knocked out, I tried the sword... zombie falls. Then, I just had to be careful to not reanimate them, which was not too hard. There was the holy water too. Only at the bonehoard I discovered that I could banish them with fire arrows. But other than that, i think zombies are a nuissance only to players that like to blackjack everyone so the levels become free of enemies.

I like thief 1 and 2 on the same level, since I played through both of them from start to finish as one big game. I can't really make a significant distinction between the two. So, you should start with the first and never stop playing ever.

 

[dnf]

I don't know why people hate the undead levels in thief so much, haunts and ghost behave like normal guards but more powerful and zombies are slow and dumb but not so common and you can avoid all of them as easy as any guard.

Randy Smith's levels are really awful. The other zombie levels are fine, but his are incompetently executed.

What levels with Randy you are talking about. One leve with zombiesl that i dislike is the haunted cathedral(not return to cathedral)

 

[Roguey]

What levels with Randy you are talking about. One leve with zombiesl that i dislike is the haunted cathedral(not return to cathedral)

He did both Cathedral levels.

 

[skacky]

And Escape!, too. Funny, I consider his levels to be the very best with Mike Ryan's.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't know why people hate the undead levels in thief so much, haunts and ghost behave like normal guards but more powerful and zombies are slow and dumb but not so common and you can avoid all of them as easy as any guard.

Randy Smith's levels are really awful. The other zombie levels are fine, but his are incompetently executed.

What did you think of the "zombie army" area of the Bonehoard?

 

[Silva]

Zombie Army ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPJnp4iHkc

"Prepare to get drenched.. in the sperm of the undead"

 

[Roguey]

What did you think of the "zombie army" area of the Bonehoard?

You could easily avoid them. The worst part of that level was the out-of-place platforming.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I like the second "Death to Spies" game. It's 3rd person but it plays alot like Commandos.

 

[bloodlover]

Deus Ex?

 

[Ninjerk]

Deus Ex?

Deus Ex is probably my favorite game of all time, but I can even say that the DX stealth system sucked.

 

[Roguey]

All right I have completed Thief II so I might as well dump my thoughts here.

Life of the Party is overrated. The only appeal I found was the novelty in running on rooftops and breaking into random homes. As a level, it felt too linear and the building at the end with the five floors of sameyness was boring. My favorite levels were Framed and Ambush. I particularly liked how the former made ghosting it one of its goals instead of being a self-imposed challenge.

The women on the team let me down this time. Terri Brosius's Trace the Courier was particularly disappointing in its lengthy linearity.

I'm sure hundreds of people before me have noted that having to play the same level twice in a row is ridiculous and stupid. I wonder if it was added mid-way through to make the game longer or if the levels they intended to add in Thief II Gold were originally there and had to be cut for time/quality issues. At least the stuff I looked up about the rerelease showed that LGS was just as disappointed in how it turned out.

Randy Smith's levels weren't as awful as his output in Thief. In fact none of the levels felt as bad as Haunted Cathedral/Return to Haunted Cathedral/Escape though Smith couldn't resist putting in a bunch of tedious errand-running bullshit into the the last level.

Whoever directed Stephen Russell's Karras voice botched it. A damn shame because his slightly-different robot voice sounds good.

I appreciated the increased gender inclusivity. Female guards were no doubt added because of feminist criticism.

Overall I'd say both games are thoroughly mediocre and I don't prefer one over the other; though at least 2 doesn't have Smith's trinity of shame. It appears to me that they get the attention they do because of art direction, the novelty of being something different (which mostly wore off with the first sequel), and of course nostalgia. There's just not much potential for discernible gameplay variety here. It's pretty telling how the sequel couldn't trounce its predecessor despite various gameplay improvements and additions. And then the third one became some console-limited mediocrity I'm not even going to bother with. When it comes to stealth games, stealth action is the way to go. I have no desire to revisit these games again, but I've played Deus Ex, Hitman: Blood Money, and Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven multiple times. Square Enix made the right call when they shifted their Thief into the stealth action genre, however they made a big mistake when they decided to make it a sequel; they should have gone with Not-Dishonored.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Melee combat can feel bad in any perspective if it isn't executed properly. I don't think that the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

Lol, Sawyer. God of War is trash and plays worse than any number of much lower budget action titles.

And if I want to be extra anal, as a designer he should understand that both DMC1 and DMC4 are far superior in terms of exemplary melee combat than DMC3. I can get that a lot of people, even somewhat hardcore fans of the genre would prefer DMC3; it does a lot of things "right" for people. But a designer wunderkind like Sawyer should know better than to just pick the most popular title and deem it the best.

 

[Serious_Business]

A
Overall I'd say both games are thoroughly mediocre and I don't prefer one over the other

 

[Silva]

Overall I'd say both games are thoroughly mediocre and I don't prefer one over the other; though at least 2 doesn't have Smith's trinity of shame. It appears to me that they get the attention they do because of art direction, the novelty of being something different (which mostly wore off with the first sequel), and of course nostalgia. There's just not much potential for discernible gameplay variety here. It's pretty telling how the sequel couldn't trounce its predecessor despite various gameplay improvements and additions. And then the third one became some console-limited mediocrity I'm not even going to bother with. When it comes to stealth games, stealth action is the way to go. I have no desire to revisit these games again, but I've played Deus Ex, Hitman: Blood Money, and Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven multiple times. Square Enix made the right call when they shifted their Thief into the stealth action genre, however they made a big mistake when they decided to make it a sequel; they should have gone with Not-Dishonored.

Hmmm... Interesting.

1. Would you say the same about the direction Splinter Cell series went then ? I mean, from more slow paced "pure stealth" with the first 3 (SAR, Pandora, Chaos Theory) to a more "stealth action" with Double Agent, Conviction and Blacklist ?

2. Im not sure Hitman Blood Money fits the "stealth action" model any more than the "pure action" one. I mean, at least the way I remember playing it, most missions felt more of the slow paced, plannin ahead, type.

 

[dnf]

Melee combat can feel bad in any perspective if it isn't executed properly. I don't think that the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

Lol, Sawyer. God of War is trash and plays worse than any number of much lower budget action titles.

And if I want to be extra anal, as a designer he should understand that both DMC1 and DMC4 are far superior in terms of exemplary melee combat than DMC3. I can get that a lot of people, even somewhat hardcore fans of the genre would prefer DMC3; it does a lot of things "right" for people. But a designer wunderkind like Sawyer should know better than to just pick the most popular title and deem it the best.

Even worse, he puts Oblivion like it was a good first person brawler.

 

[tuluse]

When it comes to stealth games, stealth action is the way to go. I have no desire to revisit these games again, but I've played Deus Ex, Hitman: Blood Money, and Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven multiple times. Square Enix made the right call when they shifted their Thief into the stealth action genre, however they made a big mistake when they decided to make it a sequel; they should have gone with Not-Dishonored.

The problem with Thiaf is that they're breaking Sawyer's rule. The stealth isn't being made for people who enjoy stealth (or at least not Thief's brand of stealth).