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"Second best stealth game after Thief" is actually a pretty good topic for a thread.

Do you agree with the title of this thread?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 33.3%
  • No (recommend a better one)

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Kingcomrade

    Votes: 17 47.2%

  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .

Roguey

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1. Would you say the same about the direction Splinter Cell series went then ? I mean, from more slow paced "pure stealth" with the first 3 (SAR, Pandora, Chaos Theory) to a more "stealth action" with Double Agent, Conviction and Blacklist ?
Never played any of 'em but as I understand it Double Agent is shit because they dumbed down stealth and Chaos Theory is the best one.

2. Im not sure Hitman Blood Money fits the "stealth action" model any more than the "pure action" one. I mean, at least the way I remember playing it, most missions felt more of the slow paced, plannin ahead, type.
But it is a game about killin' people. There are a couple of mandatory shoot-outs too.

Even worse, he puts Oblivion like it was a good first person brawler.
It doesn't have much competition. Also

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/50...at-in-bloodlines-and-other-games/#entry881391
Josh said:
I think Bloodlines' combat is a lot worse than Oblivion's, personally.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm sure hundreds of people before me have noted that having to play the same level twice in a row is ridiculous and stupid. I wonder if it was added mid-way through to make the game longer or if the levels they intended to add in Thief II Gold were originally there and had to be cut for time/quality issues. At least the stuff I looked up about the rerelease showed that LGS was just as disappointed in how it turned out. :)

The thing about Thief 2 is that they wanted to make a bunch of "themed" missions. I mean, look at their names. Framing! Blackmail! Eavesdropping! And also casing a joint before robbing it.

They should have removed Casing, but I guess from their perspective that would have been removing a core feature.

But yes, there were originally supposed to be levels in between Casing and Masks.
 

Roguey

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The thing about Thief 2 is that they wanted to make a bunch of "themed" missions. I mean, look at their names. Framing! Blackmail! Eavesdropping! And also casing a joint before robbing it.

They should have removed Casing, but I guess from their perspective that would have been removing a core feature.
That's a strange thing to want because Garrett goes blindly/near-blindly into missions all the time (like the ones immediately preceding and following these two missions). It didn't feel necessary at all to map out the place first.

Hey, wait a minute. Don't you want to play Thief2X? http://www.thief2x.com/

You play a GIRL, so it's FEMINIST.
Not necessarily. Maybe later.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
That's a strange thing to want because Garrett goes blindly/near-blindly into missions all the time (like the ones immediately preceding and following these two missions). It didn't feel necessary at all to map out the place first.

I think the idea was that he had to get hold of the masks as quickly as possibly after the exhibit at Gervaisius' Manor began. It would have been interesting if the the following mission had a time limit.
 

Roguey

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So, can we agree Thiefs are overrated and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best stealth game there is ?
I would have to play it, but since Josh seems to think so, my answer would probably be yes.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So, can we agree Thiefs are overrated and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best stealth game there is ?
I would have to play it, but since Josh seems to think so, my answer would probably be yes.

Actually, since you seem to be a big fan of non-linearity (seeing as you've consistently expressed a dislike for the more linear missions in the Thief games) you might not like the Splinter Cell games.
 

Roguey

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Actually, since you seem to be a big fan of non-linearity (seeing as you've consistently expressed a dislike for the more linear missions in the Thief games) you might not like the Splinter Cell games.
Expectations play a part in that. Both of them start off with non-linear levels, so to jump from that to what is more or less a single line feels wrong. Plus Thief's gameplay doesn't have the breadth to support it, whereas it looks like Splinter Cell has more non-lethal combat tools.
 

DefJam101

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I think some people in this thread are making the mistake of looking at Thief's gameplay as a "stealth system," as if it's supposed to look really impressive on paper. The "system" of stealth in Thief is very simple. More complex than a lot of games, yes, but still simple. You hide in the shadows and observe guards and try not to move too fast on noisy surfaces at bad times. The game is good because its limited perspective (first-person), slow pace, detailed sound environment, interesting setting, and generally responsive movement and gameplay (or: why using Q and E is more fun than sticky cover leaning) add up to a satisfying experience.

The game is what you might call










































immersive






It sounds like dumb marketing speak but it's the case. Thief isn't a spergfest ultra-hardcore tactical burglary simulation where you plot points between semirandom guard patrols to optimize loot acquisition it's a fucking game where you pretend to be a guy in a cloak who steals shit
 

Roguey

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There is functionally no difference between leaning or viewing things from behind cover in third person. :M
 

DefJam101

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Not only is that completely incorrect from a gameplay perspective it's also not what I was talking about

edit: here's a hint in case this really is too difficult for you to understand: pressing space bar to jump and pressing F to vault up/over something when prompted are "functionally identical" if they allow you to reach the same set of places in the same amount of time, but one of them is fun and engaging while the other is fucking annoying and boring
 

Silva

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I think some people in this thread are making the mistake of looking at Thief's gameplay as a "stealth system," as if it's supposed to look really impressive on paper. The "system" of stealth in Thief is very simple. More complex than a lot of games, yes, but still simple. You hide in the shadows and observe guards and try not to move too fast on noisy surfaces at bad times. The game is good because its limited perspective (first-person), slow pace, detailed sound environment, interesting setting, and generally responsive movement and gameplay (or: why using Q and E is more fun than sticky cover leaning) add up to a satisfying experience.
I dont see how this is any different than 99% of the other stealth games out there, from from Mark of the Ninja to Metal Gear to Splinter Cell. Care to elaborate ?

edit: here's a hint in case this really is too difficult for you to understand: pressing space bar to jump and pressing F to vault up/over something when prompted are "functionally identical" if they allow you to reach the same set of places in the same amount of time, but one of them is fun and engaging while the other is fucking annoying and boring
I would say it depends. Having a whole system for farting just for noise distraction is idiotic. But having a whole system for Farting which interacts with a whole lot of other variants, from putting guards to sleep, to flamethworing guards, to producing chemical conoctoins etc, is acceptable.

In other words: the leaning system in Dishonored is moronic because its just there for you to see ahead without any risk of detection at all. (BTW, is Thief like this too ? I dont remember.. )
 

Cowboy Moment

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I almost feel bad for Roguey whenever Sawyer says something stupid, you can almost imagine steam coming out of her ears as she tries to resolve the contradicition.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
There is functionally no difference between leaning or viewing things from behind cover in third person. :M
1) It limits your vision more
2) You also had to have a shadow in Thief which meant more power in the hands of level designers
 

SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Actually 'semi-random' patrols are in in the form of a probability graph in the dark mod. They also do 'things' with the objects they pass near, like warming hands by the fire now. Obviously animation limited.
Just looking at the bugtracker there is also a surprising complexity on relationship systems, like greetings, status, alarms and stuff.
 

Silva

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Nobody answered my question: is Thief leaning like Dishonored, where you can lean with YOUR ENTIRE BODY and no one sees you ?


Leaning.+Found+on+videogames.memebase.com_2d087b_4182017.jpg
 

DefJam101

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Nobody answered my question: is Thief leaning like Dishonored, where you can lean with YOUR ENTIRE BODY and no one sees you ?
No, as was covered earlier in the thread. People then scrambled to try and make the game look popamole by saying that corners are shrouded in darkness and safe to lean around, which is frequently true, but not always the case. Peaking your head around a well-lit corner will alert any guard looking your way.
 

Lancehead

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So, can we agree Thiefs are overrated and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best stealth game there is ?
Generally, if your support in argument is Roguey, then you probably don't have much of an argument.
 

DalekFlay

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I just played the ambush level last night and leaning around corners got me constantly spotted.
 

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