Baldur's Gate Sensuki was right

[Grunker]

I really like Pillars of Eternity and to a lesser extend Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Both were among my favourites of the latest RPG generation (though not the favourite - that award goes to Blackguards for me).

However, they never got to full-on Baldur's Gate-levels of awesome for me, and I didn't really know why (story and companions are no explanation on their own, since I like these games first and foremost due to their gameplay).

Part of the reason was revealed to me when I played first PoE II and since Pathfinder: Kingmaker in their respective turn-based modes. Both games were suddenly way more enjoyable.

So maybe I had just moved on from RTwP? Maybe I just didn't like that anymore?

Well... no. Because I returned to Baldur's Gate and had a blast. The same for Icewind Dale, which is still an amazing game. The frantic, fast RTS-like gameplay was as fun as ever.

In comparison, PoE's and Pathfinder's RTwP-modes are slow, unwieldy things, which works actively against the core of the real time gameplay. Attacks of opportunity and slow movement speed - even when hasted - robs real time of its core appeal. On turn-based, Pillars is way more fun and so far, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has gone from an OK game for me to having a literal blast. On turn-based and Unfair, it might be one of my favourite games ever, and if PoE II's difficulty wasn't so low even on PotD, it would probably be too, even though its turn-based mode is less gracefully implemented. They're both sooooooo much better on turn-based.

The conclusion must thus be that Sensuki was right. Maybe not in every single autistic "waaaah PoE isn't like BG"-post, but certainly in the sperging he did on the movement and ~*feel*~ of BG and why combat in the IE-games was so fun.

If you're going to hamper movement and on-the-fly-control - if you're going to impose restrictions on how avatars interact with the map and each other - there's simply no reason for doing your game in real time.

 

[Butter]

I'm concerned for your chair if Kingmaker is causing you to have a literal blast.

 

[Darth Roxor]

PoE's RTWP is "slow and ponderous"



Those would be the last two words I'd use to describe the clusterfuck this game's combat is.

 

[Fedora Master]

Lol rating Poolars over Kingmaker

 

[Grunker]

Those would be the last two words I'd use to describe the clusterfuck this game's combat is.

The IE-games play at insane speeds compared to PoEs

 

[Ismaul]

But you have control of the speed in PoE...

And you can choose not to have it slow down automatically when combat starts in the options.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Those would be the last two words I'd use to describe the clusterfuck this game's combat is.

The IE-games play at insane speeds compared to PoEs

Grunker with his galaxy brain.

Have you thought that it is because IE combat is much cleaner and easier to comprehend.

It is impossible to see what is going on in PoE without Pausing.

 

[Grunker]

Those would be the last two words I'd use to describe the clusterfuck this game's combat is.

The IE-games play at insane speeds compared to PoEs

Grunker with his galaxy brain.

Have you thought that it is because IE combat is much cleaner and easier to comprehend.

It is impossible to see what is going on in PoE without Pausing.

Indeed that's part of it. Though impossible is untrue

'Unwieldly', is the term

 

[Grunker]

But you have control of the speed in PoE...

And you can choose not to have it slow down automatically when combat starts in the options.

That only supports my position. If you're going to play it on slow, why not play it in turns?

 

[Haplo]

Pillars' system was tailored for RTwP. It works much better in real time IMO. Baldurs' systems are rather simplistic compared with it (apart from spells, obviously).

Better point of reference would be the NWN games.

 

[Ismaul]

But you have control of the speed in PoE...

And you can choose not to have it slow down automatically when combat starts in the options.

That only supports my position. If you're going to play it on slow, why not play it in turns?

That does not support your point at all.

Your position is that IE is fast, PoE is slow. My point is you can make PoE fast or slow to your liking, therefore your criticism is irrelevant.

 

[Ol' Willy]

If I want speed I would play Ballistics. TB or bust.

 

[Grunker]

But you have control of the speed in PoE...

And you can choose not to have it slow down automatically when combat starts in the options.

That only supports my position. If you're going to play it on slow, why not play it in turns?

That does not support your point at all.

Your position is that IE is fast, PoE is slow. My point is you can make PoE fast or slow to your liking, therefore your criticism is irrelevant.

I'm not talking about the speed settings of each game. That much should really be clear from the OP. I'm talking about the speed of play and movement that the gameplay and system encourages/makes possible.

 

[Grunker]

Baldurs' systems are rather simplistic compared with it (apart from spells, obviously).

They are. As The Great ThunThun correctly states, that's part of what makes Pillars unwieldly, "heavy" and too slow in terms of movement

 

[Ismaul]

Hey if you didn't like PoE's clusterfuck RTwP combat, why did you even like IE's clusterfuck RTwP combat?

 

[Grunker]

Neither are clusterfucky if you're good at the games. But one is hampered by its rtwp, while the other is not

 

[Nano]

I think part of what makes IE's combat easier to digest is that the characters walk instead of run.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

For me Kingmaker, at times, did bring the feeling of playing one of the cool, big quests in BG2. With YUUUGELY better party building as an added bonus. It's the first "old school brought back to life" title since the first Grimrock that managed to actually capitalize on the promise of being like the games they aim to emulate.

 

[Lacrymas]

The IE-games play at insane speeds compared to PoEs

Rofl. PoE has millisecond recovery times when using one-handed weapons and the char is built for speed. PoE is actually too fast to control properly if you aren't using the slower setting. PoE is unwieldy because everyone has different "turn speeds" that don't follow any rime or reason when looking at the big picture, and as so you can issue much more commands per time frame than any of the IE games.

 

[Grunker]

The IE-games play at insane speeds compared to PoEs

Rofl. PoE has millisecond recovery times when using one-handed weapons and the char is built for speed. PoE is actually too fast to control properly if you aren't using the slower setting. PoE is unwieldy because everyone has different "turn speeds" that don't follow any rime or reason when looking at the big picture, and as so you can issue much more commands per time frame than any of the IE games.

I can move three Baldur's Gate toons across the map in the blink of an eye, do an action, and move them again. What you're talking about is the number of actions I have to commit to, and you're right. But that's exactly part of the reason it feels better to play in turn-based. And why BG's combat feels faster.

I think part of what makes IE's combat easier to digest is that the characters walk instead of run.

IE toons are hasted from level 5 forward. When hasted, they move much faster than PoE-toons both because they are just faster but also because the movement-dependent interactions (AoO's for instance) are way less present. The restrictions on movement are just way bigger in both PoE and PF:K

 

[Haplo]

Perhaps you should try using mobility skillz in PoE? My non-tank melees rarely ever move somewhere on their feet. Escape is bread and butter for rogue mixes. Evasive Fire is good for Rangers. Barbarians Leap. Monks eventually get Flagellant's Path. Fighters can use Charge. Movement restrictions hardly exist in PoE.

 

[Riddler]

The problem with PoE is that every class is designed as if it was a single character game with seven million active abilities (in addition to the movement restrictions).

Are fighters "boring" in BG? Maybe but that is beside the point because it is a party based games where different character can have different roles.

The games are designed as if they're WoW, not RTwP RPGs, problems predictably follow.

 

[Grunker]

For me Kingmaker, at times, did bring the feeling of playing one of the cool, big quests in BG2. With YUUUGELY better party building as an added bonus. It's the first "old school brought back to life" title since the first Grimrock that managed to actually capitalize on the promise of being like the games they aim to emulate.

I'm kindda getting the same feeling in my current playthrough. But that's from the turn-based playthrough. On RTwP I felt so underwhelmed by the gameplay I didn't have to time to immerse myself in that part. But I agree, it really nails that scope-part

 

[Grunker]

Perhaps you should try using mobility skillz in PoE? My non-tank melees rarely ever move somewhere on their feet. Escape is bread and butter for rogue mixes. Evasive Fire is good for Rangers. Barbarians Leap. Monks eventually get Flagellant's Path. Fighters can use Charge. Movement restrictions hardly exist in PoE.

I play on PotD, often with gimped party setups, so I use every single movement-skill and often items that grant them as well. But that's exactly what I'm talking about. You don't micro fast movement-patterns and can't relocate always and as often as you're like. You're way, waaaaaaaaay more restricted than in BG, and the movement skills exist for that reason. And they're another part of the game that work better in TB, btw.

 

[Lacrymas]

You are more restricted only in the context of AoOs, but that doesn't mean you can't run circles around mobs like you could in the IE games. I'd say the absence of AoOs in the IE games is a huge oversight.