Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Vapourware Seven Dragon Saga - Gold Box spiritual successor from SSI veterans

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,363
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
I know it's been lamented that this project does not feature first person exploration with a switch to top down tactical combat. It's a concern I sympathize with, and would strongly advocate the classic Gold Box perspectives, except TSI already announced last year they would be going isometric. Today they addressed the decision concisely, if not to everyone's satisfaction, when responding to a backer:

Too many different views is challenging. We're really making an effort to streamline and be efficient with some of our design decisions.

The reference to streamlining with regard to developer resources, not gameplay elements or systems.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,442
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hey, who gave the Kickstarter $10,000 today? There were only 28 backers.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
About founding and money, they are writing in the comments:
Funding from Kickstarter provides the necessary funding to push into full development. We've also drawn interest from regional publishers about territory/language rights amongst other opportunities.

Infinitron
Question is not who, but how many. There is no single 10k backer.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Let's see:

SRR: $400,000
LoX $10,000
UWA $600,000
Starcrawlers: $60,000
Dungeons of Aledorn: $60,000
Dead State: $150,000
T:ToN $900,000
SitS: $10,000
PoE: $1,100,00
W2: $900,000

There you have a diverse group of kickstarters that all have (or intend to have) custom graphics of varying quality. Note that the quality seems somewhat independent of the kickstarter goal (e.g. Wasteland 2).

Seven Dragon Saga has a goal of: $450,000. This puts it somewhere in the middle between pesudo-aaa and tiny team effort. If you have a genuine interest in criticising their scope or means I'll recommend posting here. You could also continue to shitpost if that is your preference.

That's not to say that we know anything about their intention vis-à-vis graphics, I just don't think that baseless posts serve any purpose.
Maybe list actual budgets instead of what they asked for. PoE, WL2, and SRR would have looked quite different at the their base funding levels. SRR in particular let it be known that at base, it was going to be top down, not isometric.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,085
Well, with their shitty unity assets they managed to create better character models than W2, I'll give them that.
 

Pony King

Educated
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
93
Why are we assuming that the game will be defined by Unity store graphical assets?
None of us know what they intend to do, but right now they need to get funded before trying anything, and that generic as fuck prototype made with the Unity store ain't helping nor making the "market receptive".
I don't necessarily disagree, I just noticed Zed getting antsy and wanted to remind him how little we know of the game that they actually intend to make. People around here tend to make large assumptions based on our "experience" as RPG-fans, which logically doesn't inform us much about actual game development and therefore doesn't make a strong basis for making huge assumptions.

Maybe list actual budgets instead of what they asked for. PoE, WL2, and SRR would have looked quite different at the their base funding levels. SRR in particular let it be known that at base, it was going to be top down, not isometric.
I don't think that was the point I made. The post was a reply to V_K who made ridiculous assumptions about the cost of unique graphics.

Incidentially, I've tried posting a subject to their forum to get some answers about some of the concerns voiced on the 'dex, we'll see if I get some answers. If I do I might re-read the threads and post more.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I don't think that was the point I made. The post was a reply to V_K who made ridiculous assumptions about the cost of unique graphics.
But you didn't address how much was actually spent at any point. SRR wouldn't have had unique 3D assets at 400k because they would have made a top down 2D game.
 

Pony King

Educated
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
93
I didn't mean to. My point was that the people who made those kickstarters set those goals (as far as I know), without intending to use generic unity store assets in their final product. Am I wrong? Remember that the original post was in reply to V_K who, without knowing anything about the project, decided that they couldn't afford original graphics. I was trying to show that his assumption was problematic through examples, if some of the examples didn't hold up then others did.

A better critique would be:
"I think that their kickstarter goal is too low and that this will impact the graphical (or some other) quality of the final product, specifically in regards to re-using unity assets. I'm going to take this question to them on their forum."
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
I know it's been lamented that this project does not feature first person exploration with a switch to top down tactical combat. It's a concern I sympathize with, and would strongly advocate the classic Gold Box perspectives, except TSI already announced last year they would be going isometric. Today they addressed the decision concisely, if not to everyone's satisfaction, when responding to a backer:

Too many different views is challenging. We're really making an effort to streamline and be efficient with some of our design decisions.

The reference to streamlining with regard to developer resources, not gameplay elements or systems.

I totally understood that concern right from the start, it just doesn't make it any better.
Without 1st person exploration, it's not a Goldbox reminiscent game to me.
Same with the Unity assets and whatnot. I understand why they made the decision, but that doesn't make it any better.

Imo, if they wanted to get the old Goldbox fans aboard, they should've gone with a fake-2d exploration interface (very basic 3D geometry with hand painted textures in the old goldbox style, but in glorious hi-resolution) and fake or even real 2d combat that at the very least looked pixel'ish.
Imagine if their pitch video would have been centered about a reimagening of the Pool of Radiance intro and demo. A barebones logo screen with the 7DS logo and a soundpiece reminescent of the old music. Then a copycat of the short showcase demo. A few steps through a city showcasing the art direction they're going for. A brief combat with clearly tile-based combat in pseudo-2D, using some of the old Goldbox sounds (when hitting or moving) as placeholders ...
Instead we got this poor mans version of Ruins of Myth Drannor.
Tell you what Goldbox veterans, I wasn't too thrilled with that approach back when RoMD came out, chances are I won't be thrilled with it now either. :cry:
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I didn't mean to. My point was that the people who made those kickstarters set those goals (as far as I know), without intending to use generic unity store assets in their final product. Am I wrong? Remember that the original post was in reply to V_K who, without knowing anything about the project, decided that they couldn't afford original graphics. I was trying to show that his assumption was problematic through examples, if some of the examples didn't hold up then others did.

A better critique would be:
"I think that their kickstarter goal is too low and that this will impact the graphical (or some other) quality of the final product, specifically in regards to re-using unity assets. I'm going to take this question to them on their forum."
Well it's pretty obvious he meant in the context of what they've presented which is 3d art.

Yeah, of course they could have done EGA 2D graphics on the budget, but that's not what they're doing.
 

stony3k

Augur
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
470
Strap Yourselves In
I seem to remember that Obsidian mentioned that 3D was much cheaper than 2.5D especially given where Unity is. We'd love to have them make a Gold Box game, but what if it costs so much more that TSI can't afford to make it? I'd rather see what type of game they can make given budget and market constraints, than see them give up entirely (a la Guido Henkel)
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,442
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
2D eventually becomes cheaper than 3D of equal quality if you have the funds to scale up and develop appropriate asset creation pipelines (though of course, that's contingent on sticking to the relatively limited Infinity Engine RPG formula, where environmental changes, unique animations, etc aren't really a thing)

But whipping up a quick Unity gameplay prototype in 3D is much simpler, that's for sure.
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
Thing is, cheap 3D looks the part.
Furthermore, I wrote "pseudo 2D" because 3D stuff can be made to look reasonably close to 2D while still being 3D - if going 3D is really a must.
For example, most early 3D RTS games looked CRAP compared to their 2D comtemporaries, but eventually, this ceased being a problem. AoE3 comes to mind.

All a moot point, of course, because the decision to abandon a 2D view has been made and I'd guess a lot of other decisions are equally set in stone by now - at some point, you have to run with an idea, even if it's maybe not the best one to begin with.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,573
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In case any non-backers care at this point, a new update was just posted with information on character classes:

David Shelley, with more details about Classes

Back in the Gold Box days, we used the AD&D system, and Classes were pretty simple and familiar to a lot of our audience (Fighter, Mage, Thief are pretty archetypal). With Seven Dragon Saga, we are starting with a pool of abilities and parceling them out into Classes and Specialties with clear concepts. I'll go over the highlights of each Class we've devised, but not list every ability and rank. As noted earlier, we are in development, so details may change and which of these make initial release is still to be determined.

About half the starting ability points come from the Classes and really set the theme of the character, so they are the combat anchor for the remaining aspects: Race and Specialty.

Legionnaire. Veterans from light units of the empire's many wars. Aware of the battlefield, and, with shield guard ability, can further reduce damage from opponents. Shield and light armor make this the hardest Class to hit. Push survival higher with the Defensive Specialty, adding deflection and luck. Or go with the Noble Specialty, for added Hit Points, some useful skills, and the ability to add Leadership bonuses to the rest of the party.

  • Armor: Light Armor and Shield
  • Primary Weapon: Sword
Knight. Specialist of heavy infantry units. Higher overall statistics, especially strength, extra hit points and two-handed weapon abilities. Excellent for the front lines with staying power and multiple targets, or add a speciality with extra movement, such as Fast, and send him as a missile into the heart of the enemy.

  • Armor: Heavy Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Two-handed weapons
Scout. What makes the Scout unique is a very high stealth skill, and Shadowmaster, the ability to turn invisible. Scouts excel at flanking or getting behind opponents before they realize they are even there. Often sent to spot the enemy, remove pickets and guide others. Their Sniper ability improves bow use. A natural choice to add the Rogue Specialty to, and create the sneak thief. Nature Scouts become invisible casters, making them major threats.

  • Armor: Light Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Bows
Wizard. The classic spell slinger, and only class that can cast spells from multiple elements. Has 2nd level spells from all elements available at the start. Also has a host of knowledge skills for understanding the occult, and strange artifacts. Combine with an elemental Specialty to access up to 4th level spells, or gain more utility with a less mystical choice.

  • Armor: Light Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Spell Staff
Pitfighter. Recruited, honestly or not, to perform in the pits to entertain the nobility, and the masses. Lots of hit points, aware of the battlefield, extra attack once per encounter. Good with the Fast Specialty to apply their damage to any target in the area.

  • Armor: Light Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Dual wielded light blades
Archer. An excellent sniper or deadly assassin, with massive range, ability to cover fire, and able to fall back on blades if he's pinned down. This is a damage output class, and could improve this further with the Deadly Specialty, or he could choose an elemental Specialty just to get at the spell which converts his damage to that element (fire arrows!).

  • Armor: Light Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Bows
Wraith Hunter. The empire has a strong dislike for the undead, and the hunters are specialized at eradicating them; somewhat similar to the D&D Paladins, without the religious link. Good hit points, strength, awareness of the battlefield, complements additional defense and the ability to Harm the undead. Increase Harm and add in Heal by matching with the Priestly Specialty. Select Death Element Specialty and add Necromantic spells to further control and destroy undead.

  • Armor: Heavy Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Dual wielded heavy blades
Soultender. A solid fighter, often using the spear to extend reach, a selfish Soultender is a hard character to bring down with her abilities to restore her own hit points. Keeping folks alive during battle is a major task, and the Healer has the two major abilities for that: Heal and Rejuvenation. Also, Physician skill for more mundane injuries, better recovery of party Fatigue and Trauma. Combine with Priestly for very high healing, some harm undead, or Nature Element to mimic a druid.

  • Armor: Light Armor
  • Primary Weapon: Two-handed weapons
Edwin will provide more of the lore for the Classes, but you may note the number of military oriented Classes reflects the empire's martial roots. I’ll be sharing an Update on Specialties soon.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
I wonder why they are so against the ego perspective. My current experience in unity3d show that changing from a isometric camera to a ego view is quite simple. The only problem could be the change of the scale of things, and that it don't look so good anymore. But hey this is unity3d and this is an cRPG it don't have to look good, it has to make fun.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,363
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
So, the soultender is the healer. That title is new to me. I might revise the party composition I was thinking about, and go with an Imperial (human) wraith hunter after being likened to the classic paladin.

Crunchy class mechanic goodness.

Darkzone I think players need to recall the Dark Sun games, produced after the Gold Box games, which Dave Shelley was an Associate Producer. I'm not saying SDS looks anything like Dark Sun, but the switch from first person view to full time overhead view was a direction SSI was already going in back then. TSI was founded as a rebirth of SSI first, not only the Gold Box engine. If people adjusted their expectations accordingly, there would be less disappointment.
 
Last edited:

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,573
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So, the soultender is the healer. That title is new to me.
Me too. I guess they wanted to get away from flat out naming classes after the holy trinity. I was actually surprised to see a class called teh healz0r - I kind of miss it now though; 'Soultender' is pretty dorky.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Darkzone I think players need to recall the Dark Sun games, produced after the Gold Box games, which Dave Shelley was an Associate Producer. I'm not saying SDS looks anything like Dark Sun, but the switch from first person view to full time overhead view was a direction SSI was already going in back then. TSI was founded as a rebirth of SSI first, not only the Gold Box engine. If people adjusted their expectations accordingly, there would be less disappointment.
Ok that is a true statement, but Dark Sun series had only two games and only one was playable. And how many were from the ego perspective 10? Most people remember the Pool of Radiance Forgotten Realms series and also the Dragonlance series and the first Buck Rogers game. I loved Dark Sun the most out of this games, but this is due to it's fantastic setting, and not the perspective. As i made the account for Wasteland 2 forum i wanted to call myself Dark Sun, but i think this name was already taken and it sounds to much of an Nazi.
 

Alchemist

Arcane
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Messages
1,439
Frankly, their reasoning for not having a 1st-person perspective (too challenging, streamlining resources) does not really hold water. Dungeons of Aledorn is already doing it and they are a much lower budget game.

I guess they really just aren't interested in making a true Gold Box successor and have other design goals in mind.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
Patron
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
3,858
Location
In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
At #Ubisoft HQ during GDC, holders of several SSI franchises (Panzer General). Great talking about the future.

CATuYUTUYAA2kWg.jpg

https://twitter.com/TSIGames/status/577848758609657856

so what could this mean, by the way?

Any chance they are working on getting the GoldBox games on GoG? He met with the WotC guys too..
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,363
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
Darkzone I think players need to recall the Dark Sun games, produced after the Gold Box games, which Dave Shelley was an Associate Producer. I'm not saying SDS looks anything like Dark Sun, but the switch from first person view to full time overhead view was a direction SSI was already going in back then. TSI was founded as a rebirth of SSI first, not only the Gold Box engine. If people adjusted their expectations accordingly, there would be less disappointment.
Ok that is a true statement, but Dark Sun series had only two games and only one was playable. And how many were from the ego perspective 10? Most people remember the Pool of Radiance Forgotten Realms series and also the Dragonlance series and the first Buck Rogers game. I loved Dark Sun the most out of this games, but this is due to it's fantastic setting, and not the perspective. As i made the account for Wasteland 2 forum i wanted to call myself Dark Sun, but i think this name was already taken and it sounds to much of an Nazi.

If I could wave a magic wand and make them design a 3D view port for adventuring mode, I would. Obviously, it's not a deal breaker for me. I'd rather have the larger party of 6. Maybe TSI looked at the success of Wasteland 2, D:OS, PoE, and decided that isometric was the way to go for a kickstarter campaign. Should the developers free themselves from the constraints of appealing to the masses for funding, perhaps they will re-visit perspective and overall UI presentation.

And if not, there's always DungeonCraft.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,573
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I guess they really just aren't interested in making a true Gold Box successor and have other design goals in mind.
Yep. They never said a new Gold Box game was coming, just "We made some games you loved, including these."

I'm reminded of the Wasteland 2 campaign ...
"We are some of the people responsible for Fallout."
"Oh, so this is actually going to be the 'real' Fallout 3 just with a different name."
"No ... there may be influences, but it's going to be Wasteland 2."
"Oh good! More Fallout!"
"..."
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom