Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns - Dead Man's Switch Original Campaign

[Lacrymas]

If a rep is built to be indistinguishable from a human, he should experience life like a human. The fact that reps are immune to the empathy box is proof that they ultimately are not human.

Ok, let's assume this uncritically and say that's 100% proof they are not human and no human can ever fail the VK test or the empathy box. So what? Animals aren't human, theoretically aliens also aren't human. Does that mean they should be outlawed and hunted down by the police? Maybe this whole exercise is testing our own empathy and not the replicants'. If the problem is that they are too dangerous due to lack of empathy and might harm people, then ...don't design them with a lack of empathy? Or don't design them with desires for freedom or the capacity for suffering.

 

[True Ukrainian]

If a rep is built to be indistinguishable from a human, he should experience life like a human. The fact that reps are immune to the empathy box is proof that they ultimately are not human.

Ok, let's assume this uncritically and say that's 100% proof they are not human and no human can ever fail the VK test or the empathy box. So what? Animals aren't human, theoretically aliens also aren't human. Does that mean they should be outlawed and hunted down by the police? Maybe this whole exercise is testing our own empathy and not the replicants'. If the problem is that they are too dangerous due to lack of empathy and might harm people, then ...don't design them with a lack of empathy? Or don't design them with desires for freedom or the capacity for suffering.

Tyrell designed the reps to be better than human. And they can feign humanity perfectly fine. Deckard is seduced by Rachel and has an affair with her. Their lack of empathy is caused by the inability to see past material reality, IE lack of a soul. Since they can't see beyond material reality, a rep will only consider wholly utilitarianism issues, something a human is incapable of.

 

[mediocrepoet]

You think Deckard would've been an ork? Who would win the corp war between Tyrell Corporation and Renraku? You know. Since this is a Shadowrun thread.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Depends which Deckard. Book Deckard was very middle-class in outlook, obsessed with buying the latest pets as status symbols and trapped in a boring marriage. I can't see that Deckard as a downtrodden orc.

 

[Lacrymas]

Tyrell designed the reps to be better than human. And they can feign humanity perfectly fine. Deckard is seduced by Rachel and has an affair with her. Their lack of empathy is caused by the inability to see past material reality, IE lack of a soul. Since they can't see beyond material reality, a rep will only consider wholly utilitarianism issues, something a human is incapable of.

So, you create something then outlaw that something because of the qualities you imbued it with and specifically wanted on its creation? Aren't the replicants then in some way justified for their luciferian-like rebellion against their creators? They would feel cursed with mortality (or short life spans) by their creator and anger at their outlawed status. However, it's worth noting that the film is only loosely based on the book and there are significant differences. Deckard wonders about what it means to be human and about human empathy in the book, though, so my take isn't particularly radical.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Tyrell designed the reps to be better than human. And they can feign humanity perfectly fine. Deckard is seduced by Rachel and has an affair with her. Their lack of empathy is caused by the inability to see past material reality, IE lack of a soul. Since they can't see beyond material reality, a rep will only consider wholly utilitarianism issues, something a human is incapable of.

So, you create something then outlaw that something because of the qualities you imbued it with and specifically wanted on its creation? Aren't the replicants then in some way justified for their luciferian-like rebellion against their creators? They would feel cursed with mortality (or short life spans) by their creator. However, it's worth noting that the film is only loosely based on the book and there are significant differences. Deckard wonders about what it means to be human and about human empathy in the book, though, so my take isn't particularly radical.

Tyrell actively helps the reps in the book. He never intended for them to be persecuted. Earth was recovering from World War terminus and much animal life is already bio engineered replacements, not natural animals. Many humans are sterile from the nukes. In this setting, reps would make sense in helping the human race survive and repopulate. It's just that most humans didn't share Tyrell's opinion.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Wallace Jr > Tyrell.

 

[Lacrymas]

By "creator", I mean humans, not specifically Tyrell. But informative none the less.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm planning to play Hong Kong next, which I haven't played a second time because there was no German translation, but one has been created for both DF and HK since then and I'm itching to see what I've missed in my original playthrough (not because of lack of a German translation, but because of my own lack of knowledge and analytical skills back then). Hopefully, It will be a doozy for both me and the 'dex ;d

 

[Grauken]

They aren't good, they just are. As for being 'the only hope', a more appropriate way to frame it is that they are the only big power players.

Megacorporations are, in this context, unavoidable and just like a force of nature? So don't strike or rebel, peasant, for not only is it futile but also next time they'll leave you to the insect spirits.

Such is the way of dystopia. Although plenty of idealists might still rebel and almost nobody knows about the eldritch horrors from beyond.

That's basically the pitch that the insect spirits make at some point in the Shadowrun novels "We are bad, but there are worse things out there, so why don't you join our hive?"

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That's basically the pitch that the insect spirits make at some point in the Shadowrun novels "We are bad, but there are worse things out there, so why don't you join our hive?"

Meh, better to live under corpos than under some weird cult. Not to mention that insect cults tend to have a lot of unwilling people turned into the Shadowrun equivalent of a daemonhost.

 

[Grauken]

That's basically the pitch that the insect spirits make at some point in the Shadowrun novels "We are bad, but there are worse things out there, so why don't you join our hive?"

Meh, better to live under corpos than under some weird cult. Not to mention that insect cults tend to have a lot of unwilling people turned into the Shadowrun equivalent of a daemonhost.

Well obviously, whether it is insect spirits that control your mind or outer demons, the end result isn't nice

 

[Lacrymas]

If literal giant insect infestation, forced transformations/soul replacements, and horrors from beyond existence are the only things worse than megacorporations, then I'll take it as a cyberpunk take against megacorps.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Meh, better to live under corpos than under some weird cult.

*cough*communism*cough*

Depends which Deckard. Book Deckard was very middle-class in outlook, obsessed with buying the latest pets as status symbols and trapped in a boring marriage. I can't see that Deckard as a downtrodden orc.

Sounds more 'umie than orky

 

[True Ukrainian]

You could previously live the shadowrun life in Hong Kong. A land ruled literally by megacorps until they lost control of the situation. And the plucky freedom fighters met an end suitable for any cyberpunk story.

 

[Delterius]

In the original novel, humans are incapable of failing the VK test simply because they're human. Empathy is tied to having a soul, and all humans possess a soul by virtue of our birth. That's why Deckard can experience God despite God not existing. He has a soul and can see past crude reality, something a rep can't do.

Something that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is not necessarily a duck. A duck must have the soul of a duck. Anything else, no matter how convincing, is an imitation.

That's what I mean by proving too much. If replicants look, walk and quack like humans but lack souls, how are we sure humans themselves have a soul? There is a theory in Christian theology - traducianism - that argues the soul is transferred generationally and the new soul of an infant is derived from the souls of the parents. However, this is scientifically unfit and can not be resolved. There are no grounds on which to argue biological birth is the origination of a soul in the first place.

The novel had a device called the empathy box where you would hook the player up to it and he would experience the crucifixion of Christ. Humans would feel Christ's pain as he's pelted with rocks and nailed to the cross. Experience the program to the end and you will literally die. Reps experience none of this. They don't feel pain when playing the empathy box. That's proof they don't have a soul.

the metaverse is getting wild

 

[tky]

Just picked this one up. Here hoping its a good one!

Gonna play as Strider, the Mage...

Gave myself some extra health and a SMG.

The premise sound interesting at least.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Spending points on a weapon skill while playing as a mage is a waste. Mages have a free use spell that serves the same role as a gun.

 

[Sykar]

Gun can still be complementaty depending on what spells you pick and how you want to complement it. You want some dodge skill anyway alongside body to get sturdy enough.
Also the game is easy enough that you can spread your skills around a little.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Gun can still be complementaty depending on what spells you pick and how you want to complement it. You want some dodge skill anyway alongside body to get sturdy enough.

Depends on which campaign you're playing. I found that in HK you're better off not investing in weapons especially once you hit the last few missions.

 

[Nano]

Isn't playing a Decker kind of mandatory in this game? Since there are no companions to hack things for you.

 

[Lacrymas]

Isn't playing a Decker kind of mandatory in this game? Since there are no companions to hack things for you.

You hire a decker.

 

[Dwarvophile]

In the original novel, humans are incapable of failing the VK test simply because they're human. Empathy is tied to having a soul, and all humans possess a soul by virtue of our birth. That's why Deckard can experience God despite God not existing. He has a soul and can see past crude reality, something a rep can't do.

Something that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is not necessarily a duck. A duck must have the soul of a duck. Anything else, no matter how convincing, is an imitation.

That's what I mean by proving too much. If replicants look, walk and quack like humans but lack souls, how are we sure humans themselves have a soul? There is a theory in Christian theology - traducianism - that argues the soul is transferred generationally and the new soul of an infant is derived from the souls of the parents. However, this is scientifically unfit and can not be resolved. There are no grounds on which to argue biological birth is the origination of a soul in the first place.

The novel had a device called the empathy box where you would hook the player up to it and he would experience the crucifixion of Christ. Humans would feel Christ's pain as he's pelted with rocks and nailed to the cross. Experience the program to the end and you will literally die. Reps experience none of this. They don't feel pain when playing the empathy box. That's proof they don't have a soul.

Not until crucifiction, that would have been too obvious & distasteful for PK Dick, empathy boxes was about climbing that hill while people would throw insults & rocks at you. It's interesting that the VK test is also mainly about empathy. " It's all about empathy, man (now have a puff it's good weed)."

I've never read that novel right, by purpose. I always chose to see replicants as a personification of the ultra specialized autistic mono-maniakish psychopaths that will slowly replace us.

 

[wishbonetail]

I've never read that novel right, by purpose. I always chose to see replicants as a personification of the ultra specialized autistic mono-maniakish psychopaths that will slowly replace us.

And this is a right way to read that novel, ironically. Author doesnt try to evoke empathy or sympathy from the reader towards replicants.

 

[True Ukrainian]

I've never read that novel right, by purpose. I always chose to see replicants as a personification of the ultra specialized autistic mono-maniakish psychopaths that will slowly replace us.

And this is a right way to read that novel, ironically. Author doesnt try to evoke empathy or sympathy from the reader towards replicants.

I remember this old interview with Dick where he said that making reps sympathetic went against the entire message of the book.

 

[tky]

Spending points on a weapon skill while playing as a mage is a waste. Mages have a free use spell that serves the same role as a gun.

In my defense: it's hard to know that playing the game for the first time, but I do see what you mean.

Isn't playing a Decker kind of mandatory in this game? Since there are no companions to hack things for you.

So far, outside of a few speech checks, no mandatory Decker.





As it turned out, my choice of some extra health at the beginning was a pretty good one because I seem to start evey fight in the open, being shot in the face...

What's a better way to show you're a decendant of japanese than to say random japanese words in your phrases, huh? Because that's how ancestry works... Annoying is what it is.

Suprisingly, outside of the openning salvos, enemies barely touch me and fights are quite easy. I was expecting a bit more from the second highest difficulty.

There's also quite a bit of space that just goes unused.

The hardest fight so far, a random dog-like creature, and only because I can't take cover.

Some random Elf the game calls ugly. There's a 100% chance he's gonna be a vilain.

I'm running a mix of utility spells and damage. So far armor doesn't seem to be worth it.

First bug I run into; thankfully harmless. Apparently my character took it way too seriously to "run the shadows". Or maybe he just didn't wanted to be seen paying a bribe.

Finally, my build so far:

Overrall, game's been fun so far, if a bit too simplistic. Unless the game drops the ball too hard, I already have Dragonfall and Hong Kong lined up next.