Shivering Isles fan Interview

[hiciacit]

Mods, "making the game"?

Actually, that would explain quite a lot.

 

[Alexander]

Just a quick Alexander, was it you who got my latest account banned on the TES forums?

Nope, I won't ever use anything I read on other forums or chats and the likes, against someone on a forum I'm a member of, or moderator for that matter.

I might think less of someone, or simply ignore them due to actions elsewhere, but I'll never use it against them when warning or banning someone.

One more thing Alexander and pass this along to that jerkoff Miltiades, the one who UNFAIRLY banned me the first time, and the rest of the mods. I'll continue to post on the TES forums no matter how many accounts they ban. I've gone one right now, just waiting to go.

If you think I'm going to play errand boy for you, you're quite mistaken old chap.

I'd be very interested to see some of these links. I'm no regular poster at STG, but I have been a registered poster there for quite a long time. I have a sneaking suspicion your definition of "disruptive behavior" is based on isolated cases - limited to the few where the line is crossed.

hm, let's see here;
http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... php?t=2182
the way for that site to welcome some new moderators appointed on the official forums.
it has;
- Namecalling
- General bashing
- Insulting

http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... php?t=2544

http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... php?t=2364

posts like these;
http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... hp?p=45417
(page ten of the blackball thread)

And I could go on for a while longer, but this would appear to be loads of reading alone. I'm not sure if we have the same ideas about disruptive behavior, but advocating piracy, advocating a spam attack on the official forums, advocating harassing a moderator through his private email address, it seems to me like that's more then enough grounds for such a blackballing.

And that's not even mentioning a threat I received personally, from someone not technically on the staff of STG, but the next best thing, and actually staff of a site run by the same people as STG; SGG. Who insulted me, the country where I'm from, and mentioned he'd prefer to come over someday so we could "settle it like real men"
oh bother

The fact of the matter is this:

The STG community has been there through the releases of a lot of Star Trek games - the majority of which received heavy criticism from the very same community just like the one that criticized Star Trek Legacy. Yet, none of the other publishers or developers of those games has ever taken any action as drastic as black-listing the entire bank of consumers and potential consumers. This tells me that Bethesda, when it comes to receiving criticism and negativity from fan sites, chooses a more radical and less-tolerant method - something a publisher should try to avoid if it wants to NOT alienate potential future customers.

heh, sorry but you happen to be wrong there. Bethesda isn't the first company to have issues with the STG, Taldren and Activision have had problems aswell.

And at the same time, I'd like to point you to this forum;
http://stgu.com/startrekforum/forumdisplay.php?f=208

which is another huge ST fansite, which has also posted atleast as much criticism about Legacy at the STG has, but did however refrain from any personal attacks directed at certain admins or moderators, and is still allowed on the official forums.

 

[whitemithrandir]

hm, let's see here;
http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... php?t=2182
the way for that site to welcome some new moderators appointed on the official forums.
it has;
- Namecalling
- General bashing
- Insulting

http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... php?t=2544

http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... php?t=2364

posts like these;
http://www.startrek-gamers.com/forum/vi ... hp?p=45417
(page ten of the blackball thread)

And I could go on for a while longer, but this would appear to be loads of reading alone. I'm not sure if we have the same ideas about disruptive behavior, but advocating piracy, advocating a spam attack on the official forums, advocating harassing a moderator through his private email address, it seems to me like that's more then enough grounds for such a blackballing.

And that's not even mentioning a threat I received personally, from someone not technically on the staff of STG, but the next best thing, and actually staff of a site run by the same people as STG; SGG. Who insulted me, the country where I'm from, and mentioned he'd prefer to come over someday so we could "settle it like real men"
oh bother

Like I said, Alexander, isolated incidents that doesn't appear to represent the ENTIRE COMMUNITY being blacklisted. In several of those threads you linked to, it's clear that the opinions you pointed out aren't being shared by the entire community, and that's the point I'm trying to make:

You can't target an entire community unless someone who can represent the entire community has come out and stated these opinions de-facto.

heh, sorry but you happen to be wrong there. Bethesda isn't the first company to have issues with the STG, Taldren and Activision have had problems aswell.

But blacklisting? Taking such radical action?

And at the same time, I'd like to point you to this forum;
http://stgu.com/startrekforum/forumdisplay.php?f=208

which is another huge ST fansite, which has also posted atleast as much criticism about Legacy at the STG has, but did however refrain from any personal attacks directed at certain admins or moderators, and is still allowed on the official forums.

Look, the point that I'm trying to make is: if there is disruptive behavior, then you TARGET the members responsible; not the entire umbrella community.

 

[Alexander]

Like I said, Alexander, isolated incidents that doesn't appear to represent the ENTIRE COMMUNITY being blacklisted. In several of those threads you linked to, it's clear that the opinions you pointed out aren't being shared by the entire community, and that's the point I'm trying to make:

You can't target an entire community unless someone who can represent the entire community has come out and stated these opinions de-facto.

I don't believe anyone could ever really be considered as representing "the entire community". Not in that community nor in any other. Though fact is, even if the Staff of that site did not agree with harassing a moderator, they certainly did nothing, or very close to nothing to stop such a thing taking place there. And when speaking about one of the threads I linked you to, that's a thread insulting the moderators of the official forums, created by the very head admin of the STG; Victor1st. So going along with your statement of community leader, if the head admin of a forum isn't such a person, then I wonder who is.

But blacklisting? Taking such radical action?

Yes, both Taldren and and Paramount (though this was revoked lateron.) Did the same to the site.

 

[Section8]

I don't believe anyone could ever really be considered as representing "the entire community". Not in that community nor in any other. Though fact is, even if the Staff of that site did not agree with harassing a moderator, they certainly did nothing, or very close to nothing to stop such a thing taking place there.

Tell me. Why should they? I'm sure their forums have their own rules and regulations, and just because they share the same internet as another forum with its own rules and regulations, I don't see why those rules should be inherited.

I can understand if Bethesda forum mods object to directly linking specific bitch threads, but the idea of blacklisting an entire site because poor sensitive eyes might stumble upon "offensive" content somewhere within it is ludicrous. We're on the fucking internet here, where offensive content is never more than three clicks away.

I don't even think Bethesda has a duty of care for these people. Even if they did, how hard is it to include a disclaimer saying - "Bethesda are not responsible for hyperlinked content." You can still get rid of shock links and that sort of thing, since that's pretty reasonable moderation, but you can't save people from the internet.

Not that I believe that's the actual reason for the blacklisting, which jusitified or not, is shitty for PR if nothing else.

 

[Elhoim]

You can fight your way to the source, or try and outwit the guards and get past them without a fight.

Outwit them? That shouldn´t be too hard...

 

[Elhoim]

So yes, happy with our process, but we’re trying to get better at writing spoken dialogue, our stuff still tends to be long and people seem to just click their way through it.

Less words coming up!

 

[Alexander]

Tell me. Why should they? I'm sure their forums have their own rules and regulations, and just because they share the same internet as another forum with its own rules and regulations, I don't see why those rules should be inherited.

This isn't about what rules a forum must have, or even should have. this is about the staff of that site doing nothing against abuse directed towards another site, or members thereof.

I can understand if Bethesda forum mods object to directly linking specific bitch threads, but the idea of blacklisting an entire site because poor sensitive eyes might stumble upon "offensive" content somewhere within it is ludicrous. We're on the fucking internet here, where offensive content is never more than three clicks away.

I don't even think Bethesda has a duty of care for these people. Even if they did, how hard is it to include a disclaimer saying - "Bethesda are not responsible for hyperlinked content." You can still get rid of shock links and that sort of thing, since that's pretty reasonable moderation, but you can't save people from the internet.

Not that I believe that's the actual reason for the blacklisting, which jusitified or not, is shitty for PR if nothing else.

Under your very own reasoning, you're also saying Bethesda has the right to create their own rules as they see fit, and if that involves banning every startrek fansite then that would be ok.

Just hypothetical ofcourse, but I'm sure you catch my drift.

 

[Ahzaruuk]

Unless you said something really inflammatory that was deleted, I can't think why.

On ESF, if you're banned, you''re banned for good. Even if He didn't do anything inflammatory, he will be banned on sight if they find him.

 

[Romanian_Dude2005]

Less words coming up!

I imagine it's going to be something along the lines of old translated japanesse movies.


DAEDRA. KILL. GREEN ARROW. GO!

 

[Dread]

Unless you said something really inflammatory that was deleted, I can't think why.

On ESF, if you're banned, you''re banned for good. Even if He didn't do anything inflammatory, he will be banned on sight if they find him.

Not so, in most cases it takes a few times (getting banned) for someone to be known as a "Repeat Offender".

 

[Frankie]

Unless you said something really inflammatory that was deleted, I can't think why.

On ESF, if you're banned, you''re banned for good. Even if He didn't do anything inflammatory, he will be banned on sight if they find him.

Not so, in most cases it takes a few times (getting banned) for someone to be known as a "Repeat Offender".

I've went through 3 accounts already since I was first UNFAIRLY banned. On all 3 I did nothing to violate their TOS but I was still banned because they "Thought" it was me and I don't think they really had any proof, other than it being a new account or a recent account.

As far as they are concerned, I'm evil and will be banned on sight. It's nice to know that according to Todd himself in the interview "If people don’t like something in the game, and they spent their money on it, they deserve to bitch, and that’s one of the reasons our forums exist, honestly."

He forgot to add, "As long as your name isn't Frankie"

 

[Sparrow]

I've went through 3 accounts already since I was first UNFAIRLY banned. On all 3 I did nothing to violate their TOS but I was still banned because they "Thought" it was me and I don't think they really had any proof, other than it being a new account or a recent account.

It makes me wonder how many genuine accounts they ban because they suspect it's a former banned member. And because of their inane "we won't discuss banned members" policy, the person won't be able to find out why they were banned or discuss it. If they make a new account, it would probably also be banned on sight because their previous account had been banned.

Hmm. That sounds like great PR, doesn't it? :twisted:

 

[HardCode]

Unless you said something really inflammatory that was deleted, I can't think why.

On ESF, if you're banned, you''re banned for good. Even if He didn't do anything inflammatory, he will be banned on sight if they find him.

Not so, in most cases it takes a few times (getting banned) for someone to be known as a "Repeat Offender".

I've went through 3 accounts already since I was first UNFAIRLY banned. On all 3 I did nothing to violate their TOS but I was still banned because they "Thought" it was me and I don't think they really had any proof, other than it being a new account or a recent account.

As far as they are concerned, I'm evil and will be banned on sight. It's nice to know that according to Todd himself in the interview "If people don’t like something in the game, and they spent their money on it, they deserve to bitch, and that’s one of the reasons our forums exist, honestly."

He forgot to add, "As long as your name isn't Frankie"

It's amazing how only Pete and Toddler can take their #1 fan, most outspoken supporter, faith of the forums ... and turn him into Public Enemy #1. Bethesda even fucks that up. I remember the days when Frankie fought people tooth and nail when they said Oblivion would suck. And how does Bethesda repay him? Only in Bethesda-land kids, only in Bethesda-land.

If I win the next Mega Millions lottery, I am going to buy Bethesda and fire Pete and Toddler. Then I will hire Frankie as VP of Public Relations.

 

[Amasius]

It's amazing how only Pete and Toddler can take their #1 fan, most outspoken supporter, faith of the forums ... and turn him into Public Enemy #1. Bethesda even fucks that up. I remember the days when Frankie fought people tooth and nail when they said Oblivion would suck. And how does Bethesda repay him? Only in Bethesda-land kids, only in Bethesda-land.

And Frankies rage is genuine. Bethesda offended him twice. Not only does Oblivion suck and is a betrayal of his beloved TES franchise, no They also banned him UNFAIRLY. mrgreen: - sorry, couldn't resist) Again and again. Now he could change his IP and keep his new TES identity secret, but then nobody would know that its him, their former biggest fan.

But I guess after the release of Fallout 3 Bethesda will feel the wrath of thousands of offended Fallout fans. And don't care either. Yes, I understand Frankie.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Tell me. Why should they? I'm sure their forums have their own rules and regulations, and just because they share the same internet as another forum with its own rules and regulations, I don't see why those rules should be inherited.

This isn't about what rules a forum must have, or even should have. this is about the staff of that site doing nothing against abuse directed towards another site, or members thereof.

I can understand if Bethesda forum mods object to directly linking specific bitch threads, but the idea of blacklisting an entire site because poor sensitive eyes might stumble upon "offensive" content somewhere within it is ludicrous. We're on the fucking internet here, where offensive content is never more than three clicks away.

I don't even think Bethesda has a duty of care for these people. Even if they did, how hard is it to include a disclaimer saying - "Bethesda are not responsible for hyperlinked content." You can still get rid of shock links and that sort of thing, since that's pretty reasonable moderation, but you can't save people from the internet.

Not that I believe that's the actual reason for the blacklisting, which jusitified or not, is shitty for PR if nothing else.

Under your very own reasoning, you're also saying Bethesda has the right to create their own rules as they see fit, and if that involves banning every startrek fansite then that would be ok.

Just hypothetical ofcourse, but I'm sure you catch my drift.

Sure they can do what they want. In the end it's a private forum, and that's that. I don't have to like it, though. And to be honest with you, the moderation and rules at TESF is part of the reason why i hardly go there any more. I have seen several interesting discussions being closed on me because "this topic typically leads to flamewars, and we just had a similar discussion" - excuse me? I was talking here! I have been flabbergasted a while ago that posting an oblivion.ini file was suddenly illegal (something we did countless times for MW), and was rudely brushed of by CCNA for protesting, with the usual "mail the devs" comment. Which is something extremely Kafkaesque, becaust how many people got more than a standard answer of "we take your concerns seriously, and appreciate your support (now leave us alone, we are busy here)".

And the whole roundabout banning of the Codex (and other sites I don't care much about) is just tedious. Yes, there is swearing here and sometimes unfair and outright hateful behavior towards Bethesda employees and moderators, but I don't see how it could not be handled in a case by case manner. Bethesda (and you moderators too?) have decided otherwise, and in effect the forums partly stopped being the free place of discussion I enjoyed.

And then there is the PC message - maybe they were banned for language and porn, but they also happen to be sites critical of Bethesda. It takes no genius to see that cries of censorship will follow - bad PR.

So yes, they are in their right. But excuse me for thinking that it has made the place unattractive for discussion.


On a different note: it's funny how much TESF flotsam has been washed onto these shores: Me, dongle, Monica21, Frankie, Stargelman... who else? Can you not feel the call of the dark side, Alexander? :twisted:

 

[Solomon Doone]

Unless you said something really inflammatory that was deleted, I can't think why.

On ESF, if you're banned, you''re banned for good. Even if He didn't do anything inflammatory, he will be banned on sight if they find him.

Not so, in most cases it takes a few times (getting banned) for someone to be known as a "Repeat Offender".

I've went through 3 accounts already since I was first UNFAIRLY banned. On all 3 I did nothing to violate their TOS but I was still banned because they "Thought" it was me and I don't think they really had any proof, other than it being a new account or a recent account.

As far as they are concerned, I'm evil and will be banned on sight. It's nice to know that according to Todd himself in the interview "If people don’t like something in the game, and they spent their money on it, they deserve to bitch, and that’s one of the reasons our forums exist, honestly."

He forgot to add, "As long as your name isn't Frankie"

Umm, you do realise that being banned means you're out for good, it's not some temporary setback.

And who said you had to bitch on forums anyway?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

And who said you had to bitch on forums anyway?

Todd Howard?

 

[Solomon Doone]

And who said you had to bitch on forums anyway?

Todd Howard?

So he did.

But still, if you're out you're out, no arguments.

 

[Section8]

Under your very own reasoning, you're also saying Bethesda has the right to create their own rules as they see fit, and if that involves banning every startrek fansite then that would be ok.

No revelations there. It's a private message board, and Bethesda can do whatever the fuck they want, as long as it's legal. But, it's not always a good idea.

For instance, I work for a major retailer, and our policy on returns is basically "no proof of purchase, no return." Do you think we strictly enforce that policy?

Hell no, because we know that pissing off our customers is a bad idea, even if it does make it easier to defraud us. In our particular case, it's better to be friendly and understanding as opposed to being a cold but efficient corporate machine.

I don't see why Bethesda's particular case is much different.

 

[Alexander]

Sure they can do what they want. In the end it's a private forum, and that's that. I don't have to like it, though. And to be honest with you, the moderation and rules at TESF is part of the reason why i hardly go there any more. I have seen several interesting discussions being closed on me because "this topic typically leads to flamewars, and we just had a similar discussion" - excuse me? I was talking here! I have been flabbergasted a while ago that posting an oblivion.ini file was suddenly illegal (something we did countless times for MW), and was rudely brushed of by CCNA for protesting, with the usual "mail the devs" comment. Which is something extremely Kafkaesque, becaust how many people got more than a standard answer of "we take your concerns seriously, and appreciate your support (now leave us alone, we are busy here)".

I wasn't around to see the pm CCNA sent you, so I can't really judge that. But I will say that I do think it's logical to close someone beforehand if you know it's going to turn bad.

Example; just about every thread dealing with platform X versus platform Y has turned bad. People had to be warned, sometimes even banned for things they said in there. And this happened, ten, a hundred times. If 100 such threads get locked due to violations of a rule, what's saying nr 101 won't turn into exactly the same thing, a flamewar?

Now ofcourse I agree it could go very well, people could be very civilised rather then flaming, but what are the odds? And then please consider the moderators and admins there, moderators are volunteerd, who get nothing out of the time they spend there. Admins do get paid but additionally have so many other things as part of their job that they're always pressed for time aswell. I can definitely understand someone closing a thread before it turns into a flamewar, especially when there's a 99.9% chance of it becoming a flamewar. And I'm sure some members who behaved very well in there, will be disappointed with it being closed down, but atleast that's better then having to warn a perfectly good member because he simply let sentiments get the better of himself momentarily in the heat of the moment.

And the whole roundabout banning of the Codex (and other sites I don't care much about) is just tedious. Yes, there is swearing here and sometimes unfair and outright hateful behavior towards Bethesda employees and moderators, but I don't see how it could not be handled in a case by case manner. Bethesda (and you moderators too?) have decided otherwise, and in effect the forums partly stopped being the free place of discussion I enjoyed.

And then there is the PC message - maybe they were banned for language and porn, but they also happen to be sites critical of Bethesda. It takes no genius to see that cries of censorship will follow - bad PR.

Bethesda admins will always make a decision to ban a site, as it's their forums. But as is the case with the ST forums I mentioned above, if the Bethsoft forums clearly state "no nudity and porn links" and people constantly link to a forum where you know goatse links and worse, will be posted constantly with no restrain from that forums leaders, I'd likely have made the same decision bethsoft made to ban the entire site.

On a different note: it's funny how much TESF flotsam has been washed onto these shores: Me, dongle, Monica21, Frankie, Stargelman... who else? Can you not feel the call of the dark side, Alexander? :twisted:

Well, I have been a member here for over a year, does that count for something?

 

[Alexander]

For instance, I work for a major retailer, and our policy on returns is basically "no proof of purchase, no return." Do you think we strictly enforce that policy?

Hell no, because we know that pissing off our customers is a bad idea, even if it does make it easier to defraud us. In our particular case, it's better to be friendly and understanding as opposed to being a cold but efficient corporate machine.

I don't see why Bethesda's particular case is much different.

Nice example, but not entirely accurate I fear. One of the things most people might not realise, is that we often let things slide with just a little "slap on the wrist" rather then a warning or even a ban. If we actually enforced the rules 100% and strictly according to the thread which states the rules, then I'm pretty sure 50% of all the members would have atleast one warning, and the amount of warnings and bans we performed each day would atleast double.

So I see your point, and agree that it's never a good idea to get a customer upset, but also feel bethesda is not going at that the wrong way, atleast not when it comes to enforcing rules on a forum.

 

[Texas Red]

I like it how you never give a reason for a bann. You could be discussing some unrelated topics in OT, come in the next day and discover that you were "suspended" without a warning or a reason. When asked the only answer is that discussing banned members is not allowed. Is it not because of fear that the mistakes and Bethesda's methods will be clear to the public, hmm?

This happened to me and many others(ESF refugess, as we are called). Personally I had several accounts some time ago. They all had no warnings or a single one that was not removed even when explained thoroughly. Usually moderators just stop the PM session and never admit their error. All were banned suddenly without a reason.

If you have nothing to hide then allow the discussion of banned members and locked threads. Period. I have not seen such ridiculous rules in any other gaming forum.

Although I dont understand why I even care. A year ago it would be worth it to come back. Now Summer and her gang with her "suspensions" combined with the invasion of the Xbox kiddies made the off topic section equel to Gamespot.

 

[Alexander]

I like it how you never give a reason for a bann. You could be discussing some unrelated topics in OT, come in the next day and discover that you were "suspended" without a warning or a reason. When asked the only answer is that discussing banned members is not allowed. Is it not because of fear that the mistakes and Bethesda's methods will be clear to the public, hmm?

This happened to me and many others(ESF refugess, as we are called). Personally I had several accounts some time ago. They all had no warnings or a single one that was not removed even when explained thoroughly. Usually moderators just stop the PM session and never admit their error. All were banned suddenly without a reason.

If you have nothing to hide then allow the discussion of banned members and locked threads. Period. I have not seen such ridiculous rules in any other gaming forum.

Although I dont understand why I even care. A year ago it would be worth it to come back. Now Summer and her gang with her "suspensions" combined with the invasion of the Xbox kiddies made the off topic section equel to Gamespot.

Though we never discuss accounts with anyone but the member itself, you are always able to find why you were banned. Even if you're unable to login anymore, you could always send an email to Bethesda and they could, and would, provide you with that info

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

I like it how you never give a reason for a bann. You could be discussing some unrelated topics in OT, come in the next day and discover that you were "suspended" without a warning or a reason. When asked the only answer is that discussing banned members is not allowed. Is it not because of fear that the mistakes and Bethesda's methods will be clear to the public, hmm?

This happened to me and many others(ESF refugess, as we are called). Personally I had several accounts some time ago. They all had no warnings or a single one that was not removed even when explained thoroughly. Usually moderators just stop the PM session and never admit their error. All were banned suddenly without a reason.

If you have nothing to hide then allow the discussion of banned members and locked threads. Period. I have not seen such ridiculous rules in any other gaming forum.

Although I dont understand why I even care. A year ago it would be worth it to come back. Now Summer and her gang with her "suspensions" combined with the invasion of the Xbox kiddies made the off topic section equel to Gamespot.

Though we never discuss accounts with anyone but the member itself, you are always able to find why you were banned. Even if you're unable to login anymore, you could always send an email to Bethesda and they could, and would, provide you with that info

I did that. I never did get a response, and when I asked HD on here, he told me he wasn't sure himself and only the Jesus-Man in the sky knew for sure, and that if I was a good boy and said my prayers and never ate semi-skimmed milk ice lollies on a Sunday I would be able to ask him myself one day.