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Shivering Isles fan Interview

Frankie

Novice
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
79
Alexander said:
The Walkin' Dude said:
I like it how you never give a reason for a bann. You could be discussing some unrelated topics in OT, come in the next day and discover that you were "suspended" without a warning or a reason. When asked the only answer is that discussing banned members is not allowed. Is it not because of fear that the mistakes and Bethesda's methods will be clear to the public, hmm?

This happened to me and many others(ESF refugess, as we are called). Personally I had several accounts some time ago. They all had no warnings or a single one that was not removed even when explained thoroughly. Usually moderators just stop the PM session and never admit their error. All were banned suddenly without a reason.

If you have nothing to hide then allow the discussion of banned members and locked threads. Period. I have not seen such ridiculous rules in any other gaming forum.

Although I dont understand why I even care. A year ago it would be worth it to come back. Now Summer and her gang with her "suspensions" combined with the invasion of the Xbox kiddies made the off topic section equel to Gamespot.

Though we never discuss accounts with anyone but the member itself, you are always able to find why you were banned. Even if you're unable to login anymore, you could always send an email to Bethesda and they could, and would, provide you with that info :)

I'm sorry, but that's pure BS. I filed my complaint about my original account getting banned. You know what I got back, the same thing Bethesda gives us regarding anything.... SILENCE. I still have no info as to why my originial account was banned, I still haven't heard from Bethesda about looking into why I was UNFAIRLY BANNED by that jerkoff. All I got was an e-mail from the Jerkoff who banned me and there was no reason as to why.
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
Dread said:
Not so, in most cases it takes a few times (getting banned) for someone to be known as a "Repeat Offender".
If that's true, then it's changed from the most recent thing I heard from a moderator. According to him, users with banned accounts weren't allowed to re-register at all, repeat offender or not.
 

kohla

Educated
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Roof of the World!
What is the point of arguing about Beth's privately owned forums' policies with a Beth drone ? It is just toeing the party line. Really, does anybody expect it to say anything else?
Frankie, the TES you love is dead and like someone suggested, get a hobby, or just come over here and post more often!
 

dongle

Scholar
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
838
Alexander said:
Well, I have been a member here for over a year, does that count for something? ;)
Depends, how many tubgirl link have you posted?

In your reply to Ghan you cut out the most important point:
GhanBuriGhan said:
So yes, they are in their right. But excuse me for thinking that it has made the place unattractive for discussion.
You defend the moderation of ESF on all his other points. So what if you have a petty justification for doing it a given way? Certainly it's your call, being they are your forums. Thing is; You're left with a bunch of morons, and the flaming, spamming, & trolling continue to spiral out of control with no let up. Meaningful discussion is non-existent. Can no one there see you're failing? Do you really enjoy the discussions there?

If all Bethesda wants is a bunch of mindless PR, just close the forums the fuck down, and have Pete post a blog every day.
 

Alexander

Novice
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
24
Frankie said:
I'm sorry, but that's pure BS. I filed my complaint about my original account getting banned. You know what I got back, the same thing Bethesda gives us regarding anything.... SILENCE. I still have no info as to why my originial account was banned, I still haven't heard from Bethesda about looking into why I was UNFAIRLY BANNED by that jerkoff. All I got was an e-mail from the Jerkoff who banned me and there was no reason as to why.


Sorry, but what you're saying simply isn't true. Now I'm not sure why you'd say something like that Frankie, since I always held you in higher respect then your present actions warrant. Though someone last night made an eduacated guess.

Now I could go on a bit of a rant here saying how many moderators contacted you prior to banning you, prior even to warning you, and all tried to stop this from happening. I could, but I'm not going to discuss your ban here in public, atleast not the details leading up to it.

Dongle said:
You defend the moderation of ESF on all his other points. So what if you have a petty justification for doing it a given way? Certainly it's your call, being they are your forums. Thing is; You're left with a bunch of morons, and the flaming, spamming, & trolling continue to spiral out of control with no let up. Meaningful discussion is non-existent. Can no one there see you're failing? Do you really enjoy the discussions there?

Hm, I don't agree. I'll assume from some of your comments that you've been on TESF for quite a while now, or were. Please think back at the time when religion and politics were still being discussed in the CD there. How many people got banned, and warned over such "meaningfull" discussions?

How many perfectly sensible people went off on a rant/ got involved in a flamewar/ started trolling such threads, simply because other members did not share their opinions in these two areas.

Yup, I'd love to be able to discuss the outcome of the next presidential election there, and I'm always in for a good discussion, but if I have to choose between being able to discuss those, and having to warn or ban people because they simply can't control themselves, and not being able to discuss them and at the same time not having to warn and ban members, I'll always go for the second option.

Monica21 said:
If that's true, then it's changed from the most recent thing I heard from a moderator. According to him, users with banned accounts weren't allowed to re-register at all, repeat offender or not.

It is true. Just like in my previous example where I mentioned we don't always follow each rule strict and to the letter, else we might have warned many more members, the same can be said here. We're not against giving people a second chance, not even when it's actually a tenth chance :)
 

dongle

Scholar
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
838
Alexander said:
I'll assume from some of your comments that you've been on TESF for quite a while now, or were. Please think back at the time when religion and politics were still being discussed in the CD there.
Had to check that; Jan 12 2003. I lurked for several months, so I prolly found the ESF two years before you did?

Don't think we even had CD then? Didn't care. I was in MW Mods, Lore, MW General, and sometimes MW Spoilers. Also hung on Hanna's forums. Her website was the only private site with a Google pagerank higher then my own on the keyword "Morrowind". Ask Miltiades sometime how much work I contributed to his Dremora Citadel project (that eventually became my own Battlespire mod) I like to think I helped that community along.

Used to be a fun place to visit. Some disruptive types, there always are online. Majority were good folks. I watched it fall apart, until eventually morons ruled the day, and an interesting discussion was impossible.

Alexander said:
How many perfectly sensible people went off on a rant/ got involved in a flamewar/ started trolling such threads, simply because other members did not share their opinions in these two areas.
You know what? The heavier handed the moderation got, the worse the forums got. I never saw a flamewar develop that wasn't directly related to a banning or a thread deletion. The more warnings, bans, and deletions dished out the more it spiraled out of control. Can't you see you're encouraging it, not solving anything? You're not winning.

Tons of good modders left in droves, some were banned. Do you think the loss is worth it?

Do you think the ESF is a better place now then when you joined up, and (relatively) free discussion was allowed?

Do you think all the banning and deleting is stemming the flow of retards?

Alexander said:
Yup, I'd love to be able to discuss the outcome of the next presidential election there, and I'm always in for a good discussion, but if I have to choose between being able to discuss those, and having to warn or ban people because they simply can't control themselves, and not being able to discuss them and at the same time not having to warn and ban members, I'll always go for the second option.
Ever thought of the third option? Just letting them fucking discuss it, and not banning anyone?

It's a discussion forum. Let folks actually discuss stuff, and everything you view as a "problem" will sort itself right out. Those "uncontrollable flamewars" will fizzle out in a page. By deleting them you just insure ten more pop up.
 

Frankie

Novice
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
79
Alexander said:
Frankie said:
We're not against giving people a second chance, not even when it's actually a tenth chance :)

I forgot to put this in my PM to you, why are my accounts getting banned on sight than if the moderators are willing to give people another chance?

I had a talk with summer after my 1st account was banned. She said I should make another one. I did. That account was banned, I don't know why.

Tell me why I haven't been given a second chance, or if I was what I did to blow it? I haven't changed the way I post since I started posting on those forums 7 years ago. Yet all of a sudden the way I post is no longer acceptable. Explain that to me.
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
Sorry Alexander, but dongle (and I) have both been around the ESF far longer than you, so we have more experience to draw on. Everything dongle said is correct. Over-moderation leads to pissed-off members, and the forums have done nothing but gone downhill, especially since Oblivion's release.
 

aries202

Erudite
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,066
Location
Denmark, Europe
Alexander said:
whitemithrandir said:
The pod casts are freely available for download for anyone who wishes to listen to them. There's negativity, but it's most definitely NOT disruptive or unreasonable negativity. There's some heavy criticism of the Star Trek: Legacy video game published by Bethesda, but that's hardly grounds for black-listing an entire bank of customers and potential customers, a vast number of which have already purchased the game.

If the podcasts would have limited themselves to giving constructive criticism about the game, and not more, then I don't think we would have been in this situation. Instead they also choose to use their podcasts to take personal shots at administrators, and moderators. They used loads of profanity and whatnot.

take for instance TESF, I don't think they've ever allowed people to link to sites which hold as much profanity as those podcasts. Nor have they ever allowed to link to movies which contain it. So going further along that why would the podcasts be any different.

The site administrators have said time and time again that the disruptive and threatening behavior exhibited by those members are NOT in affilation with the site as a whole. There are people from the Elder Scrolls Forums who come on to THIS site and make the same threats, behave in the same general trend of retardedness, and try to stir up the same magnitude of trouble as the black sheep of the Trek site that Bethsoft is using as an excuse to blacklist the entire community. Yet, here at the codex, we TARGET THESE MEMBERS when it comes to responsibility for their actions instead of the entire community that they happen to have an account under.

Bethsoft did the exact opposite.

I see your point, but do not agree. While it might be the case that the admins at the STG say the disruptiveness is not affiliated by with the staff of the forums, they certainly did nothing to stop it.

They've had posts that had the following;
- Bashing of moderators
- Bashing of administrators
- advocating piracy
- threaths to get into some organised trolling of the official ST forums of Bethesda
- Harasssing atleast one of the moderators through his private email address.
- Accusations that Bethesda had hacked someone's emailbox.
- And that's not even mentioning all the swearing and namecalling that goes on there.
And much more.

While the admins of the STG might not agree with the sentiments of their members, they certainly never did anything to stop them.

And yes, before you start, I could provide links to all the above cases, I'm a bit pressed with time right now but if you'd really like to get the links from me, please mention it and I'll go dig at them tonight.


You, me, and anyone who listened to those podcasts know that there's nothing in those podcasts overreaching into the realm of inappropriateness. They criticize the game by giving clear and present reasons - which are rational and valid.

Bethsoft blacklisted the site as a PR manuever - to suppress criticism and negativity. That's a stupid move from both a marketing perspective and PR perspective, in my opinion, but Bethsoft has every right to do it.

Just don't pretend it's some sort of move to "shield the poor, young, helpless minds of the ESF teens from blatant 18+ mature content".

...And if you truly believe the STG community site contains "inappropriate content and discussion", show me, and I'll show you the exact same content and discussions from some of the other fansites listed under the bethsoft official page.

Again, those links I fear will have to wait untill tonight when I have a bit more time. And if other forums contain similar things, then for one thing I must have missed it all this time I went there, and second it would mean we'd have to re-evaluate linking to those peticular forums and such.

Alexander :)

The thing I'm concerned about is that Bethsodft actually thinks it has the right to decide how content on another site (than their own) is moderated and what content on other forums than their own should be allowed.

The fact still remains that the STG forums as well as the STG site are paid for by ONE man only. It is not Bethsoft that pays STG's monthly or annual fee for webhosting
the STG website. And therefore, ot me, Bethsoftr can have absolutely no say in how
the staff, or the moderators choose to moderate a site which isn't under the control of Bethsoft.

And herein lies my problem...
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
aries202 said:
The thing I'm concerned about is that Bethsodft actually thinks it has the right to decide how content on another site (than their own) is moderated and what content on other forums than their own should be allowed.
And if you've been to the mods forum lately, you'll know that this is a growing problem, not just with other forums but with unofficial content as well.
 

aries202

Erudite
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,066
Location
Denmark, Europe
Alexander said:
Section8 said:
Tell me. Why should they? I'm sure their forums have their own rules and regulations, and just because they share the same internet as another forum with its own rules and regulations, I don't see why those rules should be inherited.

This isn't about what rules a forum must have, or even should have. this is about the staff of that site doing nothing against abuse directed towards another site, or members thereof.

I can understand if Bethesda forum mods object to directly linking specific bitch threads, but the idea of blacklisting an entire site because poor sensitive eyes might stumble upon "offensive" content somewhere within it is ludicrous. We're on the fucking internet here, where offensive content is never more than three clicks away.

I don't even think Bethesda has a duty of care for these people. Even if they did, how hard is it to include a disclaimer saying - "Bethesda are not responsible for hyperlinked content." You can still get rid of shock links and that sort of thing, since that's pretty reasonable moderation, but you can't save people from the internet.

Not that I believe that's the actual reason for the blacklisting, which jusitified or not, is shitty for PR if nothing else.

Under your very own reasoning, you're also saying Bethesda has the right to create their own rules as they see fit, and if that involves banning every startrek fansite then that would be ok.

Just hypothetical ofcourse, but I'm sure you catch my drift.

And agaain, please tellme why do you care??? Why do you and Bethsoft care about what is said about Bethsoft and Star Trek:Legacy in another forum which isn't owned or controlled by Bethsoft.

Sorry; i don't see it.

Last time I checked there was still something called 'freedom of speech'. And if you or bethsoft felt that the accusations and allegations towards Bethsoft were made unfairly, there are still courts in the land, who gladly will take on a civil court case against STG:
Legacy for slander or liabel.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how it is up to you or Bethsoft to decide what content that should be on other people's webistes nor telling them how to admin, moderate or run
their own website.

And I don't think that any thinking man or woman could be in any doubt that STG webiste isn't a part of Zenimax Media or Bethesda Softworks.

And: re: Star Trek: Legacy: I have read on the back on the box for the Xbox version when I last visited my local EB games shop. And all it said was something about, exploring, fighting, and hoe pretty the game looked. And out of curiosity, I bought the latest version of PC Player (a game magazine for PC players in Denmark), and their reviewer gave ST:Legacy about 5/10 .

Something is obvius wrong with this game...
 

aries202

Erudite
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,066
Location
Denmark, Europe
Alexander said:
GhanBuriGhan said:
Sure they can do what they want. In the end it's a private forum, and that's that. I don't have to like it, though. And to be honest with you, the moderation and rules at TESF is part of the reason why i hardly go there any more. I have seen several interesting discussions being closed on me because "this topic typically leads to flamewars, and we just had a similar discussion" - excuse me? I was talking here! I have been flabbergasted a while ago that posting an oblivion.ini file was suddenly illegal (something we did countless times for MW), and was rudely brushed of by CCNA for protesting, with the usual "mail the devs" comment. Which is something extremely Kafkaesque, becaust how many people got more than a standard answer of "we take your concerns seriously, and appreciate your support (now leave us alone, we are busy here)".

I wasn't around to see the pm CCNA sent you, so I can't really judge that. But I will say that I do think it's logical to close someone beforehand if you know it's going to turn bad.

Example; just about every thread dealing with platform X versus platform Y has turned bad. People had to be warned, sometimes even banned for things they said in there. And this happened, ten, a hundred times. If 100 such threads get locked due to violations of a rule, what's saying nr 101 won't turn into exactly the same thing, a flamewar?

Now ofcourse I agree it could go very well, people could be very civilised rather then flaming, but what are the odds? And then please consider the moderators and admins there, moderators are volunteerd, who get nothing out of the time they spend there. Admins do get paid but additionally have so many other things as part of their job that they're always pressed for time aswell. I can definitely understand someone closing a thread before it turns into a flamewar, especially when there's a 99.9% chance of it becoming a flamewar. And I'm sure some members who behaved very well in there, will be disappointed with it being closed down, but atleast that's better then having to warn a perfectly good member because he simply let sentiments get the better of himself momentarily in the heat of the moment.

And the whole roundabout banning of the Codex (and other sites I don't care much about) is just tedious. Yes, there is swearing here and sometimes unfair and outright hateful behavior towards Bethesda employees and moderators, but I don't see how it could not be handled in a case by case manner. Bethesda (and you moderators too?) have decided otherwise, and in effect the forums partly stopped being the free place of discussion I enjoyed.

And then there is the PC message - maybe they were banned for language and porn, but they also happen to be sites critical of Bethesda. It takes no genius to see that cries of censorship will follow - bad PR.

Bethesda admins will always make a decision to ban a site, as it's their forums. But as is the case with the ST forums I mentioned above, if the Bethsoft forums clearly state "no nudity and porn links" and people constantly link to a forum where you know goatse links and worse, will be posted constantly with no restrain from that forums leaders, I'd likely have made the same decision bethsoft made to ban the entire site.


On a different note: it's funny how much TESF flotsam has been washed onto these shores: Me, dongle, Monica21, Frankie, Stargelman... who else? Can you not feel the call of the dark side, Alexander? :twisted:

:P

Well, I have been a member here for over a year, does that count for something? ;)

I'm sorry, but I can't see the relevance of Bethsoft's forum rules being used to ban entire site, in this case, STG, just because, somewhere on that site, there could maybe porn or nudity links. Meaning not directlinking to these sites themselves, but through another website, which (still) isn't owned or controlled by Zenimax Media. (or bethsoft), and whose owner actually pays for the web-hosting out of his own pocket. He, not Btehsoft, is footing the bill...

I would like Bethsoft to calm down and brace themselves, and realixe that they are NOT responsiblem for the content on other sweb-sites on the internet. Posting a link to a harmless video on youtube or myspace would then also risk being banned, because you can risk seeing what Bethsoft deem inapproriate content on youtube --- or on the internet.

Face it, this is the information, and if someone wants to sue Bethsoft, they will sue Bethsoft, no matter how many disclaimers Bethsoft installs between itself and other
websites. (oh, while were on this: The NMA, and DaC also have links to what Bethsoft
considers inappropriate content. And my advice would be to not mess with these guys when FO 3 is released....for several reasons....).
 

Alexander

Novice
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
24
dongle said:
You know what? The heavier handed the moderation got, the worse the forums got. I never saw a flamewar develop that wasn't directly related to a banning or a thread deletion. The more warnings, bans, and deletions dished out the more it spiraled out of control. Can't you see you're encouraging it, not solving anything? You're not winning.

Tons of good modders left in droves, some were banned. Do you think the loss is worth it?

With all due respect, I believe you have the events backwards. Atleast judging from the time I've been there, to me it seemed things first got worse, and then the warnings and bans increased, not the other way around.

And I'm sure you don't really believe what you said at first there;
"I never saw a flamewar develop that wasn't directly related to a banning or a thread deletion."

If you look over the forums, on a day to day basis, you'll see flamewars erupt over all sorts of silly things; someone not liking someone else's character, something being said that was meant as a joke but perceived to be something different. Someone saying console A beats console B. etc etc.

Do you think the ESF is a better place now then when you joined up, and (relatively) free discussion was allowed?

I think the forums were quite different then compared to now. But I'm sure the same can be said when you compare 2002 to now. Back when I joined there were loads of spammers, trolls and the likes already there. Such people are there now aswell.

Forums change, take Bethesda, they went from a forum for two relatively unknown large games, and some smaller games, being TES I and II and redgaurd and such, to a forum also for Morrowind and Oblivion, which sold millions of copies, even to "mainstream" gamers. Between the time that I joined and now they've gotten over 7 times as many members. Going along with that number, I think it's safe to say the number of active members has also increased by such a number, and likely the number of trolls and spammers aswell.

So I'd contribute such change not to strict moderation, but rather to a giant increase in members.

Ever thought of the third option? Just letting them fucking discuss it, and not banning anyone?

It's a discussion forum. Let folks actually discuss stuff, and everything you view as a "problem" will sort itself right out. Those "uncontrollable flamewars" will fizzle out in a page. By deleting them you just insure ten more pop up.

I've never been against discussing things, I'm really always open to discussions and always enjoy them, but there's a large difference in a discussion say like this one, and two people calling eachother names because they don't agree with one another.

I'm personally very much against swearing and namecalling and such, both on the forums and in real life, and really don't see the need for some people to swear to get their point across.

You suggest simply letting someone go at it and do nothing, well I'm sure such things could very well happen on fan owned forums, but can you imagine the publicity for Bethesda if reporters stumble across the official ES forums and find nothing but people calling eachother all sorts of things. Bad publicity to say the least. not to mention in violation of their ESRB rating methinks.

Monica21 said:
Sorry Alexander, but dongle (and I) have both been around the ESF far longer than you, so we have more experience to draw on. Everything dongle said is correct. Over-moderation leads to pissed-off members, and the forums have done nothing but gone downhill, especially since Oblivion's release

Ah, If I came across as meaning you haven't seen much more of the forums then I have I must appologise for that. I realise you've both joined those forums far before me, and have seen loads more.

So obviously the things I say are simply what I've found during the time I've been there, or lurked there. But again, as I mentioned in response to Dongle, I'd say a perceived downfall might sooner be caused by the giant increase in members, then in a real increase in strictness when moderating. Atleast in my opinion.

Aries said:
The thing I'm concerned about is that Bethsodft actually thinks it has the right to decide how content on another site (than their own) is moderated and what content on other forums than their own should be allowed.

The fact still remains that the STG forums as well as the STG site are paid for by ONE man only. It is not Bethsoft that pays STG's monthly or annual fee for webhosting
the STG website. And therefore, ot me, Bethsoftr can have absolutely no say in how
the staff, or the moderators choose to moderate a site which isn't under the control of Bethsoft.

And herein lies my problem...

Any site is obviously free to conduct business as it sees fit, but what sense is there in allowing links to sites on your forum which do the exact thing not allowed on your forum?

As to if I care what's said about me on another site, ofcourse I care, so would Bethesda, if I read sites saying what a bleeping bleep bleephead I am, that's not going to make my day I can assure you.

Freedom of speech? Yup, but not on a privately owned forum. You knew that when you signed up to TESF. Despite that though, As I've said before, I don't think anyone's been banned before for simply giving their opinion on something.
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
Alexander said:
Any site is obviously free to conduct business as it sees fit, but what sense is there in allowing links to sites on your forum which do the exact thing not allowed on your forum?
Uh, because you're not responsible for content on other sites? Do I seriously need to explain that? Everyone knows that. This is the internet, Alexander, not grandma's house. :roll:
 

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
Alexander said:
I've never been against discussing things, I'm really always open to discussions and always enjoy them, but there's a large difference in a discussion say like this one, and two people calling eachother names because they don't agree with one another.
And you don't wonder why you can have a civilised discussion here at the Codex of all places, but not at the TES forums?
 

Alexander

Novice
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
24
Monica21 said:
Uh, because you're not responsible for content on other sites? Do I seriously need to explain that? Everyone knows that. This is the internet, Alexander, not grandma's house. :roll:

But then going along with what you're saying, despite the fact that the ESF only has a 13+ ESRB rating, there would be no problem with linking people to all sorts of nasty sites, porn, shockers, torture, the works. "because you're not responsible for content on other sites"

Sorry Monica, but I don't think that reasoning really works.

And you don't wonder why you can have a civilised discussion here at the Codex of all places, but not at the TES forums?

I never said I wasn't able to have a good discussion over there. Those are your words, not mine. We can still have a good discussion there, and here. The difference however is likely that here in the middle of a discussion, shockporn links will be posted and that's not allowed over there. ;)

And ofcourse the fact that here people can easily get away with calling people all sorts of names, and there people can't.
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
Alexander said:
Monica21 said:
Uh, because you're not responsible for content on other sites? Do I seriously need to explain that? Everyone knows that. This is the internet, Alexander, not grandma's house. :roll:

But then going along with what you're saying, despite the fact that the ESF only has a 13+ ESRB rating, there would be no problem with linking people to all sorts of nasty sites, porn, shockers, torture, the works. "because you're not responsible for content on other sites"

Sorry Monica, but I don't think that reasoning really works.
And I think you're taking that thought line entirely too far. Linking to porn sites is pretty different from linking to the Codex, SomethingAwful, DAC or NMA. The TOS covers porn sites, but it doesn't say, "thou shalt not link to sites that don't like Oblivion."

Alexander said:
And ofcourse the fact that here people can easily get away with calling people all sorts of names, and there people can't.
Sure they can. Do you read Powerslide's posts?
 

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
Alexander said:
I never said I wasn't able to have a good discussion over there. Those are your words, not mine. We can still have a good discussion there, and here.
Thats right, but do you really have good discussions about delicate matters like the forums policy and bannings over there? Links?


Alexander said:
The difference however is likely that here in the middle of a discussion, shockporn links will be posted and that's not allowed over there. ;)

And ofcourse the fact that here people can easily get away with calling people all sorts of names, and there people can't.
Well, if you watch the Codex regularly you will see that the good discussions here are not disturbed by shockporn.
 

Alexander

Novice
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
24
Monica21 said:
And I think you're taking that thought line entirely too far. Linking to porn sites is pretty different from linking to the Codex, SomethingAwful, DAC or NMA. The TOS covers porn sites, but it doesn't say, "thou shalt not link to sites that don't like Oblivion."

I agree that such sites are very different, but again if Bethesda is not responsible for the content of sites linked to, as you mentioned, then why shouldn't we be allowed to link to porn sites on there? I mean it's not as if bethesda's image will be affected by it, equal to linking to sites which have shock pics and very foul language, I mean so long as bethesda isn't responsible for their content....

Thats right, but do you really have good discussions about delicate matters like the forums policy and bannings over there? Links?

About policy, yes. I recall some very interesting discussions when Politics and religion were just banned.

About bannings? No, never. And discussions about that here are also never with moderators and the likes from the official forums, atleast not indepth. We simply never discuss such things out in the open, which I think is only fair, not only to the ones who did the banning, but also to the one banned :)
 

Amasius

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Amasius said:
Alexander said:
Thats right, but do you really have good discussions about delicate matters like the forums policy and bannings over there? Links?
About policy, yes. I recall some very interesting discussions when Politics and religion were just banned.
:lol:

Alexander said:
About bannings? No, never. And discussions about that here are also never with moderators and the likes from the official forums, atleast not indepth. We simply never discuss such things out in the open, which I think is only fair, not only to the ones who did the banning, but also to the one banned :)
Frankie disagrees...
 

JarlFrank

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Amasius said:
Well, if you watch the Codex regularly you will see that the good discussions here are not disturbed by shockporn.

Or he can just read through all the threads linked to in the Project: Monkey thread
 

Monica21

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Alexander said:
I agree that such sites are very different, but again if Bethesda is not responsible for the content of sites linked to, as you mentioned, then why shouldn't we be allowed to link to porn sites on there? I mean it's not as if bethesda's image will be affected by it, equal to linking to sites which have shock pics and very foul language, I mean so long as bethesda isn't responsible for their content....
Alexander, you're forgetting the "common sense" approach to a corporation hosting a forum. It doesn't make sense to allow links to porn sites, unless the corporation is a brothel. It's what reasonable people expect, not to mention that it's in the TOS. No one expects Bethesda to allow links to anywhere and everywhere just because it's the internet and you can google it. If we're talking about game companies, then the expectation is different. I would expect a game company forum to allow links to sites that discuss gaming, such as this one.

My response was to your post about allowing links to forums that don't have the same policies. What that means is that you need to read every TOS of every site linked to to insure it maintains the same standards of the ESF. I can tell you right now that DAC and NMA don't, and people call each other all manner of foul names. They don't adhere to the same TOS, but they haven't been blacklisted.

About bannings? No, never. And discussions about that here are also never with moderators and the likes from the official forums, atleast not indepth. We simply never discuss such things out in the open, which I think is only fair, not only to the ones who did the banning, but also to the one banned :)
Oh really? Well, I remember a few weeks ago a banned member's named being thrown around quite a bit by moderators and members alike. If you don't talk about it, then you don't talk about it period, and you don't answer questions about it when people say "what was that about?" Really, not good for you guys and I was disappointed.
 

mister lamat

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If we're talking about game companies, then the expectation is different. I would expect a game company forum to allow links to sites that discuss gaming, such as this one.

the 'expectation' is actually linking to sites that make them money in a manner they approve of. if it's not in a manner they consider worth linking to, they're not going to. even then sites like this one will still talk about the game... so it's pretty much win/win for them.

the 'expectation' is that they'll want to streamline and tailor the information regarding the product to fit with how they want it portrayed. it's called 'staying on message' and it's a principle of marketing. it works. linking to sites with 'critical analysis' or 'dissenting opinions' strays from that message and costs them money. for every one person who cares about their 'intarweb free speech!' there are ten-thousand who don't care about that person. those ten-thousand will always win.

I can tell you right now that DAC and NMA don't, and people call each other all manner of foul names. They don't adhere to the same TOS, but they haven't been blacklisted.

maybe they decided to pick on this site. they're free to do so and don't actually have to justify it in any way whatsoever. it's not going to cost them anything, other than their 'hardcore rpg fan street cred' which contribute about a millionth of what a shiny ad on gamespy will.
 

Monica21

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mister lamat said:
the 'expectation' is actually linking to sites that make them money in a manner they approve of.
I understand that Beth is operating in a free market economy and has every right to ban links wherever they see fit. My point about expectations is not where you're going though. My point is that no one expects a corporate-run game forum to allow links to porn. That is all.
 

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