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Shivering Isles fan Interview

mister lamat

Scholar
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
570
then you've got a great quality for making statements that wholly obfuscate and run counter-intuitive to what you're actually saying.

carry on.
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
mister lamat said:
then you've got a great quality for making statements that wholly obfuscate and run counter-intuitive to what you're actually saying.

carry on.
I think you have a great quality for wholly misunderstanding entire conversations. Since I can't be bothered to explain it all to you, I'll just recommend that you reread the posts, and also suggest that if you don't "get it" then you should stay out of it.
 

dongle

Scholar
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
838
Alexander said:
With all due respect, I believe you have the events backwards.
No, I watched it happen.

Alexander said:
Atleast judging from the time I've been there, to me it seemed things first got worse, and then the warnings and bans increased, not the other way around.
And did the heavy handed moderation help, or hurt?

You're more likely to find an interesting discussion there now?

Alexander said:
And I'm sure you don't really believe what you said at first there;
"I never saw a flamewar develop that wasn't directly related to a banning or a thread deletion."
Yes, I meant exactly that, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

OK, I'll grant what you call "a flamewar" would start up on it's own. If you simply can't bear a forum where folks hold differing opinions, then fine, ban 'em all. What I saw was a disagreement that would last a page, or two, tops. With the heavy-handed moderation in place these would be posted, and re-posted, endlessly. By shutting down arguments mid-stream you make them all the worse, and longer lasting. Just let them have a head of stem and they'll wear themselves out.

I never saw a scene that got truly out of control on the ESF that wasn't due to the initial argument being cut off mid-sentence by a banning or deletion.

Alexander said:
Forums change, take Bethesda, they went from a forum for two relatively unknown large games, and some smaller games, being TES I and II and redgaurd and such, to a forum also for Morrowind and Oblivion, which sold millions of copies, even to "mainstream" gamers.
Ok, grant you that one. Bethesda's current efforts at dumbing-down and mainstreaming what used to be a classic RPG series attracts a lot of clueless morons to your forums. Thanks for setting me straight there.

Save Summer's "you must accept change" speech for back at the ESF please.

Alexander said:
So I'd contribute such change not to strict moderation, but rather to a giant increase in members.
How so? You say yourself the "trolls and spammers" were there when you joined, and are still there now. Ok, you say the total number is more, but the same relative number. So what? You're admitting that the heavy-handed moderation does nothing, save to piss off your own customers. Is that a sound strategy?

Alexander said:
You suggest simply letting someone go at it and do nothing, well I'm sure such things could very well happen on fan owned forums, but can you imagine the publicity for Bethesda if reporters stumble across the official ES forums and find nothing but people calling eachother all sorts of things. Bad publicity to say the least. not to mention in violation of their ESRB rating methinks.
Ah, see now you're letting your ESF moderator training show.

What is the place? A forum where your customers can go to exchange ideas and enrich their experience using your products? Or a marketing vehicle to show reporters what a loyal ardent fan base you have? You've just shown me that your job as a moderator there is to prune the forums into a marketing tool for Pete. What possible reason would I have to visit a place like that?

I also suspect that when Pete gets wind of the fact that you're letting the cat out of the bag ESF moderators will be banned from posting on the Codex, same as the Bethesda devs were.

Here's a hint; Word of mouth marketing is pure gold. However you cannot bludgeon your customers into it. You're failing miserably at it.

Alexander said:
Freedom of speech? Yup, but not on a privately owned forum. You knew that when you signed up to TESF.
Yes, yes, of course we realize it's your forum, and you can run it however you like. No arguments.

What I'm saying is the way you've chosen to run it makes for incredibly repetitive, moronic, boring, discussions. A place I used to enjoy, but now holds no interest whatever for me. Plenty of modders I know, some of whom are present here, feel the same way. Is the place ricer or poorer for that? Are your products the richer or poorer for that?
 

HardCode

Erudite
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
1,138
Alexander said:
Example; just about every thread dealing with platform X versus platform Y has turned bad. People had to be warned, sometimes even banned for things they said in there. And this happened, ten, a hundred times. If 100 such threads get locked due to violations of a rule, what's saying nr 101 won't turn into exactly the same thing, a flamewar?

Well, Alexander, keep in mind that I respect you for all of the helpful posts you have made in your pre-moderating days (I hardly go to TESF anymore), so take this the right way ...

Why don't you moderators learn how to moderate a forum properly? Why close threads that are starting to flame up, instead of simply deleting those posts and leave the good discussion in? Why don't you delete the spam posts? Why don't you delete the off topic posts? Is it too much work? Tough. I was a moderator at a very, very busy forum that was based on a professional matter. We moderators worked really hard, and we always deleted the shit content of posts so that the good discussion was all that remained. And yes, the volume was similar to the ESF. The problem is that instead of putting water on the fire, the ESF mods just demolish the house.
 

Alexander

Novice
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
24
dongle said:
And did the heavy handed moderation help, or hurt?

You're more likely to find an interesting discussion there now?

I'm still not so sure the moderating there did get so heavy handed. Looking at myself and others there I really think we're sooner too lenient then we are too strict.

Yes, I meant exactly that, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

OK, I'll grant what you call "a flamewar" would start up on it's own. If you simply can't bear a forum where folks hold differing opinions, then fine, ban 'em all. What I saw was a disagreement that would last a page, or two, tops. With the heavy-handed moderation in place these would be posted, and re-posted, endlessly. By shutting down arguments mid-stream you make them all the worse, and longer lasting. Just let them have a head of stem and they'll wear themselves out.

I never saw a scene that got truly out of control on the ESF that wasn't due to the initial argument being cut off mid-sentence by a banning or deletion.

Then I fear we must agree to disagree.



Ah, see now you're letting your ESF moderator training show.

What is the place? A forum where your customers can go to exchange ideas and enrich their experience using your products? Or a marketing vehicle to show reporters what a loyal ardent fan base you have? You've just shown me that your job as a moderator there is to prune the forums into a marketing tool for Pete. What possible reason would I have to visit a place like that?

I also suspect that when Pete gets wind of the fact that you're letting the cat out of the bag ESF moderators will be banned from posting on the Codex, same as the Bethesda devs were.

Here's a hint; Word of mouth marketing is pure gold. However you cannot bludgeon your customers into it. You're failing miserably at it.

No that's actually not part of any instruction we received. It's just my own "common sense" No sense IMO to have a forum when all that happens there is flaming and the likes.


Yes, yes, of course we realize it's your forum, and you can run it however you like. No arguments.

What I'm saying is the way you've chosen to run it makes for incredibly repetitive, moronic, boring, discussions. A place I used to enjoy, but now holds no interest whatever for me. Plenty of modders I know, some of whom are present here, feel the same way. Is the place ricer or poorer for that? Are your products the richer or poorer for that?

As to wether or not the games have developed themselves better over time, or have increased in RPG elements or general elements, is really an entirely different discussion.

As to the forums, I'll say this again because I really do mean it. Things change, but at the same time stay very much the same. people get tired of games for whatever reason and will leave. new members will join. But really, on an internet forum, I do think there are only so many topics one can speak of before becoming repetitive. I don't think that has anything to do with bad management, but all the more with what is inevitable.

And no that's not a "Summer speech" That's my own speech ;)

Hardcode said:
Why don't you moderators learn how to moderate a forum properly? Why close threads that are starting to flame up, instead of simply deleting those posts and leave the good discussion in? Why don't you delete the spam posts? Why don't you delete the off topic posts? Is it too much work? Tough. I was a moderator at a very, very busy forum that was based on a professional matter. We moderators worked really hard, and we always deleted the shit content of posts so that the good discussion was all that remained. And yes, the volume was similar to the ESF. The problem is that instead of putting water on the fire, the ESF mods just demolish the house.

For you and others who really think this, I so wish you'd be able to look over a moderators shoulder just one day, or maybe just look into the trash section one day. And then I'm sure you'll see you're mistaken.

If at all possible I don't think there's a single mod who wouldn't rather delete the inappropriate content and then let the thread go again, unfortunately that's not always possible.
 

dongle

Scholar
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
838
HardCode said:
Well, Alexander, keep in mind that I respect you for all of the helpful posts you have made in your pre-moderating days (I hardly go to TESF anymore), so take this the right way ...
Wait, wait, HardCode is an ESF refuge?!? :shock:
 

dongle

Scholar
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
838
Alexander said:
You suggest simply letting someone go at it and do nothing, well I'm sure such things could very well happen on fan owned forums, but can you imagine the publicity for Bethesda if reporters stumble across the official ES forums and find nothing but people calling eachother all sorts of things. Bad publicity to say the least.
The more I think about this, the more fucking ridiculous it sounds.

You're worried about a reporter in the gaming industry visiting a gaming forum and finding members calling each other names ?

Calling each other names?

On the Internet?

Seriously?

Like that's never happened before?

No, you're worried about a reporter visiting the ESF and finding past customers who hate your products. Your pruning the forums to make Bethesda's fan base look better to the gaming press. You said so yourself. That's your job. Now you say you were never told that as a moderator, it's only of your own volition? :roll:
 

dongle

Scholar
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
838
Alexander said:
I'm still not so sure the moderating there did get so heavy handed. Looking at myself and others there I really think we're sooner too lenient then we are too strict.
Ok, you've completely lost me there.

Peace, out.
 

Avu

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
351
I know I'm new here though I've been lurking for a while but is it just me or does it seem odd to others that Bethesda officials become active on other forums just before one of their products is being released? I've read it happened here just before oblivion and happened with their start trek game too and then total silence... A last ditch attempt to turn some more "Maybe this time they'll get it right; look he seems reasonable and all not the kind of monster I have been lead to believe" people to the dark side and their collective pockets? Perhaps. Another wacko conspiracy theory? Maybe. Just seems odd to me that shivering stuff people are not going to buy is going to be released very soon coincidence?
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
Alexander said:
For you and others who really think this, I so wish you'd be able to look over a moderators shoulder just one day, or maybe just look into the trash section one day. And then I'm sure you'll see you're mistaken.

If at all possible I don't think there's a single mod who wouldn't rather delete the inappropriate content and then let the thread go again, unfortunately that's not always possible.
Sure it's possible, Alexander. I did it all the time. I remember having a few rotten apples in an otherwise good thread and deleting the posts or just the inflammatory content. No reason for a few people to ruin it for everyone. When the original rules about inappropriate content were defined, I used to delete links and PM members that it wasn't okay. I hardly ever gave warnings unless it was repeat behavior because the rules were still fairly new.

You can do exactly what HardCode suggested. It takes more time, but it's definitely do-able.
 

Alexander

Novice
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
24
dongle said:
No, you're worried about a reporter visiting the ESF and finding past customers who hate your products. Your pruning the forums to make Bethesda's fan base look better to the gaming press. You said so yourself. That's your job. Now you say you were never told that as a moderator, it's only of your own volition? :roll:

Nope, I do believe you're not really reading what I'm saying, but rather are reading what you'd like to read.

What I said was;
"You suggest simply letting someone go at it and do nothing, well I'm sure such things could very well happen on fan owned forums, but can you imagine the publicity for Bethesda if reporters stumble across the official ES forums and find nothing but people calling eachother all sorts of things. Bad publicity to say the least. not to mention in violation of their ESRB rating methinks."

All that's referring to is flamewars, and things not appropriate for a forum which has a 13+ ESRB rating. If you think I said anything like "getting rid of bad reviews" in there then you misread it I'm afraid.

And yes I do think that would be bad publicity, and no I'm not in any way related to Bethesda other then that I'm a moderator on their forums, and yes there is a no flaming rule made by Bethesda and yes we do enforce their rule.

And as to "That's your job. Now you say you were never told that as a moderator, it's only of your own volition?"
I must admit, I might very well have not made myself clear enough there. Pherhaps this is worded more clearly;
Though the rules of "no flaming" and the likes were made by Bethesda, and yes we do enforce their rules, I'd very likely enforce such a rule if it were not in place because it's my belief, my "common sense" if you will, that there's no point in a flamewar.

Once the flames start, discussions tend to lose content and tend to focus on personal attacks. IMO ofcourse.

Monica21 said:
Sure it's possible, Alexander. I did it all the time. I remember having a few rotten apples in an otherwise good thread and deleting the posts or just the inflammatory content. No reason for a few people to ruin it for everyone. When the original rules about inappropriate content were defined, I used to delete links and PM members that it wasn't okay. I hardly ever gave warnings unless it was repeat behavior because the rules were still fairly new.

You can do exactly what HardCode suggested. It takes more time, but it's definitely do-able.

When I said "unfortunately that's not always possible" ofcourse at the same time you can read that as "we do that whenever it is possible".

So yes, I think we do actually already do that :)
 

Bursk

Novice
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
10
I had some twats going off topic in a couple of my threads and Hannah very kindly deleted those posts and (I think) warned the people responsible not to do it again. The civilised discussion was allowed to carry on and went very well.

If it had been e.g. Summer who'd tended to my thread, it no doubt would have been locked.
 

whitemithrandir

Erudite
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,115
Hey guys? What is this place?

THIS
IS
RPGCODEEEEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

:kicks all you ESF fuckers down the well:

Seriously, let's talk about Shivering Isles.
 

cutterjohn

Cipher
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
1,629
Location
Bloom County
Admiral jimbob said:
First, Oblivion has more dialogue and books then our previous games, so I don’t see a shift there.

No it bloody didn't. More dialogue is a flat-out lie. More books, maybe, but... how many were new books? 20 of them? 25?
I put it rightup there with Oblivion is larger than Morrowind, when it has been objectively demonstrated via cell mapping, and subjectively demonstrated just by playing the game.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
27
raising the thread from dead.

2 Questions (one for the beth forums and one for for the sake of staying on topic)

1. Did anyone ever find out, why threads on the beth forums gets locked up after 250 posts (or something like that) ?

a. I heard it's to keep the "bandwidth" or the forum speedy, although I administered a large forum for 2 years and there is absolutely no correlation between long-threads vs. bandwidth/speed of the forum if we go by technical analysis.

b. Some idiotic idea invented by "rumors" ?


2. Shivering Isles will have mudcrabs also? If they don't then what will the people speak about 99% of the time instead?
 

aries202

Erudite
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,066
Location
Denmark, Europe
enchanted_eyeball said:
raising the thread from dead.

2 Questions (one for the beth forums and one for for the sake of staying on topic)

1. Did anyone ever find out, why threads on the beth forums gets locked up after 250 posts (or something like that) ?

a. I heard it's to keep the "bandwidth" or the forum speedy, although I administered a large forum for 2 years and there is absolutely no correlation between long-threads vs. bandwidth/speed of the forum if we go by technical analysis.

b. Some idiotic idea invented by "rumors" ?


2. Shivering Isles will have mudcrabs also? If they don't then what will the people speak about 99% of the time instead?

No, I don't really think that anyone knows why a thread gets locked after about 200-250 posts. But I do know that sometimes the admins one the TES forums allows a thread to go over the post limit. I have heard that the 'farewell thread to Grumpy in 2005 (I think) went over 500 posts and I remember that another thread in the fall of 2006 also went well beyond 200 posts. But it really isn't that big a problem, either the moderators or the people starting the original thread will just make a new one. I think the spoiler thread for Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul now has is 10 threads long or so. It really isn't that big a problem. If a topic is interestingly enough, then the topic will continue to grow in threads.

I do also think that maybe, just m,aybe, the admins of Bethsoft know that if and when a thread goes over 200 or 250 posts, people tend
to say the things over and over again, and then at some point someone will mention the nazis or Hitler or something like that. The 200 post limit to a thread or topic is what keeps the TES forums interesting as people knows this, so they will probably start a new topic or thread about something else or start a new thread about the same topic.

I have heard (by clicking on rumours in Oblvion ;) - not really ;) ) that it is done to keep the forum bandwidth speedy. I don't really understand why this is, but neither does anyone really know how much space there really is on the Bethsoft servers. But I know, from my stay on the TES forums that they do get a lot of traffic. And that they are many (new) topics and threads created in the course of an hour.

As for Shivering Isles, I haven't heard or read anything about the SI having mudcrabs.
If these Isles indeed do have mudcrabs I believe they would be of the Shivering kind i.e. they would be quite mad as we are in the land of the mad. [Think of SI as a land made by, owned by and played by - The Joker - (in Batman(tm) ) - then you will see that anything goes in the land of the mad - and that everything is turned upside down - or topsey-turvey - as the Brits would say ;) ].

Being in the land of the mad probably means that in Dementia you will have black sad and very unhappy mudcrabs while in Mania you would have sparkling, bright, probably multi colored mudcrabs that would attack you on sight with a very big grin on their (human) face. Provided, of course, that there are mudcrabs in SI - of which I really don't anything - about mudcrabs in SI - that is. [I know lots of other things, but that's a different story ;) ]
 

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