Should minimaps and compasses be gone from RPGs?

[rusty_shackleford]

They're not the problem, the problem is the GPS-tier quest/objective tracking.

And even that is not the problem, but rather having quests that boil down to "go to spot X". It's impossible to do objective-tracking in a game like Wizardry 7, for example.

Use a fairly recent example of this: TOW had quite a few quests that had multiple solutions, but typically only the most obvious one was put on your map. I wonder how many people missed a bunch of alternative solutions because they were just following their GPS arrow

 

[thesecret1]

I think Gothic 2 reached the perfect balance – they give you a map which even shows you where you are on it, but it's an actual, hand drawn map (see picture). It tells you where you are in rough terms, but doesn't reveal how stuff actually looks like when you get there in person. It doesn't tell you there's a hidden cave nearby, it has blank spots, many routes are not depicted at all... You get plenty of exploration, without the hassle of getting lost (at the beginning. Later on, you have the whole thing memorised and need no map). The only quest markers you're gonna get are just small notes on the map, and only for a handful of quests, meaning the goal is somewhere roughly in the noted area. Really, I think Gothic 2 showed the optimal solution to this dilemma.

 

[Fedora Master]

Ideally features of the map and compass should be tied to skills like survival or streetwise.

 

[Catacombs]

Been playing Bloodlines and I like that there’s no mini map or faggoty quest markers. You get around the city by reading directions and looking at maps posted by bus stops.

Damn. That is quite immersive.

 

[barghwata]

I don't have a problem with maps, however it would be much better if these maps are integrated in an immersive way somehow, like maybe you buy them from a cartographer like in Gothic or something, you can abondon maps completely and go with the old fashioned way of asking people around and reading road signs but depending on the gameworld's size that can be tricky and can potentially make the game tedious.

Compasses are also fine as well, it really doesn't matter as long the game doesn't show you where the objective literally is, quest markers are actual cancer because they can put you on auto pilot where you're just basically running from one marker to the other without even caring about the quests you're doing and the quest becomes just another task to cross from your to do list instead of a story or an adventure.

 

[Lilura]

I mean, Bloodlines cities aren’t particularly massive or laid out realistically

That's right. It would be like making minimaps for minimaps. If you get lost in Bloodlines, you are a shit-tier gamer and probably retarded as well.

Same with Gothic and Gothic 2. Tiny games that don't need maps.

 

[laclongquan]

Case in point: VTMB sewers is just slightly more complex than a city quarter, and thus players complained about it incessantly.

 

[a Goat]

Voted for compasses but I prefer to follow the golden trail instead

 

[Damned Registrations]

Having the map tied to some sort of game mechanic, whether a skill or item or whatever, is generally pretty cool. Marking something on your map should either be something the player does manually, or is a rare occasion used as a reward, not the default way to guide the player. If finding a location is so fucking difficult it's unreasonable to expect the player to do it themselves, your environment is probably shit and needs more variation and landmarks. Something like daggerfall, for example, would be a nightmare without marking shit on the map. You can't explore that shit on foot. Especially if you don't mark the player's position. But that means all that space is wasted anyways- if the player isn't going to explore it, what was the fucking point?

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Ideally the game world would have enough of a coherent design that you eventually familiarize yourself with the surroundings and wouldn't require a map at all. It doesn't even need to have signs in the middle of the path, it could be as simple as leaving impressionable landmarks you take note of.

I still like the idea of unreliable hand drawn maps. Like if you were to obtain one from a shady traveling merchant that has you go deep in the woods where there is some alleged buried treasure but it actually leads you into a trap and bandits jump you to take your shit.

Minimaps are real trash though. There's no redeeming a minimap. It is the worst thing to put in an RPG.

 

[AdolfSatan]

Compass: yes.
Automapping: yes, but provided there's a justification for it, like a skill.
Everything else: no, piss off.

+1 to the request for a feature with sellers having fake, incomplete, or innacurate maps, the capacity to identify one as useless or not being tied to wisdom plus skillcheck or something like that.

 

[DalekFlay]

I hate mini-maps and compasses both, especially with quest markers. I love exploration, immersion and all this shit some people mock, sue me. Mini-maps and compasses are antithetical to those things. I mod them out whenever possible, along with everything else on the HUD except for a life bar.

 

[Eirinjas]

Entirely depends on the game. I made extensive use of the maps and compass in Ultima Underworld. I honestly don't think that game would be very playable without either, because there is so much back-tracking in a spaghetti-like maze and you are constantly being turned around.

 

[Gibson]

I hate mini-maps and compasses both, especially with quest markers. I love exploration, immersion and all this shit some people mock, sue me. Mini-maps and compasses are antithetical to those things. I mod them out whenever possible, along with everything else on the HUD except for a life bar.

what's wrong with a compass? so you check your map every couple of minutes in which direction you're going?
I get the dislike if you mean a "compass" in a sense that it's like an arrow poiting you directly to the quest (marker), but a regular compass? ain't nobody got time for checking a map every couple of moments to plot the direction

 

[Commissar Draco]

Present perfect maps with GPS are trash made for audience with game journalist level of skill, would prefer the system where you can either draw map by yourself with various results depending onto your dexterity and hand and aye coordination, with more fancy examples if you invested in cartography skills and if you are mage to boot with options to add some form of fast travel by map the way Arcanum had or just buy/find/steal maps once again of various degree of quality of course. You could amend those maps with your own pins and annotations showing secret you found (which again could be codded if you got skill to do so) and even sell them at the end of your adventure. But no big chance for this cause 99% of millennial gamers wouldn't find Caius Cosades Comrades.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Having to draw maps by hand would be a good reason to bring along an otherwise not so great character with you(e.g., some scholar archetype)

 

[Wyatt_Derp]

In-game maps and minimaps are fine, one just shouldn't look at them.

I miss the days of big ole' colorful, fold out maps that came with game discs. Found my Morrowind Solstheim map the other day. Beautiful lost works of art.

 

[Eirinjas]

In-game maps and minimaps are fine, one just shouldn't look at them.

I miss the days of big ole' colorful, fold out maps that came with game discs. Found my Morrowind Solstheim map the other day. Beautiful lost works of art.

Wizards & Warriors was probably the last game I bought that came with a useful fold out map. Both Icewind Dale's came with fold out maps (the first came with a nice cloth one!), but they were hardly useful.

 

[Sykar]

Imho Gothic did a good job in that regard. Maps gave you an idea where to go but did not give away anything else.

 

[Sykar]

Present perfect maps with GPS are trash made for audience with game journalist level of skill, would prefer the system where you can either draw map by yourself with various results depending onto your dexterity and hand and aye coordination, with more fancy examples if you invested in cartography skills and if you are mage to boot with options to add some form of fast travel by map the way Arcanum had or just buy/find/steal maps once again of various degree of quality of course. You could amend those maps with your own pins and annotations showing secret you found (which again could be codded if you got skill to do so) and even sell them at the end of your adventure. But no big chance for this cause 99% of millennial gamers wouldn't find Caius Cosades Comrades.

To this day I find it hard to believe that anyone with an ounce if reading comprehension failed to locate Caius Cossades. Back then my English skills were very basic and yet I still found him easily playing the English version just to practice the language while playing. I had a big dictionary laying beside me during my first playthrough.

 

[Surf Solar]

What kind of rpgs are we talking about?

Isometric games with a viewpoint above? Nah they dont need maps.

First/Third person ones? Yeah I think they do as its much easier to get lost in them and spatial awareness in a 3d enviroment is harder to get.

Compasses arent needed though

 

[commie]

I don't mind a compass for orientation and a minimap that is filled in as you go for old school type step blobbers where often it's hard to get orientation given the simple flat 'wall' graphics. There it makes sense. Sure, I also used grid paper back in the day, but a minimap which does the thing for you or you can fill in manually like in Etrian Odyssey is no real issue either. Just solves a bit of duplicated busywork that you might not have space on the desk for anyway or if you playing on the go. Minimap and compass direction could also be tied to a cartography skill like in Might and Magic(though compass maybe not as IRL, you'd get some idea by looking at the sky anyway so at least bearing based on this could be innate to the game, except underground).

In first person/third person ARPG types, I do like the Gothic option. You find a map, then you find better maps and by examining your surroundings you get an idea of where you are. Finding a compass could also be a QOL 'reward'. If you really want, the dev could include an unlockable skill for 'Godlike Orientation' where the player gets a triangle icon that moves in real time on the map as they move...but such a thing should be offered as a skill that wastes a skill slot so the player gets kinda punished for their laziness.

Depends on the game really...the easier it is for the player to get their bearings though in game graphics, descriptions, art, then the less need to put the easy mode of compass and minimap.

 

[Falksi]

Mini-maps are fucking rank, evil things. Lost count the amount of games you play looking only at that one small portion of the screen. So detrimental to immersion. Who the fuck in "ancient" times had a GPS? I'm a fucking adventurer, not a lorry driver you spoddy dev cunts. I should be looking at & soaking in the visual world around me, not constantly focusing on a 2-D representation of it.

Compasses? S'OK I suppose. Can live with them, but think exploration is better without them. Morrowind & Gothic 2 did exploration well for me. Map, reference to show which direction you're pointed in, and crack on.

Drawing your own map? As rusty_shackleford eludes to above, it's a trade in itself so is almost as daft as crafting swords as good as a top smith.

Also, if devs weren't lazy cunts it's be nice to see the inclusion of navigation by the stars.


Personally I'd like to see the Open World exploration formula to be as follows.......

1. You start with no map and have to get around via directions.

2. You can buy rough, Gothic 2 style maps of certain areas or employ/befriend a cartographer to help you make one.

3. You can navigate via stars at night, some quests & locations basically being impossible to find unless done this way (no map for the area, cartographer won't travel to that area coz it's a bad rep etc.). Trade off is obviously at night there's more/stronger enemies on the prowl.

4. Compasses which are magically linked. So instead of a NSEW setup, they give directions based on how the winds of magic are flowing. In practice this means that you navigate to certain locations 4th dimensionaly with certain locations appearing only when the time, place, events needed to make them appear all sync up. Would have to be a bit careful with this one to make sure it doesn't become choresome, but done right it should be fine.

Trouble is all of the above actually requires some effort/creativity/talent. And we've devs who think Kirkwall was good to "explore", and TW3 is the pinnacle of OW gaming, not a 100 hour cut-scene with fuck all of note worth discovering.

 

[overly excitable young man]

They both need to go.
In ELEX it was promised that you just have to deactivate them but that doesn't work.
They always have playing with compass in their mind and design stuff for it.

A lot of quests don't give a good enough explanation on where to go.
If both are gone the developers need to write good descriptions again like in Morrowind.

 

[Sykar]

That was a huge disappointment in Elex. Sure you can turn it off, but a lot of quests need them because the devs could not be arsed to give even the most basic directions