Should the player char be able to become more powerful than the most powerful NPCs?

[laclongquan]

There should be a script that will autolevel the final boss to yourlevel+1. THAT will drive powergamer boys insane.

/trolololo

 

[Norfleet]

It could even funnier than that. In addition to the boss gaining +1 level, if you level up in a place where the interruption won't cause a break in concentration (NOT in the middle of killing 2 out of 3 enemies or something), you can be treated to a cutscene of the boss guy levelling up with all the appropriate sparkle and fanfare you got...except he's doing something thoroughly mundane, like drinking tea, or taking a shit.

 

[MMXI]

Sorry about your love life.

Have I stumbled into GD by mistake?

 

[almondblight]

I would prefer an RPG without level progression, just letting me roll a character/party and play with it, without constantly decreasing the difficulty.

This. A thousand times.

 

[Berekän]

No, that's why he has a party

 

[Serious_Business]

Currently playing Skyrim again

my character has reached level 49

Interesting

What's up popamole Codex, where is your pride

eh i dont really give a shit

 

[laclongquan]

Or a boss with several cronies.

Start of final battle: Boss levelup=charlevel+1 "He has become stronger than you".

Kill one minion (hell, one harem girl): Boss levelup +1 "Pain and loss give me strength!"

 

[Johannes]

Most elegant would of course be to have the enemies gain strength as the gameworld time passes. Then you've got a real challenge, to gain power as fast as possible.

 

[kazgar]

is this thread pro level scaling?

 

[mondblut]

if you skip a dungeon and return to it later, it'll be a boring piece of cake.

That's the whole point, duh.

 

[felipepepe]

Question is, what means to be "more powerfull" ? Usually RPGs make enemies powerfull by giving them bazziolons of HP or damage, few of are those actuallty have dangerous abilites, once you leveled up they became all pushovers. The secret should be giving them powerfull abilites, so that they are always a threat, even if they die in one hit.... also, smart encounter design. Any PnP player knows how even low level kobolds can rape you in a well set ambush...

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Stats are there to represent a character's abilities and limitations, not to wank over increasing numbers and force the player to grind just to be able to kill slightly stronger monsters. The player is the one who should learn to play the game and overcome obstacles, not his character/party.

So no, I'm not asian, fuck character growth.

 

[DwarvenFood]

There should be a script that will autolevel the final boss to yourlevel+1. THAT will drive powergamer boys insane.

/trolololo

Isn't that the definition of level scaling ?

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

The problem of becoming too powerful in an RPG is that it totally breaks the logic of the game: if I can one-shot every single NPC and decimate entire cities on my own, I should have the option to not give a shit anymore and become King of the World, living in luxury and decadent filth with a harem of mesmerized vestal priestesses while eating swans and stuffed giraffe necks and not giving a damn anymore about a waterchip or the Eye of Kiln'Guur or such crap.

 

[abnaxus]

Currently playing Skyrim again, and it's not challenging in the least anymore because my character has reached level 49 and can kill even the most fearsome enemies in 3 hits.

Sounds like you're not powerful enough yet.

 

[mondblut]

Stats are there ... not to wank over increasing numbers

What blasphemy is that?

Next you'll claim strategy games shouldn't allow to build doomstacks that roll over everything?

 

[Norfleet]

The problem of becoming too powerful in an RPG is that it totally breaks the logic of the game: if I can one-shot every single NPC and decimate entire cities on my own, I should have the option to not give a shit anymore and become King of the World, living in luxury and decadent filth with a harem of mesmerized vestal priestesses while eating swans and stuffed giraffe necks and not giving a damn anymore about a waterchip or the Eye of Kiln'Guur or such crap.

There actually was a parody RPG that had an "Aww fuck it" ending path, where at the end, instead of picking between one side or the other, you just say fuck it and walk away to get drunk in a bar.

 

[MMXI]

Stats are there ... not to wank over increasing numbers

What blasphemy is that?

Next you'll claim strategy games shouldn't allow to build doomstacks that roll over everything?

Besides having stat-based gameplay, the other requirement for an RPG is character development.

Not necessarily. A bunch of games like Megatraveller doesn't have any character improvement and you're stuck with whatever you got out of character generator, but fuck me if they aren't RPGs. While building up stats is common, it is not mandatory.

Not to mention a single tabletop module which is not Monty Haul would rarely if ever involve a single levelup, so unless it's a part of a long campaign, you're again stuck with whatever you generated to the bitter end.

 

[Norfleet]

Character development doesn't necessarily mean building up stats.

 

[JarlFrank]

Personally, I'm in favour of a flatter levelling curve. You should start out halfway competent, and end up very skilled, but it should be impossible to surpass the most powerful NPCs in the gameworld. Why should you, in the course of a few months/years, become more powerful than warriors who have trained for decades and have been the unbeaten champion since many years, or wizards who have spent centuries studying magic? SUDDENLY, the player appears and surpasses their skill in mere weeks of doing fetch quests! Yeah, right.

Especially in action RPGs, where player skill counts for a lot, it wouldn't make those enemies impossible, but just make sure that there's always a challenge for the player. Same in party-based RPGs, where you can use the skills of all your party members and use combat tactics to defeat enemies who surpass you in raw power.

Flatter levelling curve that doesn't have such a huge gap between a low and high level player character, but still shows very noticeable progress (mostly in additional skills, spells, special abilities than just raw numbers, which prevents shit like HP bloat) would be able to solve this problem of overpowered PCs.

 

[Johannes]

Personally, I'm in favour of a flatter levelling curve. You should start out halfway competent, and end up very skilled, but it should be impossible to surpass the most powerful NPCs in the gameworld. Why should you, in the course of a few months/years, become more powerful than warriors who have trained for decades and have been the unbeaten champion since many years, or wizards who have spent centuries studying magic? SUDDENLY, the player appears and surpasses their skill in mere weeks of doing fetch quests! Yeah, right.

Because the PC is the Chosen One.

 

[JarlFrank]

But that's a shit explanation, it not only legitimizes removing all challenge by making player overpowered, but also makes the story shit.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Ultima did it right. In Ultima V, you can't kill Blackthorne, Lord British nor the Shadowlords by brutal force. Taking on the guards in a city is next to impossible to achieve except by using a humongous number of rings, potions, scrolls and consumables. You're still the Avatar, the Chosen One, but that doesn't mean that you can annihilate a whole city by yourself and with your party without exploiting the game mechanics like crazy.

 

[Tigranes]

What already exists in RPGs to an extent is that NPCs often possess skills that are not immediately comparable to the player's, meaning the kind of impact they can have on the story / villains / etc are different as well. Gandalf is obviously one of the better ones here - he has skills that are simply unattainable and different not only in degree but in kind from anybody else, but they are also limited in their own ways so he's not always a deus ex machina (mostly). It's just that in CRPGs, these kinds of differences are obviously hard to show up in gameplay, and only show up in scripted plot sequences (e.g. Irenicus isn't just a 18th level or whatever wizard, he can do screwy things with magic that requires centuries of research, but that all happens in plot).

I don't mind games where the strongest enemies are still difficult no matter how much you level up, but I think there are some more interesting solutions that have to do with this kind of difference. E.g. that enemy becomes rather trivial to defeat as you level up, if only for its special ability that bypasses resistances. (shitty implementation, but you see the logic.) E.g. instead of the typical plot hook "NPCs could help you but our hands are tied, you the Chosen One alone can defeat the villain", introduce situations where NPCs could help but quite simply won't, or the player can only overcome these challenges with help from NPCs, help that the player initiates rather than the plot and help that is actually occuring within the ruleset (rather than FF-esque 9999HP NPC jumping in with a limit break). Imagine a NWN2 Crossroads Keep like sequence where you are being invaded, and actually, within the in-rules combat, you can quite clearly see your party would be easily overwhelmed by the enemies no matter what level. That actual experience of realising for yourself you need the help of NPCs makes a difference, I think, rather than "Quest: Recruit 5 Dudes To Help That Won't Do Shit."

Final boss balancing has always been an interesting problem as well - you see games where it's profitable to grind in the final dungeon, where the final boss is weaker than various optional fights, etc. (Good example - FF7.) Devs are afraid to make final bosses unbeatable for the casuals, and are also too keen to try and make them 'special' (see: Risen 1). For especially that reason I've always been a fan of waves of enemies or some other kind of chaotic situation rather than a closed-room 1v1 battle with the baddie.

 

[markec]

Being stronger then anyone else would pretty much kill all the fun in the game, since the greatest sense of accomplishment is achieved when you overcome adversity not when you slaughter someone weaker then you. You should never become extremely strong unless you already start strong or the game is played trough a long time line. Even then you should meet stronger enemies then yourself, and beating them should be done by use of tactics, deception, party members and useful rare items.