Kaivokz
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,504
The aim of this post is to discuss how simultaneous action is represented in different game systems. I have distinguished between multiple approaches as follows:
Primary Battle Units (what moves through a map, level or dungeon)
i denotes that the primary battle units are individual characters or an individual character.
s denotes that the primary battle units are squads of individual characters.
b denotes that there is only one battle unit and it is a squad of characters (a blob).
Flow of Time
Real-time (RT) indicates that there exists a turn-order independent measurement of time.
with Pause (wP) modifies RT and denotes that the player can pause time on command to issue some or all commands.
Turn-based (TB) indicates that the actions of a battle unit are discrete and that there exists no turn-order independent measurement of time (but allows for characters with high speed moving multiple times in a round).
Active (A) modifies TB and denotes that while there is a turn-order independent measure of time, it is still unit dependent: each unit will have their own turn or action timers.
Phase-based (PhB) indicates that all units are given commands at once, which are executed simultaneously with the opponent's actions without further intervention from the player until the next phase.
Discrete (D) applies to PhB and denotes that actions are carried out discretely (one at a time, until all actions have been carried out).
Indiscrete (!D) applies to PhB and denotes that actions from all characters occur at once, with logic for conflicting or interrupting actions.
I will give a definition of each type and then list some examples.
iTB: Individual units move on map and battle-time is represented only by a turn order.
e.g. Gold Box games, Temple of Elemental Evil, Battle Brothers, Shining Force
iATB: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by both/either turn order and individual timers.
e.g. Tales of May'eyal, Divinity: Original Sin, other TB games with timed cooldowns
sTB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented only by a turn order.
e.g. ?
sATB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by both/either turn order and/or individual timers.
e.g. ?
bTB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented only by a turn order.
e.g. Final Fantasy X
bATB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by both/either turn order and/or individual timers.
e.g. Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy IV
iRTwP: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. The game timer can be paused to issue some or all commands.
e.g. Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, Grandia, Growlanser, Spellforce 1-3
Why is Grandia RTwP rather than ATB? I categorize the Grandia system as RTwP because there is a turn-order independent flow of time; characters move around the battlefield between commands and if hit while executing or moving to execute an action they can be countered (interrupted).
sRTwP: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. The game timer can be paused to issue some or all commands.
e.g. Ogre Battle I & II, Dragon Force I & II
bRTwP: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. The game timer can be paused to issue some or all commands.
e.g. Might & Magic
iRT: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. No commands can be issued with the game timer is paused.
e.g. Ultima Underworld, Anvil of Dawn, action RPGs and RTSs mostly fall into this category
sRT: A squad of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. No commands can be issued with the game timer is paused.
e.g. ?
bRT: A blob of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. No commands can be issued with the game timer is paused.
e.g. Legend of Grimrock
iDPhB: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold one turn at a time.
e.g. NAtURAL DOCtRINE
i!DPhB: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold all at once.
e.g. Flamberge
sDPhB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold one at a time.
e.g. Bahamut Lagoon
s!DPhB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold all at once.
e.g. The Last Remnant
bDPhB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold one at a time.
e.g. Wizardry, Etrian Odyssey, Final Fantasy I-III, Breath of Fire, Dragon Quest, etc.
b!DPhB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold all at once.
e.g. ?
If anyone knows examples that fall into categories which I have left with a '?' feel free to list them below.
All of these combat systems are ways of representing simultaneous action. Consider an arrow being shot into a tree. While the arrow head moves into the wood, the wood simultaneously parts for the head: there is no discrete causal order such that "arrow enters tree -> wood parts for arrow head" or vice versa; both must (by necessity) occur simultaneously. This principle applies analogically to combat: both sides clash simultaneously over a period of time.
Turn Based
Turn based games handle simultaneous action in the most abstract way of the three battle systems. This level of abstraction leads to the problem of asynchronous motion.
Example #1: Occupied Spaces
Alexander wants to move to position (3,4), but Brutus currently occupies position (3,4) and will not act until after Alexander. If a round lasts 6 seconds, Brutus is effectively frozen for those 6 seconds and prevents Alexander from moving, even if on Brutus' turn he will be running away from Alexander as fast as he can (which occurs during the same 6 seconds that have been abstracted into asychnronous turns). This can be solved by adding a "wait" command, but looking at it this way lets us see why a game would want a wait command in the first place: it is a solution for a problem caused by straying too far from simultaneous action.
Example #2: No Gradiation of Character Speed
If Brutus has 8378 initiative, Alexander has 8379, and Claude has 198737 (lower being faster), then Brutus will act before Alexander moves an inch, and even further Alexander and Claude have the same effective initiative on Brutus' turn, even though Alexander is 23.72 times faster than Claude and 0.0002 times slower than Brutus!
Example #3: Shared Intended Location
Alexander and Brutus both want to move to position (1,1). They both have the same movement speed over similar terrain. If their turn-order determiners are as in example #2, Brutus will reach position (1,1) before Alexander moves an inch. This is exacerbated by terrain height effects, where Brutus will take the high ground without any competition from Alexander.
There are likely more examples, but these three should do for now.
Phase Based
Discrete phase based systems are as abstract as turn based mechanically, however they force players to predict enemy behavior more than TB does as you give your entire party commands without knowing exactly what the opponent will do. This is an easy way of representing simultaneous action through limited player knowledge rather than sophistication of the model. Interrupts and reaction styled abilities are attempts to capture simultaneous action without sophistication of the model. This avoids some of the pitfalls of asynchronous motion (e.g. if all units are ordered to move at once, the problem of asynchronously occupied spaces goes away), but not all of them; there is still no gradiation of character speed. Depending on the style of game, it needs to solve the problem of occupied spaces (certain games like Wizardry have very limited locations which are not shared between enemies and allies). Games like NAtURAL DOCtRINE have a sort of engagement rule implemented if units collided while in motion.
Indiscrete phase based systems are the least abstract so far; the player both has limited knowledge of what their opponent will do (unless the game tells them, which it should not) and the all actions in the phase play out simultaneously, with game logic implemented for handling any sort of conflicting commands. (e.g. if a character is intercepted during movement, if two players are trying to move to the same location, if a player is stunned while casting a spell, etc.).
Real Time
These games have a running game-world timer which allows for simultaneous action with differing levels of sophistication. Skyrim has a very low level of sophistication (you hit them, they hit you; you act simultaneously but still disconnected from each other beyond spatial location). Kingdom Come: Deliverance has a higher level of sophistication (you are not only acting simultaneously, your actions are closer to being simultaneous like that of the arrow piercing the tree; you need to overcome your opponents' parries and vice versa, there is locational damage, etc.). First person action RPGs are very different from isometric party based RPGs, but their handling of time to represent simultaneous action is not (both have a constantly running game-world timer on which all combat takes place).
The primary difference I see is that in the former case, player skill is realized in the combat mechanics and strategic layer: how well they can execute various maneuvers and how well their build/equipment are planned out. In the latter case, player skill is realized through the tactical and strategic layers: how well they can manage a squad and how well their builds/equipment are planned out. Both solve the examples of the problem of asynchronous motion that I listed above (because there is no asynchronous motion) without needing bandaids like "wait" commands or actions that take certain "time units" during which they can be interrupted (like in Eldiran's wonderful Tactics games).
I think my ideal combat system would be one which combines the attempt at local simultaneous action of something like Kingdom Come with the larger simultaneous action of games like Grandia and Baldur's Gate and the phase-based resolution of something like Flamberge or The Last Remnant. An isometric indiscrete phase-based system with rules for locational damage (like AI controlled mini-Kingdom Come battles influenced by stats), unit collisions and interruptions, an involved system for determining parries/blocks, and combination moves between party members. A RTwP game with similar features might be better, but maybe harder to code since you have to accept player input at any time (though I suppose you could lock play input during certain interactions).
What do you think? Is simultaneous action important to you in RPGs? Do you enjoy games that try to simulate it, whatever their core system is, like Voidspire Tactics, Grandia, The Last Remnant, NAtURAL DOCtRINE, or the Infinity Engine?
Primary Battle Units (what moves through a map, level or dungeon)
i denotes that the primary battle units are individual characters or an individual character.
s denotes that the primary battle units are squads of individual characters.
b denotes that there is only one battle unit and it is a squad of characters (a blob).
Flow of Time
Real-time (RT) indicates that there exists a turn-order independent measurement of time.
with Pause (wP) modifies RT and denotes that the player can pause time on command to issue some or all commands.
Turn-based (TB) indicates that the actions of a battle unit are discrete and that there exists no turn-order independent measurement of time (but allows for characters with high speed moving multiple times in a round).
Active (A) modifies TB and denotes that while there is a turn-order independent measure of time, it is still unit dependent: each unit will have their own turn or action timers.
Phase-based (PhB) indicates that all units are given commands at once, which are executed simultaneously with the opponent's actions without further intervention from the player until the next phase.
Discrete (D) applies to PhB and denotes that actions are carried out discretely (one at a time, until all actions have been carried out).
Indiscrete (!D) applies to PhB and denotes that actions from all characters occur at once, with logic for conflicting or interrupting actions.
I will give a definition of each type and then list some examples.
iTB: Individual units move on map and battle-time is represented only by a turn order.
e.g. Gold Box games, Temple of Elemental Evil, Battle Brothers, Shining Force
iATB: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by both/either turn order and individual timers.
e.g. Tales of May'eyal, Divinity: Original Sin, other TB games with timed cooldowns
sTB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented only by a turn order.
e.g. ?
sATB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by both/either turn order and/or individual timers.
e.g. ?
bTB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented only by a turn order.
e.g. Final Fantasy X
bATB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by both/either turn order and/or individual timers.
e.g. Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy IV
iRTwP: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. The game timer can be paused to issue some or all commands.
e.g. Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, Grandia, Growlanser, Spellforce 1-3
Why is Grandia RTwP rather than ATB? I categorize the Grandia system as RTwP because there is a turn-order independent flow of time; characters move around the battlefield between commands and if hit while executing or moving to execute an action they can be countered (interrupted).
sRTwP: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. The game timer can be paused to issue some or all commands.
e.g. Ogre Battle I & II, Dragon Force I & II
bRTwP: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. The game timer can be paused to issue some or all commands.
e.g. Might & Magic
iRT: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. No commands can be issued with the game timer is paused.
e.g. Ultima Underworld, Anvil of Dawn, action RPGs and RTSs mostly fall into this category
sRT: A squad of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. No commands can be issued with the game timer is paused.
e.g. ?
bRT: A blob of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by a continuous game timer independent of turns. No commands can be issued with the game timer is paused.
e.g. Legend of Grimrock
iDPhB: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold one turn at a time.
e.g. NAtURAL DOCtRINE
i!DPhB: Individual units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold all at once.
e.g. Flamberge
sDPhB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold one at a time.
e.g. Bahamut Lagoon
s!DPhB: Squads of units move on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold all at once.
e.g. The Last Remnant
bDPhB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold one at a time.
e.g. Wizardry, Etrian Odyssey, Final Fantasy I-III, Breath of Fire, Dragon Quest, etc.
b!DPhB: A blob of units moves on a map and battle-time is represented by combat phases which unfold all at once.
e.g. ?
If anyone knows examples that fall into categories which I have left with a '?' feel free to list them below.
All of these combat systems are ways of representing simultaneous action. Consider an arrow being shot into a tree. While the arrow head moves into the wood, the wood simultaneously parts for the head: there is no discrete causal order such that "arrow enters tree -> wood parts for arrow head" or vice versa; both must (by necessity) occur simultaneously. This principle applies analogically to combat: both sides clash simultaneously over a period of time.
Turn Based
Turn based games handle simultaneous action in the most abstract way of the three battle systems. This level of abstraction leads to the problem of asynchronous motion.
Example #1: Occupied Spaces
Alexander wants to move to position (3,4), but Brutus currently occupies position (3,4) and will not act until after Alexander. If a round lasts 6 seconds, Brutus is effectively frozen for those 6 seconds and prevents Alexander from moving, even if on Brutus' turn he will be running away from Alexander as fast as he can (which occurs during the same 6 seconds that have been abstracted into asychnronous turns). This can be solved by adding a "wait" command, but looking at it this way lets us see why a game would want a wait command in the first place: it is a solution for a problem caused by straying too far from simultaneous action.
Example #2: No Gradiation of Character Speed
If Brutus has 8378 initiative, Alexander has 8379, and Claude has 198737 (lower being faster), then Brutus will act before Alexander moves an inch, and even further Alexander and Claude have the same effective initiative on Brutus' turn, even though Alexander is 23.72 times faster than Claude and 0.0002 times slower than Brutus!
Example #3: Shared Intended Location
Alexander and Brutus both want to move to position (1,1). They both have the same movement speed over similar terrain. If their turn-order determiners are as in example #2, Brutus will reach position (1,1) before Alexander moves an inch. This is exacerbated by terrain height effects, where Brutus will take the high ground without any competition from Alexander.
There are likely more examples, but these three should do for now.
Phase Based
Discrete phase based systems are as abstract as turn based mechanically, however they force players to predict enemy behavior more than TB does as you give your entire party commands without knowing exactly what the opponent will do. This is an easy way of representing simultaneous action through limited player knowledge rather than sophistication of the model. Interrupts and reaction styled abilities are attempts to capture simultaneous action without sophistication of the model. This avoids some of the pitfalls of asynchronous motion (e.g. if all units are ordered to move at once, the problem of asynchronously occupied spaces goes away), but not all of them; there is still no gradiation of character speed. Depending on the style of game, it needs to solve the problem of occupied spaces (certain games like Wizardry have very limited locations which are not shared between enemies and allies). Games like NAtURAL DOCtRINE have a sort of engagement rule implemented if units collided while in motion.
Indiscrete phase based systems are the least abstract so far; the player both has limited knowledge of what their opponent will do (unless the game tells them, which it should not) and the all actions in the phase play out simultaneously, with game logic implemented for handling any sort of conflicting commands. (e.g. if a character is intercepted during movement, if two players are trying to move to the same location, if a player is stunned while casting a spell, etc.).
Real Time
These games have a running game-world timer which allows for simultaneous action with differing levels of sophistication. Skyrim has a very low level of sophistication (you hit them, they hit you; you act simultaneously but still disconnected from each other beyond spatial location). Kingdom Come: Deliverance has a higher level of sophistication (you are not only acting simultaneously, your actions are closer to being simultaneous like that of the arrow piercing the tree; you need to overcome your opponents' parries and vice versa, there is locational damage, etc.). First person action RPGs are very different from isometric party based RPGs, but their handling of time to represent simultaneous action is not (both have a constantly running game-world timer on which all combat takes place).
The primary difference I see is that in the former case, player skill is realized in the combat mechanics and strategic layer: how well they can execute various maneuvers and how well their build/equipment are planned out. In the latter case, player skill is realized through the tactical and strategic layers: how well they can manage a squad and how well their builds/equipment are planned out. Both solve the examples of the problem of asynchronous motion that I listed above (because there is no asynchronous motion) without needing bandaids like "wait" commands or actions that take certain "time units" during which they can be interrupted (like in Eldiran's wonderful Tactics games).
I think my ideal combat system would be one which combines the attempt at local simultaneous action of something like Kingdom Come with the larger simultaneous action of games like Grandia and Baldur's Gate and the phase-based resolution of something like Flamberge or The Last Remnant. An isometric indiscrete phase-based system with rules for locational damage (like AI controlled mini-Kingdom Come battles influenced by stats), unit collisions and interruptions, an involved system for determining parries/blocks, and combination moves between party members. A RTwP game with similar features might be better, but maybe harder to code since you have to accept player input at any time (though I suppose you could lock play input during certain interactions).
What do you think? Is simultaneous action important to you in RPGs? Do you enjoy games that try to simulate it, whatever their core system is, like Voidspire Tactics, Grandia, The Last Remnant, NAtURAL DOCtRINE, or the Infinity Engine?
