Atlus Skipping Digital Devil Saga 1

[TheGreatOne]

I quit playing DDS1 quite some time ago and I'm wondering whether it's ok to skip straight to Digital Devil Saga 2 or not.
Like with DQ8, I got fed up with the constant random battles at some point. I cba to look up the exact name of the place at the moment, but the place where I got "stuck" was the area where you run around on a courtyard and there are multiple gates (numbered 01, 02...) that you have to open by pushing switches. IIRC, I killed the leader of the gang inhabiting that area, there was a bat boss and I got the first additional party member just a while ago. Some door wouldn't open and I got "lost" trying to figure out what to do/where to go next and the constant random battles were really discouraging me to do any kind of exploration and ever since saving and quitting, I haven't had the motivation to continue. Whiny casual 1st world problems

So, do I miss anything awesome by not following the game through the end? DDS2 is the only direct sequel in the entire series besides FES to my knowledge which is quite unfortunate. Are there any really cool and surreal locations later on in DDS1, like at the end of Nocturne? Does the story get good? I didn't really care about it during my time with the game. I know Spoony (the internet game reviewer) said that the story is interesting ("like Matrix, just told well", or something along those lines), but also that the conclusion/final boss is disappointing. Are there any challenging, exciting boss battles? I know that DDS2 or NG+ on DDS1 has allegedly one of the most hardest bosses in a RPG (atleast JRPG) ever, but it's because you need a lot of luck with RNG from what I've read.

How about DDS2. Is it better than DDS1? Enjoyable even if you haven't played the first one?

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Forgettable and not worth playing, plot goes nowhere and boring completely linear dungeons.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

DDS1 is basically Nocturne Light™. No demon fusion, an extremely simplified skill/leveling system, simplistic dungeons, optional content is extremely backloaded towards the tail end of the game, no different endings, and mostly unimaginative boss design.

That said, it's still running on the same foundation that made Nocturne's combat top notch among blobbers. And unlike Persona 3, the player can actually control all of their characters and develop them as they see fit. The Mantra Grid in DDS1 is rather boring in the way one progresses through it, but I do like the addition of elemental "shield" spells, and the way skill combos can work. For instance, having Dia on all three current characters enables a partywide heal spell with a defense buff built in...superb for lower level boss fights. Combos can also allow parties to use higher-powered elemental/mudo/hama spells than they normally would, and endgame (i.e. -dyne tier) spells can be combo'd into extremely potent attacks.

Dungeons are rather lackluster in DDS1, but they do become a bit more interesting later on with some rudimentary puzzles and exploration. Don't expect anything close to the Labyrinth of Amala, or things as clever as the Amala Temple or Diet Building (the puzzles in these arrows were absolutely devious in execution; amazing how much they did with so little). But some of the later dungeons are decent enough, with a few waterway navigation puzzles, or altering the "mode" of a dungeon to open/close passages.

One thing that bolsters the dungeon-crawling experience are improved random encounters. The AI has been tweaked a bit to perform more intelligently than that of Nocturne. While the enemies fangs, so to say, may not be as sharp as those in the Vortex World, DDS1 are scripted to fight more intelligently, disabling player characters and scoring the free criticals that come against paralyzed/frozen/petrified combatants. An interesting addition to the random encounters in DDS are the "mini-bosses", typically larger demons with a greater amount of statistical muscle than local peers and who often come equipped with two press-turns of their own, like many bosses in Nocturne did, as well as some decent skills and scripts. These are a neat addition that help shake things up a bit when crawling through dungeons.

Boss fights are okay in DDS1. The first few bosses lean far too much on using the proper elemental shields to nullify their attacks (and press-turns) and then striking with the correct element. Some of the lategame bosses, including optional content, essential demand that you have certain immunities to fight. Nocturne did a little bit of this as well, but often all that decent players needed to do was swap their party composition around (assuming they roll with a balanced crew of demons) and slot in an appropriate magatama. DDS1 requires grinding mantras to unlock skills. This can be fucking boring. The rest of the bosses are decent enough, with a certain tri-headed one being a real standout.

The optional boss in DDS1 is utterly retarded, but I suppose it makes sense within the lore of the series, given that you are facing off against, arguably, the most powerful being to ever show up in a SMT title. It's not worth grinding through the game two times to play against; at least DDS2's secret boss is somewhat fair and can potentially be faced on the first playthrough.

Tangentially, DDS1 probably rivals Devil May Cry 2 as far as having a soundtrack of a quality that far exceeds that of the actual game. Meguro was firing on all cylinders; the area background music is really something.



DDS2 is a lot better in many ways...provided you can play it on Hard your first time, which requires a clear save from DDS1. Hard difficulty adds a lot more kick to random encounters as well as bosses, forcing tighter play. As with DDS1, the random encounters are done well enough. Unlike DDS1, the boss fights are pretty great, with some interesting designs, including resistance shifting routines, interesting proprietary attacks/defenses, and the first real "party vs party" fight in the engine. Bosses are much less one-dimensional than those of the preceding game, attacking on different axes and having more interesting defense (like the aforementioned ability to shift resistances as turns go on or as they are struck by attacks).

The secret boss, only available on Hard mode, is actually fun in a twisted way. I actually ended up using a bunch of dice to track many of the boss states in order to make the correct moves every turn. The "rules" of the fight are a little too obscured for my liking (I had to resort to FAQs to figure out his elemental resistance shifting routine), but it's interesting enough once you know them. No real RNG-bullshit in this one either, but a serious amount of grinding is required. I cleared the previous secret bosses around level 68 and could have stomped the storyline final boss. DDS2's secret boss absolutely annihilated my party. Max level characters are pretty much necessary for most players (extremely insightful players, with in-depth engine/scripting knowledge can probably clear it at lower levels).

The mantra grid is a lit more interesting, being an actual grid rather than a series of linear progressions. Secret Mantra can be unlocked if the party, collectively, masters surrounding mantra. Progression is also a bit faster too, easing up on the grind factor.

Unfortunately, dungeon design took a dive from the previous games. There are practically zero puzzles or interesting designs besides a ripoff of the Lost Woods and a section that riffs off the Third Kalpa chase scenes in Nocturne. Overall, bog standard jRPG fare, quite a decline from Nocturne.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

This is why this forum is great, if you go on any other you'll see nothing but elogious praise and no mention of any of its numerous flaws.

Anyway what Atlus was attempting then was not going to work, they wanted to make Nocturne more accessible but still kept the game ultra-dark and disturbing, which would never fly.

 

[Average Manatee]

Overall, bog standard jRPG fare, quite a decline from Nocturne.

I agree entirely.

But, to answer the OP's question:

story

hahahaha

It's a pretty one-dimensional and generic kill-everyone-then-kill-god except with some hindu influences. The second game doesn't depend too much on the first story-wise (gameplay-wise importing your save game from DDS1 is essential to get hard mode unlocked as Edward states). A few non-party characters from DDS1 will be referenced but you aren't missing a ton. The character development in DDS1 basically boils down to "Why are we killing everyone? Should we really be doing that?" to which the answer is always "I dunno but lets keep killing everyone".

I wouldn't spend any more time on either game unless you really are hungry for the press-turn based combat of Nocturne in a new game that you haven't memorized 100% yet. If that's your thing then go ahead, the combat is still pretty decent overall and definitely better in DDS2.

 

[Whisky]

Well, Edward basically summed it all up pretty well. I didn't play the original, but the second one's combat was pretty decent. Normal press-turn gameplay like Nocturne, just lacking many of the things you expect from an SMT title like fusion. Biggest problem is that the dungeons are completely unmemorable, I can only really remember the prison with the jailer chasing you.

Major spoilers but contains a gameplay gripe:

Spoiler

The second game kills off your party members rapidly, making focusing on certain party members mostly pointless, including the one newly introduced party member of the game. Thankfully, I focused on the ones that live the longest, but it could be really annoying for some people.

More spoilers:

Spoiler

They all come back for the final dungeon though.

There's better PS2 RPG titles out there.

This is why this forum is great, if you go on any other you'll see nothing but elogious praise and no mention of any of its numerous flaws.

Anyway what Atlus was attempting then was not going to work, they wanted to make Nocturne more accessible but still kept the game ultra-dark and disturbing, which would never fly.

I dunno how things are now, haven't gone on one in ages, but back in the day even the Atlus forums were divided on DDS, and most agreed that Nocturne was worth checking out instead.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Thanks for the in depth answer Edward I guess I'll try DDS2 once I'm done with Xenonauts and Divinity: Original Sin, though I sadly can't play it on hard. If I like it well enough, I'll finish DDS1 later on.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

I had to cease my original DDS1 playthrough 5 years ago cause I temporarily lost constant access to my PC and was forced to use weak laptop so ended with watching remaining parts of DDS1 and enitre DDS2 on LP Archives and fight Demifiend and Satan with someone else's save files but now I need to finally beat it.

There's a question, few years ago I was able to kill Hitoshura thanks to Ragnarok, is this skill really crucial against regular endgame bosses? Right now I'm just after final Batman battle and game is piss easy so far, only King Frost (optional boss) is hard but I've tried to approach him without proper skills so...

Ragnarok costs 1.200.0000 Macca which is a lot and that's the last moment to switch Serph into physical fighter (now he has 40+ level, 90 magic and 60 vitality, the remaining stats are neglected).

 

[Puukko]

The game is medium difficulty but at least poses enough of a challenge not to be braindead easy. I do wish it had a proper hard mode or a hardtype hack. 2 has a hard mode at least which makes it a bit more difficult and the optional bosses are tough.

I never did the optional bosses in 1 (mostly because I was really confused how to unlock them as there was very little info around) so I can't speak for those but the base game absolutely doesn't require grinding for those strong skills. The only grinding I did was 15 minutes to get agi on all members for one boss.

Also, MAG is the strongest stat in DDS by far since it does double duty by affecting both magic damage and crit.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

Also, MAG is the strongest stat in DDS by far since it does double duty by affecting both magic damage and crit.

That's why I made Seph magic powerhouse but being able to to do heavy psychical damage + debuff at the same time is tempting.

You should really try to beat Demi-Fiend, incredible battle with, all those powerful stats and skils are necesasry not to ensure victory but to give player a 10% chance to win.

Meanwhile, King Frost is down after second try, geam deceived me with its easy level so I didn't bring up Rakukaja/Tarunda, with them fight is not hard, just drags for too long.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

This geam has biggest difficulty gap between regular bosses and optional ones ever, not only in MegaTen.

Story-wise last guy I defeated was Ravana who, thanks to Force Repel, basiacally killed himself. Mandatory bosses are laughably weak e.g. Cerberus died in like 4-5 turns from raw Cocytus.

On the other hand King Frost was strong, caveman Beelzebub was challenging but Fly Beelzbebub is just fucking nightmare. He wiped my party 3 times even though Serph learned Ragnarok. Guess I have to debilitate the hell out of him before starting doing any damage, another Mantra grinding awaits :/

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

Finished DDS1 few days ago.

2 skill are ridiculously OP:
- Null Attack - nulls ANY attack except or almighty, WTF? Just like final magatama in Nocturne but you can get it much earlier.
- Null Ailment - prevents ailments status, even from almighty attacks

Combinations of those skills makes you almost invincible. I finally killed Fly Beelzebub but did it fair and square, with those skills he wouldn't even make a scrath without Death Flies and some bosses has no almighty attack in their skillset!

I rate DDS1 at third place of most broken MegaTen chart, just after Innocent Sin (killing everything including final bosses with single Armageddon cast) and SMT1 (charm bullets to everyone!).

I've checked the list of DDS2 mantras/skills and there's no Null Attack available so I expect regular SMT challenge on Hard Mode.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Mostly agree but--

Progression is also a bit faster too, easing up on the grind factor.

DDS1 was easier to progress skills for me, DDS2 the grid system forces you to waste money and time grinding side skills to get to the ones you want. It also has much more difficult grinding setups, it's harder to feed on entire enemy parties and power-level quickly in DDS2 due to the way enemies are arranged, their collective resistances, etc. DDS2 also fucks with your party comp way more than DDS1 so you are constantly forced to re-level people.

Skipping DDS1 will cause you to miss out on a bunch of high-level skills in DDS2 that require import items from optional bosses in DDS1. You will also miss out on the ability to recruit a certain party member from DDS1 but since you have to level him back up from scratch that's more of a booby prize.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

You will also miss out on the ability to recruit a certain party member from DDS1 but since you have to level him back up from scratch that's more of a booby prize.

Wait, you say that new party members do not scale to Serph power level like it was in DDS1?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

You will also miss out on the ability to recruit a certain party member from DDS1 but since you have to level him back up from scratch that's more of a booby prize.

Wait, you say that new party members do not scale to Serph power level like it was in DDS1?

They may have a similar karma level but they don't come with any mantras. So you have to grind out all their skills again.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

MAJOR Story Spoilers for the party fuckery that happens in DDS2 (seriously, don't read this if you care about story AT ALL):

Spoiler

-In DDS2 Heat leaves and is replaced by a new guy. However if you import a DDS1 save with the correct choices and make the correct choices in DDS2 you can get Heat back and the new character leaves. Heat does not get any of the new character's skills. So unless you really like Heat you are better off keeping the new guy.

-Serph dies partway through the game and is replaced by Sera with none of Serph's skills. Then in the final dungeon the two combine and get both of their skills, but you have to grind up Sera in the meantime. Unless you go with completely different builds you'll waste money and XP on redundant abilities.

-Every party member dies during the story, before being revived in the final dungeon. So you're almost guaranteed to lose people you were building up and forced to switch to under-leveled characters.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

I know the story, read entire walkthrough on LP Archives years ago.

Question is, is there any point to grind before final dungeon? I'm gonna beat Satan.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I know the story, read entire walkthrough on LP Archives years ago.

Question is, is there any point to grind before final dungeon? I'm gonna beat Satan.

Probably not more than necessary for whatever boss you are on. I rushed to the end once I realized what was happening. The thing is even leveling in the final dungeon is a bother.

 

[ghostdog]

If you play with an emulator I'm pretty sure there are codes that can cut encounters by half and double the xp received, so the grind is greatly reduced.

[edit] I just realized I replied to a 2014 post

 

[Grampy_Bone]

RPGCodex is eternal. The flow of time itself is convoluted, with heroes centuries old phasing in and out.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

Can someone translate the moonrunes and explain WHAT THE FUCK has happened there?

Spoiler

In just TWO turns?

I couldn't beat that fucker few years ago using other's persona memory card, even killed Demi-Fiend but not that one.

 

[Puukko]

The double XP cheat code is bugged for bosses and Omoikane, where they give vastly more XP than they should. Beat 1-2 of the later bosses in the Sun and/or some Omoikane and you can massively cut down on the grinding.

 

[TwoEdge]

Can someone translate the moonrunes and explain WHAT THE FUCK has happened there?

Spoiler

In just TWO turns?

I couldn't beat that fucker few years ago using other's persona memory card, even killed Demi-Fiend but not that one.

It's right there in the video description:

"Took 328 attempts Turn 1 = Ragnarok - Ragnarok - Chaturbhuja - Power Charge - Power Charge - Power Charge - Charge Turn 2 = Divine Light - Divine Light - Divine Light - Impel Stone - Power Charge - Power Charge - Power Charge - Salvation - Divine Light - Divine Light - Divine Light"

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

It's right there in the video description:

"Took 328 attempts Turn 1 = Ragnarok - Ragnarok - Chaturbhuja - Power Charge - Power Charge - Power Charge - Charge Turn 2 = Divine Light - Divine Light - Divine Light - Impel Stone - Power Charge - Power Charge - Power Charge - Salvation - Divine Light - Divine Light - Divine Light"

Right. :autofacepalm:

I tought that Beast Eye equivalent would be present as some skill from expensive mantra but it's just an item (Impel Stone) that can be used only once and cannot carry more than one at the time - clever, skill would break the game even further.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

Ok, after moar the 5 years from last try I went with my 99 level party and cocky attitude against Satan and... cannot survive third turn :/

Demi-Fiend is definitely NOT stronger than that jerk.