So, anyone playing League of Legends?

[Darth Roxor]

Shen beats Teemo if you take a MR runepage. Very very simple tactic that Dyrus started using a long time ago vs Teemo

Because I can afford to buy a fuckton of runepages with random shit like full mres just to counter a teemo.

Also how are you going to quickly decimate creep waves unless you take an item like Sunfire Cape or Ionic Spark? (The former of which is actually useful on Shen since you get Health and Armor)

Since I usually get wit's end and triforce, I have enough AS to spam ki strikes like a motherfucker after popping feint. You also spam Q. And you get many sheen procs. Enough to beat through minions fast.

Who actually hard counters Shen?

Who counters current Shen, pray tell?

REDDING = HARD. It's not like I haven't mentioned Rumble and Yorick already, amirite? I also can't imagine Shen beating Udyr. Same goes for Lee Sin, Kennen, Cho and Vlad. And those are only off the top of my head. I haven't faced them since the buff, but they were enough to kick me around pre-buff, and I doubt much has changed since that.

 

[Grunker]

Yorick and Rumble do not counter current Shen. Are you basing this solely on your own experiences? From what I've watched, Rumble is completely destroyed by him, and Yorick can farm OK due to his really good sustain, but loses slowly since he's far more useless late game than Shen.

With Udyr I have to say I simply do not know, but they mostly do the same in the top lane, Shen just have the better values on paper and unlike Udyr he can harass and snipe creeps, and that's without mentioning Shen's presence in the other lanes.

An Udyr that is constantly a threat to every lane in the game? Sounds pretty fucking good to me.

 

[Grunker]

You should watch the newest State of the League show by the way: http://sotl.clgaming.net/videos/6-s...of-the-league-episode-23---shen-is-terrifying

It's title? Shen is terrifying.

They discuss Shen from 55:00 and forward. Note that I disagree on DoubleLift's view on Yorick.

 

[Phage]

Wit's End and Trinity Force are extremely sub-optimal on Shen, objectively.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yorick and Rumble do not counter current Shen. Are you basing this solely on your own experiences? From what I've watched, Rumble is completely destroyed by him, and Yorick can farm OK due to his really good sustain, but loses slowly since he's far more useless late game than Shen.

Yes, I'm basing it on my experience, and pre-buff, too, so I guess I might be wrong now. However, I don't see how Shen could suddenly slaughter Rumble top with the current buffs. Maybe feintspam, but I still don't see it. Still, might be wrong. As for Yorick, you are not supposed to just 'farm ok thanks to sustain', goddammit. It has to be a superaggressive lane. Spam those ghouls vs Shen all the time and he'll HAVE to play very defensively and lose CS.

An Udyr that is constantly a threat to every lane in the game? Sounds pretty fucking good to me.

Which was the same before. And odds are, if he decides to ult into other lane, you'll be able to get his turret. Also, the channel on his ult has been increased, and you can stun him easier while he does it (and it's very obvious that he started channeling).

You should watch the newest State of the League show by the way: http://sotl.clgaming.net/videos/6-s...of-the-league-episode-23---shen-is-terrifying

It's title? Shen is terrifying.

They discuss Shen from 55:00 and forward. Note that I disagree on DoubleLift's view on Yorick.

'you just spam Q and do nothing else, omg'

^ Shen pre-buff in a nutshell. Honestly, a LOT that they are talking about is 'Shen pre-buff in a nutshell'. This is coming mostly because Shen was very underplayed, next to nobody played him, and if someone did, it was a tard like TheOddOne who'd build nothing but HP and whine about no damage. Suddenly, Shen gets tweaks, everyone jumps on Shen, realises he's good, and he spearheads the 'meta' which is not prepared for him because everyone forgot what the fuck he can actually do.


Basically, my whole point is that Shen was already very, very good on top lane, but he was underplayed and overlooked. You might call him 'sleeper OP' or whatever, but most of the arguments people use against Shen's current state could have been applied in the very same way before he got buffed. That is all I have to say.

Wit's End and Trinity Force are extremely sub-optimal on Shen, objectively.

Triforce I can agree, I'm only using it in a very specialised build.

But wit's end? Get the fuck out.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Wit's End and Trinity Force are extremely sub-optimal on Shen, objectively.​

Wits end is ridiculously cost efficient. It gives you 40 magic damage, as much as a 1650 BFsword, on top of a negatron cloak and a recurve bow... Essentially if your bruiser have anything that scales with attack speed at all, you should build it. And new shen passive scales well with attack speed. You could probably get away with building wits end as your only offensive item and still have a good damage output.​

 

[Phage]

Alright, I'll redact the part on Wit's End.

My point was merely that the whole point of top lane shen is to split push nonstop, then teleport to the teamfights (or to safety). Sunfire Cape allows him to actually clear waves quickly, and the AoE damage component of the cape only costs about 700 gold I believe. It's pretty bad in most other situations, but as a champ with no AoE clear, you need an item like Sunfire or Ionic Spark (lol) in order to clear a wave very quickly.

 

[Grunker]

Shen pre-buff in a nutshell. Honestly, a LOT that they are talking about is 'Shen pre-buff in a nutshell'. This is coming mostly because Shen was very underplayed, next to nobody played him, and if someone did, it was a tard like TheOddOne who'd build nothing but HP and whine about no damage. Suddenly, Shen gets tweaks, everyone jumps on Shen, realises he's good, and he spearheads the 'meta' which is not prepared for him because everyone forgot what the fuck he can actually do.

Dude, are you seriously making the case that the buffs are insignificant in his early and mid-game?

If you are: wow. If you're not, then you are constradicting yourself by saying that he was crazy-good before but he shouldn't be nerfed now.

No matter what, you again put your own opinion, formed strictly in your own meta, in front of everyone else's. And no, I'm not saying "listen to the pros and agree" - there is a thick line between that and saying "listen to someone else too".

Furthermore, I have played a fuckton of GP top, and vs. a lot of Shens too. It has always been easy - Shen simply didn't have the numbers to lane against me. Now, it is impossible. There is literally nothing I can do versus a Shen that knows what the fuck he is doing. This example illustrates pretty well the flaw in your "he was always like this argument" - of course he could do it all before, but they've made him do it all MUCH, MUCH better. Saying otherwise is simply untrue

 

[Hellraiser]

Alright, I'll redact the part on Wit's End.

My point was merely that the whole point of top lane shen is to split push nonstop, then teleport to the teamfights (or to safety). Sunfire Cape allows him to actually clear waves quickly, and the AoE damage component of the cape only costs about 700 gold I believe. It's pretty bad in most other situations, but as a champ with no AoE clear, you need an item like Sunfire or Ionic Spark (lol) in order to clear a wave very quickly.

For one it costs 800 gold which is why that item is so inefficient in the first place. You pay 800 gold for 40 damage per second which is next to nothing after mitigation. Ionic is in my opinion better on shen because for one you get +50% AS and health on one item both of which have synergy with his passive. Plus you don't need to stand on top of minions to actually do damage. It is also a lot better in teamfights and you pay slightly less gold for the unique passive than in sunfire cape's case. It is not worth to get one if you are getting wits end obviously due to diminishing returns on AS, but if you do not need the mres it is a decent alternative that allows you to push better than wits end. Overall though wits end is a lot more cost effective for what it does.

Grunker: I know what you are talking about GP can't do jack versus shen now. You shield parley and just make him eat daggers all day turning it into a free farm lane.

 

[Ulminati]

Wits end is 42 dmg per attack @ 800g
BF sword is 45 dmg @ 1650g

Which is better priced and why? DICKSCUSS

 

[Darth Roxor]

Dude, are you seriously making the case that the buffs are insignificant in his early and mid-game?

And where the hell did I write that? The change to shadow dash and energy management finally made investing points in feint a good idea, thus making him more sturdy. But the general idea of 'throw daggers 24/7 while feinting/shadow dashing to safety' stays exactly the same.

If you're not, then you are constradicting yourself by saying that he was crazy-good before but he shouldn't be nerfed now.

He WAS good before for the same reasons he is good now - early game, early game, early game. And the problem is, I don't see how they COULD nerf him to not revert him back to the previous state or leave him as he is. The best would probably be removing the faster ki strike after popping feint, or upping feint's energy cost back to 45 'cause he now can actually manage energy. The two most important changes were probably the ki strike energy regain, equalising the taunt duration on shadow dash for all levels and its damage reduction. Hitting any of those (maybe except the DR, lowering it to like 33% instead of 50%? I dunno) with the nerfbat would revert him back to his previous state - poor energy starved Shen that shadow dashes into a dude, runs out of energy and dies, being useless late game.

You shield parley and just make him eat daggers

A self-shield is working as it should? Oh noes we can't have that, nerf shen!!!




Also, I have only one more thing to say: his damage output was almost untouched. Where are all those people now who said 'lololololololo Shen, just build a negatron and merc treads he's gonna be useless and you can laugh in his face ' those few weeks ago? Yeah.

 

[Grunker]

You shield parley and just make him eat daggers

A self-shield is working as it should? Oh noes we can't have that, nerf shen!!!

Sorry to say, but that answer speaks volumes mate.

He WAS good before for the same reasons he is good now - early game, early game, early game. And the problem is, I don't see how they COULD nerf him to not revert him back to the previous state or leave him as he is. The best would probably be removing the faster ki strike after popping feint, or upping feint's energy cost back to 45 'cause he now can actually manage energy. The two most important changes were probably the ki strike energy regain, equalising the taunt duration on shadow dash for all levels and its damage reduction. Hitting any of those (maybe except the DR, lowering it to like 33% instead of 50%? I dunno) with the nerfbat would revert him back to his previous state - poor energy starved Shen that shadow dashes into a dude, runs out of energy and dies, being useless late game.

You're not saying anything that relates to our discussion. Whether nerfing him will make him suck is not the point - you can't keep a champ unbalanced because a nerf makes him underpowered (case in point: vladi-fucking-mir). Besides, I don't think you're right; if they can make Vlad's kit sortta work (it works much better now than it has ever done) they can certainly get to a better place with Shen.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Udyr just absorbed all my vorpal blades with turtle stance

better nerf Shen!

You're not saying anything that relates to our discussion

Then what relates to it? I got lost somewhere halfway during the 'HE'S OP!!!!' 'NO HE AIN'T!!!!' "YES HE IS!!!' 'HE AIN'T!!!!!' ping pong.

 

[Grunker]

You lost one game against an udyr? My points are surely invalid!

 

[Darth Roxor]

YOU LOST ONE GAME AGAINST UDYR?! MY POINTS ARE SURELY INVALID!

UMG SHEN NO HARD COUNTERS NERF TO THE GROUND PLZ

 

[Grunker]

Be advised that I tabbed out of LoL while trolling Mjuul and therefore had CAPS LOCK on by default.

I apologize for any undue rage I might have imparted on your gentle soul.

That said, YOU ARE CLEARLY AN DUMBASS WITH NO UNDERSTANDIGN OF LOL LOL

 

[Grunker]

riot agrees i win a cookie

http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/29191/?p=1

Note that that is test realm notes, they're far from sure to be implemented in their entirety

 

[Lupus]

Lux
Lucent Singularity
Now additionally grants vision while in flight to its destination
Now starts its cooldown when cast rather than when detonated
Cooldown increased to 10 seconds from 9
Now displays a buff showing how long Lucent Singularity will last until it automatically detonates

Cooldown thingy is great! I'm pretty sure it's not gonna make her prime candidate for AP Carry role but it's a good change.

 

[Ulminati]

Who counters current Shen, pray tell?

nidaleegg?

 

[Azael]

Hmm... A slight Alistar buff, maybe I should try learning how to jungle the cow?

 

[Markman]

Just got Nautilus. Played one game and built him like a hybrid tank/ap. Worked good and we won at the end after long ass 50 minutes.
No attack speed to talk about(0.721 at level 18), but hes so full of cc that his weak dueling is made up in teamfights. Root, pull, 50%slow and aoe knockup causes a shitload of distruption.
Like a male Leona. Weak damage but good cc.
I dont know whos idea was to jungle him but I would find him underwhelming. Maybe if his E had 50% lower cooldown it would work.
Solo top or support bot its where hes at.

 

[Grunker]

Not only does Riot agree with me on Shen it seems, it's so bad they've actually released a hotfix:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=21253783#post21253783

Problem, Darth Roxor?

On a more serious note, it seems that the nerf isn't too bad. My bet is you'll still have a nice Battle Shen top, might hap we both got our way bro.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I don't see the point in hotfixes that changes the damage by like 5 on each level. I mean, now ganks that previously failed when the victim had 10 HP left, will succeed. Yay?

 

[Grunker]

Energy cost is the most important as I see it. What I don't get is the scaling fix. I mean, any nerf should hit his overpowering early/mid game, not his late game, IMO.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Problem, Darth Roxor?

Nope, because it was almost exactly what I advocated, too (increased energy cost for feint)