So, anyone playing League of Legends?

[Ulminati]

Grunker - if you know any places in denmark that sells those riot point cards I'll gladly brofist 975RP your way. I'm a bit surprised you haven't got him by now though. You've been playing for (almost?) as long as I have, and even with my break I have every champ except ezfail, 10 rune pages, a shitton of runes and about 12k IP unused.

 

[Grunker]

Ulminati: I don't know if you recall my humble beginnings in this game, but for the first maybe 500 games I was called feeder-Grunker . It wasn't until after Dreamhack I started actually trying to get good at the game. As such, I still live with something like 800 wins vs. 830 losses (I had a whopping 300 loss deficit ). That and I've probably played less total games than you. I have loads of champions, but never saw reason to buy Twitch. Also, I don't buy champs with real moneyz, only IP.

 

[Phage]

fuckin' hotshot.

 

[Phage]

seriously. that Olaf pick. unreal how dumb that was.

 

[Ulminati]

It's ok bro. In my heart, you will always be feeder- Grunker

 

[Berekän]

You're the one that's taking things up personal

Wow, wow, slow down, personal? I'm sorry if I hurt you Berekän, we're discussing on the Codex ffs

Poor choice of words on my part.

And Twitch's 3150 now If I remember right (which is one of the reasons I started playing him)

 

[Ulminati]

And Twitch's 3150 now If I remember right (which is one of the reasons I started playing him)

Grunker - Berekän is right. According to http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twitch_the_Plague_Rat the IP is 3150

 

[Juul]

Shyv can not turn invisible to bypass wards (or force the enemy to spend twice the amount of gold on more + more expensive wards since they'd have to ward both approach and the lane itself.

This is assuming that the enemy team will mass-buy pink wards, and not just rape you and set you behind the first time you pass one. People are warding anyway, supports will usually pink ward bot anyway, and it's not uncommon for top to do so too.

Once shyvana is in position in a gank, she does roughly the same damage as twitch, unless the enemy jukes around minions (twitch is ranged and less vulnerable to bad pathfinding) or flashes away (where twitch can still expunge). Although twitches early damage (lv 2-4ish, especially level 2) is vastly higher than shyvs due to attack speed steroid and expunge

This is the only valid point I've seen so far. Valid in the sense of comparing Shyv to Twitch. However, Shaco does everything Twitch does 2-4 better. (Except force someone to buy 1 pink maybe, range is not a concern cause of Shaco Q - oh and Twitch is better at scouting, no idea why you'd not just ward at 2-4 though)

Twitch can more reliably show up between the enemy and their tower, forcing them to move past him, whereas shyvana will often find herself catching up to enemies.

I'm assuming you're not talking about mid here, since there's barely space for Twitch behind mids tower and where he should be, except he's going fully aggresive or something, in which case, any jungler could show up behind him. For top, you could potentially show up behind the enemy early levels, if they're pushing (which most good tops will try to early on, in most situations - except when expecting lvl 2 gank or if SOMEONE on the other team has the ability to go invisible). After lvl 6, top, Twitch can be expected to be lvl 4ish. If a lvl 4 Twitch is willing to move in between top tower and a lvl 6 Vlad, Shyv, Garen, Lee Sin, he's got some balls. The level difference only scales in tops' favor from this point on.
I guess this leaves bot the most likely option for a kill (considering decent plays, mistakes do happen, but this applies to both lanes as well as the jungling Twitch). Bot also happens to be the most warded lane, and the most passive one usually, and first blood on bot lane are statistically proven to have little to no effect on game outcome. (My personal theory is that this is due to the passive play)

So compared to shyvana in the laning phase, twitch has better initiation/gapclosing (especially before top/mid have had their first bluepill), better stickiness and higher damage output. This equates a better ganking kit, a higher chance of getting kills during ganks and therefore a bigger likelyhood of getting fed.

In retrospect, Shyvana was a pretty horrid example, as she isn't a strong early ganker at all. But Twitch could be replaced by Shaco and make this whole paragraph more true.

In games where I farm instead I have boots + wriggles + 1x dorans + IE at the 24-25 minute mark.

In order for this to be true you'd have to have aqcuired 6825 gold by this point. You will have gained 1800ish gold passively as well as 475 to start with, so that leaves 4550 gold that you would have to get from minions or monsters. Jungle is worth less than lane in terms of gold, but to make it easier, I'm gonna use lane minions for reference (which is on average 22~ gold per minion, this is maybe even on the high side, since it's this early in the game). In order to get 4550 gold from minions you would have to have 206 CS at this point. I doubt it. Subtract 14 CS for each kill you have.

Also I can't help but comment that you're currently 3-8 in ranked with Twitch. I remember you as a decent to good player, so I assume this winrate is due to a champion problem and not personal skill.

 

[Phage]

'MERICA FUCK YEAH!

 

[Grunker]

Also I can't help but comment that you're currently 3-8 in ranked with Twitch

Obviously the team's fault, you idiot.

 

[Phage]

Thank god. America advances on in the battle for the fate of the world, and meanwhile you were all arguing over nothing.

 

[Juul]

Also I can't help but comment that you're currently 3-8 in ranked with Twitch

Obviously the team's fault, you idiot.

Low blow, I know.

Thank god. America advances on in the battle for the fate of the world, and meanwhile you were all arguing over nothing.

This is how I picture every American, in every situation, ever.

 

[Ulminati]

Argh. Last one then I really gotta close forum. I'm supposed to be working! :p

Shyv can not turn invisible to bypass wards (or force the enemy to spend twice the amount of gold on more + more expensive wards since they'd have to ward both approach and the lane itself.

This is assuming that the enemy team will mass-buy pink wards, and not just rape you and set you behind the first time you pass one. People are warding anyway, supports will usually pink ward bot anyway, and it's not uncommon for top to do so too.

If they don't (mass) buy pink wards, twitch can move in and do his stuff. Granted, twitch has to be careful when going in if he is unsure about the ward status. Hence my prior comments that he needs to coordinate ganks with his teammates.

Once shyvana is in position in a gank, she does roughly the same damage as twitch, unless the enemy jukes around minions (twitch is ranged and less vulnerable to bad pathfinding) or flashes away (where twitch can still expunge). Although twitches early damage (lv 2-4ish, especially level 2) is vastly higher than shyvs due to attack speed steroid and expunge

This is the only valid point I've seen so far. Valid in the sense of comparing Shyv to Twitch. However, Shaco does everything Twitch does 2-4 better. (Except force someone to buy 1 pink maybe, range is not a concern cause of Shaco Q - oh and Twitch is better at scouting, no idea why you'd not just ward at 2-4 though)

Shaco is more vulnerable to being spotted by green wards on his approach due to the low duration of his stealth. Not to mention the telltale red smoke when he does so. I know I always keep an eye on enemy redside bushes at early levels if they have a shaco.

Twitch can more reliably show up between the enemy and their tower, forcing them to move past him, whereas shyvana will often find herself catching up to enemies.

I'm assuming you're not talking about mid here, since there's barely space for Twitch behind mids tower and where he should be, except he's going fully aggresive or something, in which case, any jungler could show up behind him. For top, you could potentially show up behind the enemy early levels, if they're pushing (which most good tops will try to early on, in most situations - except when expecting lvl 2 gank or if SOMEONE on the other team has the ability to go invisible). After lvl 6, top, Twitch can be expected to be lvl 4ish. If a lvl 4 Twitch is willing to move in between top tower and a lvl 6 Vlad, Shyv, Garen, Lee Sin, he's got some balls. The level difference only scales in tops' favor from this point on.
I guess this leaves bot the most likely option for a kill (considering decent plays, mistakes do happen, but this applies to both lanes as well as the jungling Twitch). Bot also happens to be the most warded lane, and the most passive one usually, and first blood on bot lane are statistically proven to have little to no effect on game outcome. (My personal theory is that this is due to the passive play)

My approach discussion was in relation to top/bot. Although a mid lane that doesn't place a pink ward (and those do happen at 1400-1500 elo) is practically free lunch. Granted it requires some balls to gank top after level 6, but I am a very, very aggressive jungler. Again, it requires your teammate is on the ball but if twitch didn't fail his early ganks he does a very solid amount of damage at this point and an enemy who turns to trade damage with twitch instead of running for safety is likely to be killed by the combined output of rat + lanemate.

So compared to shyvana in the laning phase, twitch has better initiation/gapclosing (especially before top/mid have had their first bluepill), better stickiness and higher damage output. This equates a better ganking kit, a higher chance of getting kills during ganks and therefore a bigger likelyhood of getting fed.

In retrospect, Shyvana was a pretty horrid example, as she isn't a strong early ganker at all. But Twitch could be replaced by Shaco and make this whole paragraph more true.

I will still maintain that with his long-duration stealth for positioning, twitch has one of the strongest ganking kits in the current state of the game.

In games where I farm instead I have boots + wriggles + 1x dorans + IE at the 24-25 minute mark.

In order for this to be true you'd have to have aqcuired 6825 gold by this point. You will have gained 1800ish gold passively as well as 475 to start with, so that leaves 4550 gold that you would have to get from minions or monsters. Jungle is worth less than lane in terms of gold, but to make it easier, I'm gonna use lane minions for reference (which is on average 22~ gold per minion, this is maybe even on the high side, since it's this early in the game). In order to get 4550 gold from minions you would have to have 206 CS at this point. I doubt it. Subtract 14 CS for each kill you have.

Around 120-150CS (if I switch to farm mode I greedily farm lanes as well and chances are laning phase ended at the 12-14 minute mark for one lane at least). Also 1-3 dragons. Also a few incidential kills/assists. True, if I had gone 0/x/0 at this point I wouldn't have IE. But I don't.

Also I can't help but comment that you're currently 3-8 in ranked with Twitch. I remember you as a decent to good player, so I assume this winrate is due to a champion problem and not personal skill.

Most of my ranked games are played on NA these days. (Since that's where my team is). I think I've had ~20 ranked games on EUW since november. The main winrate problem I'm facing with twitch in solo queue atm is teammates who rage and decide to feed/afk because someone picked twitch. I'd say half the games I've had with him someone on my team went mental, regardless of how well or poorly I did. Finally, as I stated in a previous post, I am still learning my way around him. If you recall, I used to play everything BUT AD carries. They have always been my weakest role even though I had last-hitting down long ago. Finally, at the risk of repeating myself because I feel liek I've been saying this over and over, Twitch NEEDS his teammates to be on the ball when he ganks and that just doesn't happen at the GRUNKER level my EUW account is at. In premades where I can communicate and position with my BROs on skype, things are better.

 

[Phage]

Also I can't help but comment that you're currently 3-8 in ranked with Twitch

Obviously the team's fault, you idiot.

Low blow, I know.

Thank god. America advances on in the battle for the fate of the world, and meanwhile you were all arguing over nothing.

This is how I picture every American, in every situation, ever.

What is a joke!?

 

[Grunker]

What is a joke!?

The irony is strong with this post

 

[Phage]

What is a joke!?

The irony is strong with this post

Yo dog I heard you like irony so I put some irony in your irony so you can be ironic while you irony.

 

[Phage]

In all honesty, while the Koreans have very impressive technical skill and some decent tactics, M5 is just going to rip through them like a +5 flaming broadsword through butter.

 

[Juul]

Also I can't help but comment that you're currently 3-8 in ranked with Twitch

Obviously the team's fault, you idiot.

Low blow, I know.

Thank god. America advances on in the battle for the fate of the world, and meanwhile you were all arguing over nothing.

This is how I picture every American, in every situation, ever.

What is a joke!?

This is how I picture every American, in every situation, ever. <--- THIS IS

 

[Phage]

Juul why are you so mad?

 

[Juul]

Shaco is more vulnerable to being spotted by green wards on his approach due to the low duration of his stealth. Not to mention the telltale red smoke when he does so. I know I always keep an eye on enemy redside bushes at early levels if they have a shaco.

Shaco can gank from retarded angles, but granted Twitch can probably sneak past more green wards. The red smoke is ghey.

Around 120-150CS (if I switch to farm mode I greedily farm lanes as well and chances are laning phase ended at the 12-14 minute mark for one lane at least). Also 1-3 dragons. Also a few incidential kills/assists. True, if I had gone 0/x/0 at this point I wouldn't have IE. But I don't.

Greedily farming lanes will cripple someone else. Don't know what else to say about this. Assuming 2 kills and 1 assist during this time, that's roughly 35 cs less you'll need. It's still a LOT for a jungler. 3 dragons (which is the absolute maximum possible dragons at this point, assuming the first one is taken before min 6) going to your team before 24 minutes, is probably a win in most cases, no matter what jungler. Being realistic and assuming 1 dragon could have gone to your team at this point is 9 CS less. So are we around 170 now at 24 min as a jungler?

Most of my ranked games are played on NA these days. (Since that's where my team is). I think I've had ~20 ranked games on EUW since november. The main winrate problem I'm facing with twitch in solo queue atm is teammates who rage and decide to feed/afk because someone picked twitch. I'd say half the games I've had with him someone on my team went mental, regardless of how well or poorly I did. Finally, as I stated in a previous post, I am still learning my way around him. If you recall, I used to play everything BUT AD carries. They have always been my weakest role even though I had last-hitting down long ago. Finally, at the risk of repeating myself because I feel liek I've been saying this over and over, Twitch NEEDS his teammates to be on the ball when he ganks and that just doesn't happen at the GRUNKER level my EUW account is at. In premades where I can communicate and position with my BROs on skype, things are better.

I could see how team-mates morale could be an issue, as this seems to be a general problem at low elo ranges. (A guy is streaming only eve in rankeds, he's doing OK with her, but people will troll him all the time - guess he deserves it for playing eve though).
The need for team-mates to be on the ball applies to all junglers. You could say that this applies even more so for Twitch, but this does not make him a better jungler. Quite the contrary. I can't really comment on your NA doings, as I don't know the name of it.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not trying to bash you for playing Twitch, he's probably pretty fun. I'm just saying that every proper argument, which is not "But under very specific conditions he does good", but using actual data and realistic conditions, seems to point towards him being sub-par.

 

[Ulminati]

Grunker

Actually - on the topic of this. (Because it's going to annoy me if I don't post this) Stonewall's big list of jungle stuff actualyl sums up what I've been saying about twitch:

Yes, his speed is mediocre. But his ganking is very, very, very good. In a ranked game, he's a niche pick. But if the enemy picks a jungler that isn't a very strong duelist, you can really ruin his day with invasions from a twitch counterpick.

 

[Grunker]

This domain violates imageShack's ToS

 

[Juul]

Juul why are you so mad?

 

[Ulminati]

I'd also like to point out that I'm not trying to bash you for playing Twitch, he's probably pretty fun. I'm just saying that every proper argument, which is not "But under very specific conditions he does good", but using actual data and realistic conditions, seems to point towards him being sub-par.

My point has ALWAYS been that twitch is a really fun and very good niche jungler. I'm not saying he's the next lee sin. But he'll win you as many games as he loses you. In solo queue you will get trolled by your team. In a premade you will roflstomp otherwise competent players because he is consistently underestimated. A bit like how I was rocking with morgana mid in early S1 when everyone we played against claimed she was a support.

Grunker -- then go look at it on his blog at clgaming.net or fix your referrer headers

 

[Grunker]

Berekän and Ulminati

I'd also like to point out that I'm not trying to bash you for playing Twitch, he's probably pretty fun. I'm just saying that every proper argument, which is not "But under very specific conditions he does good", but using actual data and realistic conditions, seems to point towards him being sub-par.

Bingo.