So, anyone playing League of Legends?

[Juul]

In the sense that he counters them, yes.

I mean in every sense.

The immense CC he brings being one of them, I'm sure.

 

[Phage]

Someone's trying to argue that Renekton is a top tier top laner? This thread man. This thread.

 

[Ulminati]

Poppy is actually considered a fairly decent champion that's mostly underplayed because she takes some time to master.

Basically, champions for any lane fall into 4 categories, in decreasing order of viability. This is a simplification, but it's detailed enough to get the point across.

Safe pick, strong pick, counterpick, niche pick and other.

Safe picks are champions you can pick before the other team has picked something for the corresponding lane and be reasonably sure you will do well against an evenly skilled opponent. Examples of popular safe picks would be things like Irelia (sort-of), Riven (one of the safest picks out there), Shen (lol, free win), Gangplank, Olaf and Warwick. There are a few specific champions that may cause trouble, but nothing that will knock you out of lane.

Strong picks are champions that work well against a lot of champions, but may get utterly devestated by several very popular picks. As such, they are risky to pick blindly but will perform very well if you know what you're going up against. An example of this would be Renekton after you've ensured you won't go up against something like kennen.

Counterpicks are champions you pick after you've seen the opponent to specifically deny them their lane efficiency. examples would be things like teemo vs autoattackers like xin zhao/olaf/nasus. Nunu vs heimer (eat turet, lulz. Although if heimer's top you're probably not tryharding at herostratus level). Garen vs teemo etc.

Niche picks are picks that the entire team will have to build around, but can be effective if you do so. These are better if you're premade with a full group since puggers are unlikely to be willing to build around your champion. An example could be urgot, who has a ridiculously strong early game but falls off hard late, which may mean your team is short a proper carry if it goes past the 40 minute mark.

For the sake of argument, let us consider all champions that are completely unviable in a position (lol, solotop evelynn) as other.

I'd put poppy in the strong/counter box.

Someone's trying to argue that Renekton is a top tier top laner? This thread man. This thread.

Someone is trying to argue that Renekton is a viable top laner that will carry his weight if the enemy teams top laner is low(ish) sustain or has a weak early game. It's a fine distinction, don't strain yourself.

 

[Juul]

So we are discounting everything that happened at hanover, because it is not the current patch?

That's OK, but you must realize that the current patch has been around for a grand total of 14 days and didn't substantially change any top laners except shen, Irelia and the unused Jax.

It's hard to discuss how Renekton did in a tourney wherein he was barely played. The only thing we can conclude is that they didn't play him, but played Irelia A LOT.

I would also point out that according to your own assessment, some people are "giving him a second chance", which is something you typically give to disused old drunkards, not stars of the show quality people.

Irelia was a good pick because there were very few counterpicks to her, mening she was a relatively safe pick (Kennen had a shot at her, Olaf raped her and tiger Udyr would probably win too - pattern here?) Renekton fills a sort of similar role as Irelia (although more offensive), and with Irelia being nerfed, he's the obvious choice in her place. I don't see how this makes him bad. (Another situation: Vayne and Cait(?) got nerfed at some point, so people started playing Corki again, and look where we are now.)

Well if we are discounting Hanover, the largest and most competetive recent gathering, no I haven't seen a lot of tournaments since then. But if he is so stronk it should be easy for you to supply me with a tournament where he is dominating the pick/ban lists.

I believe you said he won 1 and lost 1 during Hanover. I honestly don't remember the games, although it was probably SK who played him, so I can't really comment on how he did. http://www.absolutelegends.net/The-Leagues-APL-AAL <--- This tourney is probably the best example. If you're really curious I may be able to dig up VOD's too. http://public.4pl.4players.de/index...rnierbaum-von-Play4Fame_5on5_March_Final.html is a pretty good example too. (Even more interesting, is the fact that 'Luna' a pretty unknown team won - though it may be because it's a pretty small tourney)

I did watch a couple games on Dyrus' stream however which confirmed my assessment. On a related note you can add udyr to the list of renekton hardcounters.

Tiger udyr, after wriggles maybe.

The problem with renekton diving the carry is that after his Q-W burst he is more or less useless for the rest of the teamfight, and typically he gets gibbed quickly after.

His Q and W are on a 9 second cooldown, not factoring in CDR. I don't see AP's being useless because of cooldowns. Besides, his autoattack isn't exactly neglicible either. I'm not sure why he'd be gibbed like you're saying, but even if he did and took out the AD carry I'd say he did fine. (Irelia is maybe a -bit- more tanky, and she doesn't get insta-gibbed after diving the AD carry, and she even has to stick on the AD for longer, as she has lower dmg)

He's still a solid counterpick to several popular top lane champs. You may be familiar with the concept of counterpicking.

More than that, I go so far as to only play the game mode that allows counterpicking. This also allows you to realize that there are many strong counterpicks that are also shit champions. Like, Poppy is a counterpick to GP and is absolutely ravishing Jarvan. We still don't say she is a strong champ do we? Thing is renekton can work if he has a set of extremely specific circumstances and will be bad outside of these.

I think Poppy is pretty fucking strong, but pretty niche too. Like Blitz.​

I can't help but feel you've 3 games with a Renekton who either got counterpicked or just derped the hell out, and now you're on some holy crusade to prove to yourself and others that he's actually bad o_O

 

[Juul]

Someone's trying to argue that Renekton is a top tier top laner? This thread man. This thread.

I don't think I ever even used the wording "top tier" as I've never argued that he is. Besides, I dislike the whole tier-mentality - picks are usually much more complicated than that.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Here's a novel concept: If you're enjoying a champ then that's enough.

I don't play for GRUNKERS nor do I play for money so I couldn't give a rats arse (Twitch?) if I win or lose. But more importantly: I went top lane against Kennen as Renekton and won. Derp Kennens gonna Derp.

 

[Ulminati]

Shit, you may just have blown herostratus and phages minds.

 

[Phage]

Shit, Ulminati's making random conclusions about me again

 

[Ulminati]

It seems fair considering you like to jump to often incorrect conclusions based on other peoples posts.
If you were a quality poster like juul who actually goes through the effort of trying to build up some points and bringing in supplemental info to show why he claims what he does, I might mock you less.

 

[Phage]

If you were a quality poster I might be offended as opposed to amused when you mock me

 

[Ulminati]

On the topic of quality posts and counterpicking: http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=16967

 

[Phage]

Anyways, I do believe that every single champion (even evelynn) has some viability in the right circumstances. Where tiers, imo, come into place is how frequently a champion is viable. Meaning - a top tier champion is almost always viable, thus is a valuable pick/ban in most situations.

 

[Ulminati]

I'm with juul in this that while "tiers" may be all well and good in a hypothetical theorycraft situation they're next-to-useless in an actual game.

It's really more a question of what is a safe pick given what you already know about the enemy team composition. For instance, Kassadin is a fine pick for mid if the enemy already picked kassiopeia. somewhat less so if morgana is still available. Thus, champions "tiers" are at least partially dependant on preexisting bans/picks. Likewise, assuming we're not allowed to discuss stuff that works - albeit suboptimally - but is really, really fun (since those posts tends to attract quality responses like " This thread man. This thread."), any serious tournament setting will see the tier lists some people love fly straight out the window. For example, how often have you banned Nidalee in, say, the last 3 months? how big is the likelyhood you would ban Nidalee if you knew HotshotGG was on the other team? The viability and strength of a champion - and thus its priority as a pick or a ban is dependant not only on the character itself and the enemy picks, but also on the enemy players. We can extend this to also say MF is an average AD carry on her own. But if she gets something like a galio, amumu, jarvan etc on her team to keep enemies inside her ult, she suddenly becomes far, far better in a teamfight.

Thus, a champions tier is dependant on what has already been picked/banned by the enemy (how safe is my champion), what you know of the enemy team (you're in a tournament, a strong yet easy champ is on the free rotation, someone dodged and you're requeued with the same people you just saw picking etc), champions your team has picked or may pick (synergies, force multipliers). Not to mention your individual skill with champions (practice) and how well you can expect your teammates to perform (premade mates, general elo level). Finally, the tier lists everone loves citing are usually written by 2k+ ELO players, while the vast majority of the people who cite them are 1500-1600 ELO or less. It's a safe bet that they may not be able to play some of the high skill ceiling champions to the level that earned them their list tier. (How often do you see tournament-level monsoon placements from janna in your solo queue?) Not to mention champions that exploit mistakes made by enemies (morganas Q-pool for instance) will get to do so far more often.

Given the amount of modifiers that will change from game to game that will directly influence the strength of any individual champion as a pick or ban, I think it is time to reconsider just how much stock to put in tier lists.

As an addendum, I'd love to hear under what circumstances you would consider evelynn viable. No mockery, I'd honestly love a chance to play her again without crippling my team.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Shit, Ulminati's making random conclusions about me again

Yes he is. How could anybody ever think that you have a mind?

 

[Ulminati]

Shit, Ulminati's making random conclusions about me again

Yes he is. How could anybody ever think that you have a mind?

You could say the self-proclaimed Kwanzania-lover just got....




Stereotyped

 

[Brotherman Bill]

It's hard to discuss how Renekton did in a tourney wherein he was barely played. The only thing we can conclude is that they didn't play him, but played Irelia A LOT.

Well that is the point isn't it? He is hardly played at all in high lvl tourneys. Considering he has been largely unchanged for a year, maybe that says something about his viability?

In Kiev it was the same thing. One single pick in the entire tournament.

As for Renekton as an Irelia replacement, that logic is kinda off. Irelia is weak early on and wants to hang back and just farm, Renekton is an aggressive early game champ that needs advantage in lane to be relevant at all. They do very different things.

His Q and W are on a 9 second cooldown, not factoring in CDR. I don't see AP's being useless because of cooldowns.

There are a couple of essential differences - well, really just one essential difference, which is that the burst is AD. This has the following implications:

First, it is significantly less useful vs bruiser and tank type champions because of the wealth of cheap and good armor items. Most bruiser can shrug off renektons burst and will beat him in terms of sustained damage and get the upper hand in 2 seconds, and outdamage him in the longer role. The good MR items are much more rare and are often bundled with less useful stats.

Second, glasscannon caster and AD carry type champions tend to have no MR scaling at all and are stuck at 30 forevah, whereas they usually scale up to around 80 armor. This makes renektons burst worse.

Also AP bursts tend to be ranged, and often have additional effects, and quite often less than 9 sec cooldowns. And magic burst tend to scale off AP which is cheaper than AD and benefits from deathcap etc.

I can't help but feel you've 3 games with a Renekton who either got counterpicked or just derped the hell out, and now you're on some holy crusade to prove to yourself and others that he's actually bad o_O

How much do you guys play renekton really? I mean no pros ever do and my own experience says hes bad, as does mathcraft. I have no idea where the entire "Renekton es strong" mentality comes from.

I'm with juul in this that while "tiers" may be all well and good in a hypothetical theorycraft situation they're next-to-useless in an actual game.

Not all champions are equally useful and their impacts on a game can vary. Heimer for example is a shit champion in most cases, but in certain very specific situations Dan Dinh can make him work. We can still say he's bad since he's so rarely useful.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I'm sure that if the pros suddenly jumped off a bridge, thus killing themselves, you'd be in the same abyss five minutes afterward. Why five minutes? Well, you'd have to defend their actions on a forum first so...

 

[Grunker]

I love that SV. Listening to those better than you = Blindly following them.

Rock solid conclusion.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

It is when the so-called argument thus far has been: "DUH PROS DONT USE HIM BRO"

 

[Grunker]

Not really. It's been one of the arguments.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I'm sure that if the pros suddenly jumped off a bridge, thus killing themselves, you'd be in the same abyss five minutes afterward. Why five minutes? Well, you'd have to defend their actions on a forum first so...

A hurr durr durr

At least the swede jokes turn out to be correct on the topic of average swede intelligence.

I also criticize the pros quite savagely from time to time btw, especially dyrus. Maw of Shittius and sunfire cape feature prominently here.

 

[Juul]

Well that is the point isn't it? He is hardly played at all in high lvl tourneys. Considering he has been largely unchanged for a year, maybe that says something about his viability?

Being unchanged for a year seems to say that he's pretty fine as he is more than anything... (Eve and Twitch being the odd ones out)

As for Renekton as an Irelia replacement, that logic is kinda off. Irelia is weak early on and wants to hang back and just farm, Renekton is an aggressive early game champ that needs advantage in lane to be relevant at all. They do very different things.

Have you even played Irelia? The most common misconception about her is that Irelia is weak early. Granted, Renekton is stronger, but she is by no means weak.

There are a couple of essential differences - well, really just one essential difference, which is that the burst is AD. This has the following implications:

First, it is significantly less useful vs bruiser and tank type champions because of the wealth of cheap and good armor items. Most bruiser can shrug off renektons burst and will beat him in terms of sustained damage and get the upper hand in 2 seconds, and outdamage him in the longer role. The good MR items are much more rare and are often bundled with less useful stats.

Are we talking lane or late game here? Also, it's not like he can't auto-attack. Also, armor lane items will typically be: Ninja tabi, Wriggles and atmas. Magic resists will be: Merc threads, with end and hexdrinker/maw. I don't see how MR items are more rare or less useful. Please elaborate?

Second, glasscannon caster and AD carry type champions tend to have no MR scaling at all and are stuck at 30 forevah, whereas they usually scale up to around 80 armor. This makes renektons burst worse.

This is done to compensate for the fact that AD scales with abilities as well as auto attacks. But this is not any different from any other AD bruiser.

Also AP bursts tend to be ranged, and often have additional effects, and quite often less than 9 sec cooldowns. And magic burst tend to scale off AP which is cheaper than AD and benefits from deathcap etc.

Price difference is again to make up for the fact that mages only damage through abilities. Most AD abilities have effects also (in fact, all of Renekton's does)

How much do you guys play renekton really? I mean no pros ever do and my own experience says hes bad, as does mathcraft. I have no idea where the entire "Renekton es strong" mentality comes from.

Have you just disregarded what I just linked about pros playing Renekton? I can't speak for your experiences, but I'd like a source or a recap of this mathcraft you speak of, before considering it as an actual argument. I played him loads in the past, just tried a couple of games with him today again (and failed one of them, in all honesty).

I also criticize the pros quite savagely from time to time btw, especially dyrus. Maw of Shittius and sunfire cape feature prominently here.

Maw of shittius? Really? Why do you consider this item bad?

Also. Just now, 30 minutes ago, CLG.eu scrimmed TSM. Wickd played Renekton against Dyrus' tiger udyr top. Renek obviously struggled in lane, but proved more useful in teamfights and was a deciding factor in CLG.eu's win.
While TSM has been strugling lately (less so after picking up Dyrus), they're by no means a pushover. So if nothing else, it atleast proves that it's possible to do well with Renekton, even when counterpicked.

EDIT: Also, holy ballz I'm bad at trying to use quotes.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I'm sure that if the pros suddenly jumped off a bridge, thus killing themselves, you'd be in the same abyss five minutes afterward. Why five minutes? Well, you'd have to defend their actions on a forum first so...

A hurr durr durr

At least the swede jokes turn out to be correct on the topic of average swede intelligence.

I also criticize the pros quite savagely from time to time btw, especially dyrus. Maw of Shittius and sunfire cape feature prominently here.

Human intelligence is a myth, stick to the program.... manboon.

 

[Excidium]

In the sense that he counters them, yes.

I mean in every sense.

The immense CC he brings being one of them, I'm sure.

You mean the 1000 range skillshot on a short CD that damages and slows everyone in a line and also happens to provide vision when it lands? It's p. good yeah.

Granted slows are the weakest form of CC available, but it's certainly more reliable than a melee stun that requires stacking a resource before it actually goes off. Riven' stun works in an area and also chains well with her other abilities so I'll give her that.

I've had 3-4 olafs top vs my Riven. I managed to kill all of then 1-2 times before level 6 so I had a comfortable lead on them before they got their CC immunity. Clearly Olaf is inferior to Riven. Since she has no mana costs, you can take 2 ranks in valor at level 2 and 4 and shield most of this true damage. If you Q away from his axes and bait his true damage with E he'll run out of mana fast, allowing you to counter-harrass with your E-W-Q combo. The best fun is when Brolaf takes exhaust and uses ult+exhaust on you after you stun him around lv 6. Flash away, valor taking his axe for no damage but getting the slow. 9 times in 10 he'll chase and you can turn on him and utterly wtf rape him the second exhaust and his ult time out. By level 9-10 he'll usually resort to stacking armor, but by then Riven should have won her lane.

Sounds to me like you just outplayed those olafs.

 

[Juul]

a melee stun that requires stacking a resource before it actually goes off.

Renekton's W stuns regardless of rage. It just stuns longer with 50 rage.