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Fallout So, Fallout 1....I'm raging so hard now.

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
But okay, if you admit the UI isn't very good, then what is your solution?

09A3cq5.gif


In all seriousness though, it's not that hard to get used to. Then again, using it will be second-nature to me for the rest of my life, so....
 

Broseph

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There are many Kodex Klassik games with worse interfaces than Fallout. Seriously. It could be improved, sure, but to say that it's a significant flaw in any way is just :retarded:
 

Infinitron

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On the left, you can select one of two weapons. Baldur's Gate is a much more combat-focused game than Fallout, yet the weapon selection UI is much smaller.
Fallout doesn't have weapon slots, it has item slots. You can put any item in those slots and use it. This is because Fallout is great.

Uh, okay? IE games have a separate set of quickslots for usable items.
 

Grunker

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Brother None said:
This is a half-assed and lazy deflection


Brother None said:
I'm just going to assume you guys are being hipsters and trying too hard


:lol:

Calls strawman - pulls one out of own ass. Brilliantly played, sir!

Brother None said:
beliefs such as "combat should be faster!" or "if I can't figure out this UI it must suck, let's give it bigger buttons and context-sensitivity!".

Yeah man, that's exactly what we've been saying! Your reading comprehension is off the charts.

Oh, wait, no, that's not what I've been saying at all. Shit. Two for two on bullshit strawmen.

Brother None said:
It's fairly typical that the loudest voices of the decline here are Codex staff, though.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/editorials/110615-game-of-the-year-2012.html

In short: Stones, glass houses, etc etc
 

MasPingon

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"Decline" is fast becoming a stamp you put on someone that disagrees with you, no matter what other old classics they like and regard as they should. Next someone is going to say that game classic connousiers like Sceptic or Crooked Bee are decliners because they dislike ToEE or some bullshit.

ToEE is not Fallout. As far as I remember Fallout was always valued here on Codex and every time some user came up with unjustified critique, Ubersturmfuhrer readily explained him how wrong he was in his opinion. The sad part is - now it's contrariwise, staff members are complaining about Fallout, while users are defending it. Nice to see such resistance against papamolization tho
 

Grunker

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Who here are agents of the decline - those who criticize a quote-unquote "holy" game, or those that outright claim a game is immune to any scrutiny?

Note that neither me or Infinitron are calling Fallout a bad RPG. We're saying it's vastly overrated with its position as the Codex' favourite. That this causes mass butthurt shows how much of a holy cow this game is. If this place is serious about the angle of critical thinking gamers, holy cows shouldn't exist.
 

tuluse

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Uh, okay? IE games have a separate set of quickslots for usable items.
Fallout doesn't make a distinction between weapons/consumables/other items. Everything is a tool to interact with the world.

You can say that adventure games already do this, but it's not really the same as having a consistent world you can try using rope on every imaginable object. Or just sit and listen to a radio you found to see if it picks anything up.
 

Infinitron

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Uh, okay? IE games have a separate set of quickslots for usable items.
Fallout doesn't make a distinction between weapons/consumables/other items. Everything is a tool to interact with the world.

Yeah, okay, I can see how that's kind of cool. Doesn't seem like a huge deal, though.

Whatever you want to call it, those slots could be made smaller AND more easily accessible. The button that swaps between the two weapons/items is especially silly. What, they couldn't just give you two smaller slots displayed simultaneously?
 

MasPingon

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Who here are agents of the decline - those who criticize a quote-unquote "holy" game, or those that outright claim a game is immune to any scrutiny?

Note that neither me or Infinitron are calling Fallout a bad RPG. We're saying it's vastly overrated with its position as the Codex' favourite. That this causes mass butthurt shows how much of a holy cow this game is. If this place is serious about the angle of critical thinking gamers, holy cows shouldn't exist.

That's not what I said. Critique is good when it's factual. We all know Fallout's faults, but this scale of criticism becomes an absurd. Also, I always believed Fallout is a game which most of Codexers put as an example of how crpg should be designed, so what you are saying here does not compute to me
 

Brother None

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Brother None said:
This is a half-assed and lazy deflection
Brother None said:
I'm just going to assume you guys are being hipsters and trying too hard
:lol:

Calls strawman - pulls one out of ass. Brilliantly played, sir!
That's not a strawman, it's an insult. Perhaps I should have noted so explicitly, figures you'd require the same level of simplicity out of a conversation as you want in a video game.

Yeah man, that's exactly what we've been saying! Your reading comprehension is off the charts.

Oh, wait, no, that's not what I've been saying at all. Shit. Two for two on bullshit strawmen.
And another half-assed and lazy deflection. Much easier than actually talking, isn't it.
Except I had absolutely nothing to do with that, and that has already been pointed out several times. You're a fucking idiot.

But okay, if you admit the UI isn't very good, then what is your solution?
Depends on what part of the UI you're talking about. Oddly enough the worst one isn't mentioned here, which is inventory, which lulz a scrolling list of huge icons what is this Windows 8.

There's honestly not much wrong with its skill interface in the way you're thinking, it doesn't require superfluous clicks and communicates its intents to you clearly, in big stonking great letters, with the only upgrade that'd improve it being a skill list usage from within dialog systems, but that is an exponential increase in complexity that is still beyond video games of this scope now, so it's hard to blame Fallout for it. With modern resolutions you could probably do more with it, such as having the skilldex as a permanent part of the UI instead of a popup (both clickable and with hotkeys listed), but it was a different time. By modern standards it's a bad UI, but it wasn't made in modern times, so c'est la vie.

But that is unrelated to your solutions, which are to have the game shout its intents at you through context-sensitivity and relative UI sizes. But it's part of the game to refuse to tell you what skills to use and when. It doesn't *want* to tell you what skills to use and when. That's the very simple point you missed, it's exactly why your example of Baldur's Gate's class-based interface was so obtuse and way missing the point: Fallout should never indicate what skill is appropriate, because as far as Fallout's concerned all skills are valid and it's up to you which one you want to use. And that includes combat, which if you want to use it for the entire game, you pretty much can. That is a root concept from GURPS that you don't find in AD&D, and it's part of what makes Fallout so much better for many of us than the Infinity Engine games, mechanically. (a big problem there being that not all skills are equal, but again, the first solution there is to make more instances where skills are valid, not to cut out or hand-hold skill usage).

The problem with your solution is that it simply does not recognize what Fallout does, as in, it indicates you do not understand what the game's actually about. You want a game that tells you exactly what you can and can't do and guide you through the experience, including guiding you to its own strengths. But that is now what Fallout is. For Fallout, this discovery is part of the gameplay experience, just as it would be in a pen and paper RPG. Fallout would be a worse game if it told you from the start that speech is the best skill. Discovering the limits of the system and creatively deciding how to use skills by yourself is kind of at the core of this kind of experience. You consider it an annoyance. Now this isn't a black-and-white game, bad communication is no good game design, but what you don't seem to understand is that there are other priorities within a game mechanically than intuitiveness and user-friendliness, and you can't sacrifice core tenets to make the experience smoother.

Now, if that kind of game is not what you want, that's fine, there's plenty of games that offer what you want, no skin off my back. But claiming that your approach is inherently superior and that games should be tuned down to fit your tastes because otherwise they're bad? Well, sincerely: fuck you. Your "problem" is the game doesn't talk down to your level, and you blame the game for that. I can't imagine a more explicit example of decline.

Yeah, okay, I can see how that's kind of cool. Doesn't seem like a huge deal, though.
And there you have it. The definitive "I don't get what this game is about" quote.

*drops mike*

I'm out.
 

Infinitron

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I did mention the inventory, though perhaps not enough. I think most people agree that it sucks, so there was no need to emphasize it in my criticism.
 

Grunker

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Brother None said:
That's not a strawman, it's an insult. Perhaps I should have noted so explicitly, figures you'd require the same level of simplicity out of a conversation as you want in a video game.

Ignoring my arguments and claiming I have the opinion I have because I'm a hipster = Strawman. If you want to throw mud, learn how to do it properly.

It's fine that you need to resort to insults to get your point across if you can't manage to actually defend the point you're trying to make, but try being more inventive. Saying the resident GURPS fan enjoys simple games when he criticizes a game which is famous in P&P circles for dumbing down GURPS is pretty fucking stupid.

And another half-assed and lazy deflection. Much easier than actually talking, isn't it.

There is no proper defense when you just make shit up and claim that's what I said. I can't defend opinions I did not exrpress.

The irony of you not formulating any arguments and then saying the above to me is pretty striking, by the way.

Except I had absolutely nothing to do with that

Errrh, so?

You say Codex staff. I say GB staff.

It's evident we've hurt your pet game and that you're very upset about it, but if you have the slightest intention of making so much as a dent in my, according to you, false beliefs, then you're going to have to do more than throw around weak insults at kinder garden level. This is probably the weakest attempt at a rebuttal I've seen from you, and your defense of the 2012 article was pretty weak.

*drops mike*

:lol:

You're like a more coherent version of hiver in this thread.
 

Infinitron

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But that is unrelated to your solutions, which are to have the game shout its intents at you through context-sensitivity and relative UI sizes. But it's part of the game to refuse to tell you what skills to use and when. It doesn't *want* to tell you what skills to use and when. That's the very simple point you missed, it's exactly why your example of Baldur's Gate's class-based interface was so obtuse and way missing the point: Fallout should never indicate what skill is appropriate, because as far as Fallout's concerned all skills are valid and it's up to you which one you want to use. And that includes combat, which if you want to use it for the entire game, you pretty much can. That is a root concept from GURPS that you don't find in AD&D, and it's part of what makes Fallout so much better for many of us than the Infinity Engine games, mechanically. (a big problem there being that not all skills are equal, but again, the first solution there is to make more instances where skills are valid, not to cut out or hand-hold skill usage).

Unfortunately, Fallout DOES emphasize parts of the UI and deemphasize others, and an impression of is being made on players, even if you wish it wasn't being made.

The problem with your solution is that it simply does not recognize what Fallout does, as in, it indicates you do not understand what the game's actually about. You want a game that tells you exactly what you can and can't do and guide you through the experience, including guiding you to its own strengths. But that is now what Fallout is. For Fallout, this discovery is part of the gameplay experience, just as it would be in a pen and paper RPG. Fallout would be a worse game if it told you from the start that speech is the best skill. Discovering the limits of the system and creatively deciding how to use skills by yourself is kind of at the core of this kind of experience. You consider it an annoyance. Now this isn't a black-and-white game, bad communication is no good game design, but what you don't seem to understand is that there are other priorities within a game mechanically than intuitiveness and user-friendliness, and you can't sacrifice core tenets to make the experience smoother.

I don't think that level of discovery is key to what makes games like Fallout great. It's more about having options than discovering said options. But you're free to disagree.
 

Grunker

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Infinitron said:
It's more about having options than discovering options. But you're free to disagree.

Bingo. Everytime Fallout is discussed, its number of skills and number of solutions are highlighted. Options (choices) and outcomes (consequences) is what this game is most lauded for here. Not the fact that these options are hidden or the fact that they must be discovered (often via trial and error). That's just some bullshit defense invented for the occassion.
 

tuluse

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I don't think that level of discovery is key to what makes games like Fallout great. It's more about having options than discovering options. But you're free to disagree.
I would definitely disagree. To get the Master to kill himself you have to find the data. That is like the defining moment of Fallout and it is all discovery.
 

Infinitron

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I don't think that level of discovery is key to what makes games like Fallout great. It's more about having options than discovering options. But you're free to disagree.
I would definitely disagree. To get the Master to kill himself you have to find the data. That is like the defining moment of Fallout and it is all discovery.


Sure. But that's not the kind of discovery we're talking about here. There's a quest that you do to discover that information. It's not really "hidden".
 

EventHorizon

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Recently purchased of gog after not playin for years and seeing all the love here.

Played for 10 minutes and won't play again

Did not age very well.

Thanks dick bags.
 

Rivmusique

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Recently purchased of gog after not playin for years and seeing all the love here.

Played for 10 minutes and won't play again

Did not age very well.

Thanks dick bags.

Wait for the Grunktron mod, interface is going to be overhauled. It's a surprise anyone managed to complete the game with the old garbage they are describing.
 

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