Fallout So, Fallout 1....I'm raging so hard now.

[MasPingon]

Grunker it's vastly overrated compared to what again? How many better examples of RPG design can you mention?

 

[Kirtai]

GuI is another thing, but again, when it comes to GuI looks are more important than usability, because it's something that one uses only until one memorizes the keyboard shortcuts.

The idea of looks over usability is what produced crap like the Skyrim UI.

 

[J_C]

I'd like to give my 2 cents about the UI. Overall i didn't have big problems with it, just minor stuff. First, as Brother None said, the inventory and barter screen is hard to navigate because of the huge ass icons and slow scrolling. Also the 999 limit on money. My other gripe is with the journal, which is basicly useless. Seriously, it is useless. Only the main quests are listed most of the time. Too bad there are a shitload of secondary quests, which should be noted. Maybe I'm a bit stupid, but if I take a week off from the game, I tend to forget some sidequests if they are not written. Third: because there are a lot of dialogues in the game, it gets pretty boring to watch the animated conversation/barter screen appear, disappear. These screens should pop up immediately, like in BG, not after a 2 second animation.

 

[Infinitron]

Third: because there are a lot of dialogues in the game, it gets pretty boring to watch the animated conversation/barter screen appear, disappear. These screens should pop up immediately, like in BG, not after a 2 second animation.

Yeah, this is another thing I wanted to mention actually. It's another one of those little things that discourages you.

 

[Jaesun]

This thread.

 

[abnaxus]

If only this thread was made 10 years ago.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker it's vastly overrated compared to what again? How many better examples of RPG design can you mention?

Was I comparing it to anything? You know I don't think I was. I think I was saying it was overated. As in: it is not the best RPG ever made. You're not making me take the troll-bait of listing some games so you can discuss those instead.

Defend Fallout with the strengths you perceive it has.

Meanwhile, I'm still left with you guys claiming shit like:

GuI is another thing, but again, when it comes to GuI looks are more important than usability

and

Best selling casual/AAA games have well designed interfaces.

and

the only cRPG with better combat than Fallout is JA2.

 

[Roderick]

the bad part of fallout's UI is the Inventory and Barter,which weren't game breaking but were annoying.

 

[Infinitron]

Hashing this out in chat:

19:36 - Infinitron: for some people, the thrill of having a computer terminal you can use various skills on - is enough
19:36 - Infinitron: they don't need the extra "challenge" of opening their skilldex and finding out that they can actually use those skills
19:36 - Brother None: That's cool
19:36 - Infinitron: it's a computer terminal, and you can use skills, and that is cool
19:36 - Brother None: So all games should be adapted to the lowest common denominator, you're saying?
19:36 - Infinitron: I don't see that as a low denominator
19:37 - Brother None: Indeed, you don't
19:37 - Infinitron: it's just a different sort of experience
19:37 - Brother None: Ah cool
19:37 - Brother None: Now you gettin' it
19:37 - Infinitron: more based on skill management than discovery

Brother None thinks this low-level "discovery" aspect is key to the Fallout experience. I don't really agree, but I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The truth that Fallout has the best combat of any RPG save JA2. Oh man.

Could you finally post the list that I have requested or are you just going to continue your empty claims?

Yeah, okay, I can see how that's kind of cool. Doesn't seem like a huge deal, though.

Whatever you want to call it, those slots could be made smaller AND more easily accessible. The button that swaps between the two weapons/items is especially silly. What, they couldn't just give you two smaller slots displayed simultaneously?

Because a single slot looks better. Also, everything is integrated - swapping weapon outside inventory also plays an animation of swapping weapons.

What is the real problem here is that you can have a two handed weapon occupying only one hand slot. Two handed weapons should occupy both slots.
And that you can swap these weapons without AP cost.

Another problem is that you can use stuff from the inventory without AP cost. And you can use items which you don't have in hand without paying the cost of accessing inventory.

The idea of looks over usability is what produced crap like the Skyrim UI.

Except that Fallout UI isn't crap. Also, looks are important. A lot of charm of Fallout comes from good looks, good animations, etc.

Grunker it's vastly overrated compared to what again? How many better examples of RPG design can you mention?

Knights of the Chalice - game about wizards with fights from which you can't withdraw and which you can't bypass that doesn't even have decent critical hit tables.

Third: because there are a lot of dialogues in the game, it gets pretty boring to watch the animated conversation/barter screen appear, disappear. These screens should pop up immediately, like in BG, not after a 2 second animation.

No.

Unfortunately, Fallout DOES emphasize parts of the UI and deemphasize others, and an impression of is being made on players, even if you wish it wasn't being made.

No. It is made on Infinitron. Vast majority of players who spoke in this thread said something completely different.

 

[Grunker]

Unnecessary roadblocks in using the game as intented are now intelligent difficulty and designing a better UI is dumbing down

 

[Grunker]

Provide me a list of cRPGs with aimed attacks and critical hits depending on body part targeted and critical hit descriptions, then.

The truth that Fallout has the best combat of any RPG save JA2. Oh man.

Could you finally post the list that I have requested or are you just going to continue your empty claims?

I missed your post, but apparantly you also missed mine:

Many roguelikes, and many d20-based games are better than Fallout by far.

Which of them had aimed attacks with critical hits influenced by hit location and with nice critical hit descriptions?

That shit doesn't matter much when there's no reason to use anything but "aim for head". Even when I played this the first time and didn't get it I got by JUST fine by not aiming at all.

If your options has no meaningful place within your system, they might as well not be there at all. In Fallout, most of them was just there to have something to laugh at or use for kicks in fights that were sure wins anyway.

Firstly, your claim that Fallout's combat system is good turns to dust because of the fact that you never have to use the alternative options, in fact they're mostly strictly worse than whatever else you can do. I only used the vast bulk of them for shits and giggles - they were never better than the other options I had. Using them almost constitutes LARPing - you're shooting their leg because it makes sense to you, but the game just rewards you with a worse version of another attack.

Secondly, how the FUCK do you expect the rest of the world to instantly recognize Aimed Attacks as translatable to "best combat system ever"? You just throw some random attribute of a combat system out there without any explanation and say "hence it's the best!"

Aimed attacks are a cool idea but whether they are good or bad depend entirely on their implementation. In Fallout, everything but their kinaesthetics are awful.

Fallout's combat is a shitty attempt from a game designer to take what made GURPS combat compelling and fucking it up beyond recognition.

 

[Destroid]

Another example: If the combat in Fallout kinda sucks and is to be avoided, why do combat related things dominate such a huge portion of the interface?

For the same reason pnp rules are dominated by combat resolution. It's the section of the game that requires more rules than any other, it doesn't mean that is what the game is about. Some games (notably white wolf games) have tried to bring up the complexity of other interactions (mostly social) to the level of combat mechanics, but it's pretty unpleasant to play that way.

 

[Grunker]

Another example: If the combat in Fallout kinda sucks and is to be avoided, why do combat related things dominate such a huge portion of the interface?

For the same reason pnp rules are dominated by combat resolution.

P&P rules are only dominated by combat resolution in the games that are first and foremost about combat. Games like Vampire, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Cthulhu and all sorts of other shit have just as many non-combat rules.

The few that fit your description generally only have more because they don't resolve other interaction THAN combat through rules. This is not true of Fallout.

 

[Infinitron]

Another example: If the combat in Fallout kinda sucks and is to be avoided, why do combat related things dominate such a huge portion of the interface?

For the same reason pnp rules are dominated by combat resolution. It's the section of the game that requires more rules than any other, it doesn't mean that is what the game is about. Some games (notably white wolf games) have tried to bring up the complexity of other interactions (mostly social) to the level of combat mechanics, but it's pretty unpleasant to play that way.

Those two things don't really have anything to do with each other. Again, the IE games don't put a huge sword at the bottom of your screen and they're even more combat-centric. It's just kinda weird.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Unnecessary roadblocks in using the game as intented are now intelligent difficulty and designing a better UI is dumbing down

No. Your invented problems aren't "unnecessary roadblocks".

Also, so none of you have proposed how you'd change Fallout's GUI while preserving its aesthetic qualities.

Firstly, your claim that Fallout's combat system is good turns to dust because of the fact that you never have to use the alternative options, in fact they're mostly strictly worse than whatever else you can do. Secondly, how the FUCK do you expect the rest of the world to instantly recognized Aimed Attacks as translatable to "best combat system ever"?

Aimed attacks are a cool idea but whether they are good or bad depend entirely on their implementation. In Fallout, everything but their kinaesthetics are awful.

Your claims about just standing there and winning were debunked long time ago.
Aimed attacks/hit locations and their influence on damage are such a basic feature that their lack is utterly pathetic.

Those two things don't really have anything to do with each other. Again, the IE games don't put a huge sword at the bottom of your screen and they're even more combat-centric. It's just kinda weird.

BECAUSE SWORDS IN IE GAMES DON'T HAVE THE AESTHETIC QUALITIES OF FALLOUTS WEAPONS YOU SUBHUMAN CRETIN. FUCK YOU, I'M ADDING YOU ALL TO MY IGNORE LIST.

 

[Broseph]

This thread.

 

[Gozma]

You actually can be the best RPG ever made with mediocre combat. This is deductively true regardless of which RPG you think is the best.

Because all RPGs have topped off at mediocre combat. "RPGs with good combat" is an empty set

 

[Grunker]

BECAUSE SWORDS IN IE GAMES DON'T HAVE THE AESTHETIC QUALITIES OF FALLOUTS WEAPONS YOU SUBHUMAN CRETIN

You called me extremist for making a jest about you and sex, and then you call Infinitron a 'subhuman cretin' because he disgrees with you about a video game? Take a deep breath Awor.

 

[Mangoose]

You actually can be the best RPG ever made with mediocre combat. This is deductively true regardless of which RPG you think is the best.

Because all RPGs have topped off at mediocre combat. "RPGs with good combat" is an empty set

:Opens mouth and raises finger:

...

:Closes mouth and puts finger down:

D-divinity Original Sin?

 

[SCO]

Because clicking "6" on the keyboard and then clicking at the computer or clicking directly at the computer to see what happens surely is a huge time waster.

Fallout needed some retard handholding for first impressions on that. A 'science' or 'repair' line on the log messagebox when you click on one of the skills shortcuts would have been enough. It would still not be visible before selecting the skill (discoverability), but at least it would be feedback.
Still, two clicks to select from popup is not bad.

 

[marooned]

This thread.

 

[Blaine]

:Opens mouth and raises finger:

...

:Closes mouth and puts finger down:

D-divinity Original Sin?

The previous Divinity game had some of the most atrociously bland, boring, and insultingly straightforward combat I've ever seen. No matter how nice their projected feature set may appear currently, and regardless of the dramatic change in format, I wouldn't bet good money on that just yet.

 

[undecaf]

This thread.

 

[Jestai]

But, I disagree with your "frobbing" complaint. The animations in Fallout serve as a disincentive from endlessly click-spamming repeatable actions, i.e. trying to pick the lock in a door 5000 times just so your 0.05% chance will succeed. Arguably stuff like critical failures are enough but I really think those interaction animations are meant to be a deterrent against abuse more than anything else. You also drastically overstate the length of those animations. They are literally 1 second long, and if you're going to waste 2 minutes doing something over and over and over and over and over and over... you're probably trying to cheese the game, and deserve to wait those 2 minutes.

Picking a lock, yes. Opening or closing an unlocked door, no.

Actually though, now that I think about it, the really annoying bit about those animations was that your character put away his weapon every time he did them and pulled it back out after he was done. That was what made them really long.

This was indeed painful. In my last playthrough, my second weapon was most of the time nothing because of that. I no longer can be arsed to see the CO putting away his sledgehammer every fucking time he does something. STILL A MINOR ANNOYANCE AND STILL A GREAT GAME.