Blaine
Cis-Het Oppressor
But okay, if you admit the UI isn't very good, then what is your solution?
In all seriousness though, it's not that hard to get used to. Then again, using it will be second-nature to me for the rest of my life, so....
But okay, if you admit the UI isn't very good, then what is your solution?
Sure, no problem. But I fear it will be a while. First I want to replay some goldies.BTW, J_C, I'm interested in hearing your opinion of FO2 after you're through with that.
Fallout doesn't have weapon slots, it has item slots. You can put any item in those slots and use it. This is because Fallout is great.On the left, you can select one of two weapons. Baldur's Gate is a much more combat-focused game than Fallout, yet the weapon selection UI is much smaller.
Brother None said:This is a half-assed and lazy deflection
Brother None said:I'm just going to assume you guys are being hipsters and trying too hard
Brother None said:beliefs such as "combat should be faster!" or "if I can't figure out this UI it must suck, let's give it bigger buttons and context-sensitivity!".
Brother None said:It's fairly typical that the loudest voices of the decline here are Codex staff, though.
"Decline" is fast becoming a stamp you put on someone that disagrees with you, no matter what other old classics they like and regard as they should. Next someone is going to say that game classic connousiers like Sceptic or Crooked Bee are decliners because they dislike ToEE or some bullshit.
Fallout doesn't make a distinction between weapons/consumables/other items. Everything is a tool to interact with the world.Uh, okay? IE games have a separate set of quickslots for usable items.
Fallout doesn't make a distinction between weapons/consumables/other items. Everything is a tool to interact with the world.Uh, okay? IE games have a separate set of quickslots for usable items.
Who here are agents of the decline - those who criticize a quote-unquote "holy" game, or those that outright claim a game is immune to any scrutiny?
Note that neither me or Infinitron are calling Fallout a bad RPG. We're saying it's vastly overrated with its position as the Codex' favourite. That this causes mass butthurt shows how much of a holy cow this game is. If this place is serious about the angle of critical thinking gamers, holy cows shouldn't exist.
That's not a strawman, it's an insult. Perhaps I should have noted so explicitly, figures you'd require the same level of simplicity out of a conversation as you want in a video game.Brother None said:This is a half-assed and lazy deflectionBrother None said:I'm just going to assume you guys are being hipsters and trying too hard
Calls strawman - pulls one out of ass. Brilliantly played, sir!
And another half-assed and lazy deflection. Much easier than actually talking, isn't it.Yeah man, that's exactly what we've been saying! Your reading comprehension is off the charts.
Oh, wait, no, that's not what I've been saying at all. Shit. Two for two on bullshit strawmen.
Except I had absolutely nothing to do with that, and that has already been pointed out several times. You're a fucking idiot.http://www.gamebanshee.com/editorials/110615-game-of-the-year-2012.html
In short: Stones, glass houses, etc etc
Depends on what part of the UI you're talking about. Oddly enough the worst one isn't mentioned here, which is inventory, which lulz a scrolling list of huge icons what is this Windows 8.But okay, if you admit the UI isn't very good, then what is your solution?
And there you have it. The definitive "I don't get what this game is about" quote.Yeah, okay, I can see how that's kind of cool. Doesn't seem like a huge deal, though.
Brother None said:That's not a strawman, it's an insult. Perhaps I should have noted so explicitly, figures you'd require the same level of simplicity out of a conversation as you want in a video game.
And another half-assed and lazy deflection. Much easier than actually talking, isn't it.
Except I had absolutely nothing to do with that
*drops mike*
But that is unrelated to your solutions, which are to have the game shout its intents at you through context-sensitivity and relative UI sizes. But it's part of the game to refuse to tell you what skills to use and when. It doesn't *want* to tell you what skills to use and when. That's the very simple point you missed, it's exactly why your example of Baldur's Gate's class-based interface was so obtuse and way missing the point: Fallout should never indicate what skill is appropriate, because as far as Fallout's concerned all skills are valid and it's up to you which one you want to use. And that includes combat, which if you want to use it for the entire game, you pretty much can. That is a root concept from GURPS that you don't find in AD&D, and it's part of what makes Fallout so much better for many of us than the Infinity Engine games, mechanically. (a big problem there being that not all skills are equal, but again, the first solution there is to make more instances where skills are valid, not to cut out or hand-hold skill usage).
The problem with your solution is that it simply does not recognize what Fallout does, as in, it indicates you do not understand what the game's actually about. You want a game that tells you exactly what you can and can't do and guide you through the experience, including guiding you to its own strengths. But that is now what Fallout is. For Fallout, this discovery is part of the gameplay experience, just as it would be in a pen and paper RPG. Fallout would be a worse game if it told you from the start that speech is the best skill. Discovering the limits of the system and creatively deciding how to use skills by yourself is kind of at the core of this kind of experience. You consider it an annoyance. Now this isn't a black-and-white game, bad communication is no good game design, but what you don't seem to understand is that there are other priorities within a game mechanically than intuitiveness and user-friendliness, and you can't sacrifice core tenets to make the experience smoother.
*drops mike*
Infinitron said:It's more about having options than discovering options. But you're free to disagree.
I would definitely disagree. To get the Master to kill himself you have to find the data. That is like the defining moment of Fallout and it is all discovery.I don't think that level of discovery is key to what makes games like Fallout great. It's more about having options than discovering options. But you're free to disagree.
I would definitely disagree. To get the Master to kill himself you have to find the data. That is like the defining moment of Fallout and it is all discovery.I don't think that level of discovery is key to what makes games like Fallout great. It's more about having options than discovering options. But you're free to disagree.
Recently purchased of gog after not playin for years and seeing all the love here.
Played for 10 minutes and won't play again
Did not age very well.
Thanks dick bags.
Davaris said:Best selling casual/AAA games have well designed interfaces.
WAT
Which ones? Modern interfaces are mostly floaty, scrolly pieces of shit that look like it's made by web-site designers, and they're mostly made directly for the controller. Others have minimalist or non-existing UI that require all sorts of weird input to work and give you almost no information about what you are doing.
Modern interface design is rivaled only by a select few arcane interface designs of old.
Infinitron said:The first game to really successfully combine elements of dialogue-heavy reactivity, C&C and adventure gaming in the framework of a traditional RPG, something that a few CRPGs had begun to progress towards in the early 90s, but never quite managed to do before the genre's semi-collapse in the mid-90s. Combined with its simplistic but enjoyably violent combat (a quality which is somehow enhanced by its incongruent turn-based nature) and quirky setting, Fallout is understandably extremely popular on the Codex. However, as an RPG proper, it's not nearly as hardcore as some of its fans think it is.
Grunker said:Like JarlFrank, I tried this game many years after its release. As a true P&P-fag, I recall first being quite disappointed in the character system and the wasted opportunity that it could have been the first game made with the near-perfect GURPS character system. However, my disappointment soon vanished. While Fallout isn't one of my favourite games due to my personal tastes, I have a great deal of admiration for the game in the way it meshes almost complete non-linearity with a compelling narrative, and how it manages to make its combat and character system fun despite their simplicity.