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So is Street Fighter 5 a good game or not?!

Mustawd

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aweigh , what's ur opinion on Street Fighter 5? I somehow spent almost all of Saturday morning watching esport vids of the game. And I found it fascinating. But regardless of the fun of watching it, I've heard it's casualized. Is this true in your own opinion?
 
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aweigh

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mustawd.

its a very limited game compared to 3 and 4. the lack of options make it repetitious and eventually boring to watch and to play.

if it was the first game in the series it would be fine but too much was lost. if you check out the SF5 thread in Genera Gaming I talk at length about this there.
 
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aweigh

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mustawd.

i agree whole-heartedly. SF 4's "latency" (not exactly the correct terminology; we're talking about a buffer which holds back a certain amount of frames, and it is not the same buffer as the one which holds special move inputs... lotsa buffers, heh)--

--SF 4 actually had 3.4 frames of buffered input delay on PC and XBOX 360, and 4.1 on PS3.

if you play a few hours of SF 5 then switch without taking a break to SF 4 it will literally feel like you just started living in fast-foward movement.

Right now I gotta go do laundry but later I'll post about why SF V's fundamental game play is so different from SF 4's and I want to do it because it actually has extremely little to do with SF 5's 6.4 frames of buffered input delay (although that is definitely one of the reasons why).

for now, a TL;DR:

...essentially SF 5 has twice the delay on buffered input in the game engine which means that although the frame data for the characters is the same, i.e. a 3-frame jab is a 3-frame jab in both SF4 and in SF5, the actual mechanical movement and responsiveness between what is happening on-screen and what was inputted by the players is, in SF 5, literally "twice as slow" as it was in SF4, indeed also as in any other 2D fighters.

Ryu's jump has the same amount of total frames in sf4 and in sf5, but in sf5 it is twice as hard to effectively Anti-Air Ryu's jump than it used to be SF 4 (or any other current 2D fighter).

You're seeing ryu jumping and you input your anti-air move/etc, and it gets stuffed or something else happens because you didn't do it early enough to compensate for the doubled amount of buffered input delay.

Additionally, since in SF 5 they removed invincibility frames from back-dashes in order to make the game more "aggressive" (SF: Third Strike was like this as well) and, furthermore because you cannot "back out" of a special move by spending EX-meter and FADC'ing out of it like in SF 4: the result is that in SF 5 your defensive options are reduced to:

- Blocking
- Anti-Airing perfectly, but if you fuck it up the jump-in combo will do 40% DMG
- Some other misc. action that falls into either of the two camps above

The idealistic hope was that SF 5 would promote "a man's game" where if you do a Shoryuken you better be sure it's good, because you won't be able to spend meter to FADC out of it if opponent blocks it, and the same reasoning applies to returning backdashes to how they were in SF: 3rd Strike (no invincibility frames).

Lastly, for now, for honestly reasons I can't even coherently put into sentences (even playing devil's advocate here for CAPCOM), they designed all of SF 5's normals and special moves (most of them, large majority) to leave the attacker in "plus frames", which means that for example:

Ryu can dash up to your face, in SF 5, and do two consecutive standing MP's, you block them, and guess what? you cannot punish him; if attack or something after the 2nd st. MP, ryu is plus and he can block, counter-attack, etc.

Throw him., you say? No my friend, they also made a radically different from SF 4 approach to "push-back", i.e. in SF 5 when characters attack and opponent blocks BOTH characters will be pushed away although obviously the attacker is the one who is pushed back the most.

So that is why, in a nutshell, any SF 5 you will see:

- A LOT OF JUMPING (the reward outweighs the risk disproportionately)
- Characters who are "on their turn", i.e. Bison, for example, doing like 4 block-strings in a row and the other player blocking and waiting to tech the inevitable throw... he cannot backdash out of Bison's pressure (using Bison as an example, applies universally), and he cannoy mash SRK during Bison's strings because...

They removed invincibility frames from "reversal attacks", i.e. "Shoryuken"-type special moves, except when they are "EX", so you have to spend meter.

This is a first for Street Fighter, no other street fighter has featured so little ways to defend or to manipulate the flow of the attacking player and/or adjust your own; there are simply too few options.

Reading this you may think, on the surface, that it does indeed sound like they were "right" decisions, i.e. no backdashing on wake-up every time (although obviously in SF 4 you could anticipate that and punish them for doing it), and you can't just "mash reversal" because a simple JAB will stuff it.

it's a c ompletely different game... and I didn't even touch on the changes done to the throw systems and the new "Priority System" for normals in SF5, which is in my hubmle opinion the single biggest mistake.

(Priority System is complicated but basically = SF 5 crush-counters)

Crush-counters are absolute cancer because they have irrevocably warped traditional neutral play and "footsies" and whiff-punishment.

All that said it's still fun... but it's also the first SF i've ever stopped playing for months and months at a time without missing it.
 
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aweigh

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from veealune

I read that they basically purposefully increased latency to make the game more about aggression rather than defense, and that also ties into how they really want to make Street Fighter into an intense EE SPURT since aggression is more captivating to watch than defense.

from great deceiver
Bullshit, latency has been introduced solely because online play is now the norm. Fighting games are being played online a majority of the time (including in arcades - yes, most Tekken 7 arcade matches are also online), and even though tournaments are still in-person, both Capcom and Namco want to normalize the experience as much as possible. Since online latency cannot be physically avoided at this point in time, their solution was to approximate the offline and online gameplay by artificially introducing delay in the game engine itself. No amount of rationalizing can get around this fact - there's no sensible gameplay reason for latency to be introduced, it's simply a stopgap measure to approximate two modes of play by leveling according to the lowest denominator (i.e. online).

This is a big part of the reason why fighting games have completely lost their appeal to me after I spent over a decade playing them competitively at the arcades. Playing offline now feels like wading through 85ms of delay - which it effectively is. No thanks
 

Mustawd

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ahh gotcha. I guess I dont know any better since I've only been watching SF5.
 
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aweigh

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i was rooting around my GDrive and found a video i recorded of the most perfect Ryu player I ever saw (in SF4):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxPgAqwbIfAVTE9oNmdZc0xuSUM4cTlHbVJxenh0aFhFR2NJ



...brings a tear to my eye to see such impeccable play, such masterful spacing and such easy knowledge of how to control the opponent.

unfortunately playing like this with Ryu is impossible in SF V, as we all know... the only character who can even approach this kind of perfect zoning and control is obviously SF V's guile, and even there... there are simply too many characters/options in SF V who can bypass "the neutral" altogether:

- characters like Rashid could simply eagle spike through any attempt at zoning or control of space.
- characters like Menat... well, you know what Menat can do.
- characters like Abigail or Urien who can simply utilize very fast horizontal-moving special moves with multiple hits of "armor".

etc.

Zoning as seen in the above video, i.e. "traditional street fighter shoto-play", is simply not possible in SF V, not truly.
 
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aweigh

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from great deceiver
SFV has no fireball game - as you said, pretty much every character can bypass it using a braindead move. That's one of the reasons why Ryu is so shit. The other one is that he needs meter to do comparable damage to other characters' no-meter combos. Parry V trigger is a joke and the new mule kick is pretty bad, it's only good for V-cancel combo setups and even then it's unreliable in the corner.

I actually don't know how to close distance with Ryu in this game, anything outside MK range and he's fucked. That's the most un-Ryu shit ever.

mustawd.

TLDR: after you play SF5 enough you realize that every character ((feels the same)) whereas in 3 and 4 the underlying universa mechanics allowed a payer to play each character so differenty you could aways immediatey know what top payer was playing from watching footage

you could go oh that is definitely Infiltrations Hakan! I know how he plays!

in sf5 that is extremely rare because there are limited ways to approach a situation.
 

Mustawd

Guest
yah aweigh , but I constantly get steam notifications of you paying SF5. I mean , wtf? If you dislike it so much why keep playing it?
 

Mustawd

Guest
Honestly, if anything the only reason I thought about playing it is cuz you're constantly plying it. And I know how much you enjoy fighting games.
 
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aweigh

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i havent played it in almost 3 months... though i will eventually return. i sometimes play 4 instead.

gotta play 5 because it is the tournament standard and the flagship title right now and it is where all the community is: TLDR it is what my steam friends play.

its harder to get a good lobby going in a non-current title.

plus i enjoy watching pro players compete in tournament and to fully understand whats happening i need to keep up with the game myself. its an enjoyable enough FG (sf5) just less than 4.

this 3 month break however is the longest ive ever gone without playing. i do need to get back to playing though cos i can feel mysef getting out of practice.
 
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aweigh

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theres also a burn out factor for me i been playing for too long and needed a break. i know i will come back to sf5 soon though i can fee the itch.

and youre getting the impression i dont think sf5 is fun or that it isnt fun to watch: it is. i never said it wasnt. i watch sf5 footage every single day.
 
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aweigh

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i have tons of shit ive recorded (matches and practising setups and shit) on my YT channel. my YT channel has SF videos (that ive recorded) and dungeon crawler videos only lol

i have a ton of videos.

mustawd.

you should check out the premier fighting game website www.eventhubs.com

www.shoryuken.com is good for guides and its forums (i post there sometimes)
 

Mustawd

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Fair enuf. I've only been watching n SFV for like threw days. Can't imagine playing and watching it for months.
 
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aweigh

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try years? the burn out set in thats all. the need to practice every day began to take a toll and ive been playing more RPGs recently.
 

Mustawd

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How so? Im not big into esports or fighting games. I just found it entertaining.
 
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aweigh

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capcom is far from dead. the fact is that SF is still far and away the leading fighting game in all categories. (which is why its the most played).

btw capcom announced new balance dropping soon which is the perfect excuse for me to hop back into the grind when it drops
 

HeatEXTEND

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capcom is far from dead.
I'll meet you in the middle with "shambling husk". Which is probably why it's attracting those millions of flies eating shit :smug:.
To be honest I still fire up ST/SF4 every now and then but sfV has turned them into a joke as far as I'm concerned. If you want a good example of how ASW actually tries, look at M.O.M. mode in recent Xrd games. There is more work put into that single mode than SFV through it's entire lifespan. It let's you:

-level your char (STR, MAG, CON, AGI).
-change pretty much every movement parameter (speed, jumps, dashes, teleports etc.).
-customize chars moveset with every single move in the game plus a shit-ton more (placing turrets, traps, potions, bombs, summoning giant mecha strikes etcetc.)
-equiping items for all kinds of effects, the items equiped level-up along with certain stat thresholds.

Shit is absolutely crazy, the amount of effort put into something some players don't even know exists. :incline:
 

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