So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[Jaesun]

Roguey, if RPG suck and you can barely tolerate them, I'd be curious to hear what game you think is a game that doesn't suck. A game you find genuinely appealing. No matter which genre. Just say it. Shower us with that mythical unicorn of game design.

He has NEVER stated any list of cRPG's (and specifically avoids any topic asking for them). If that isn't a clue already. you should probably be using this

 

[Nikaido]

 

[uaciaut]

lmao i pressed the show ignored content button and saw the light of truth: donkey kong is the game that all other games must aspire to. i am literally in tears.

no seriously how do not more people find this absolutely hilarious

 

[DalekFlay]

Gameboy Donkey Kong, World of Goo, Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros 3, Yoshi's Island, Flashback, Hitman: Blood Money, Devil May Cry 3.

Lot of puzzles and platforms and puzzle-platformers. DMC3 is the odd one out, but it's a very well-done melee-combat game. Also Josh-approved, so is Blood Money.

Pretty lacking in PC games but that's because most of that stuff is janky with needless/bullshit complexity and/or blind guessing. Elegance is more likely to be found in simplicity.

I've never been the type to ask this question before but why the fuck are you heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere?

 

[Akasen]

I feel like Roguey's brain is progressively being eaten away. What if it's a parasite made to go after Codexers? What if this is Bethesda's last attempt to rid us all? What if I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION
I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION I LOVE OBLIVION

 

[karfhud]

People who think that New Vegas, Diablo 3, Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are the greatest RPGs of all time value different kind of game design than RPGcodex members.

Wait, what?



How excatly did New Vegas end up in that group? How did a game focusing on the narrative end up in the same group as a hack-and-slash? I get it that you're doing everything you can to keep firing shots, but come on. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Akasen]

At this point, TheGreatOne has a consistent stance while Rougey is slowly being driven into insanity.

 

[Roguey]

Why gameboy Donkey Kong and not SNES or NES DK?

There was no NES DK, and as for DKC, I agree with Miyamoto's assessment ("Donkey Kong Country proves that players will put up with mediocre gameplay as long as the art is good.")

The GB DK is full of brilliant puzzle platforming.

Why Super Metriod and Not one of the Metriodvanias?

Not as elegant.

But that reminds me, I forgot about Iji. Its creator describes it as a 2D System Shock 2; however, it's actually balanced and fun to play. It also has narrative- and minor gameplay reactivity to a pacifist run, so Chris Avellone would approve.

Why DMC3 and not the original?

Hated the underwater levels and the plane thing at the end.

Even by codex standards you really seem to be trying hard to hate gaming as a whole if these are the only example of solid game design in your book.

It's not comprehensive.

What do you think about Quake 3, for example?

Never played it because its single player was a series of botmatches. I'm not interested in playing multiplayer games.

I've never been the type to ask this question before but why the fuck are you heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere?

She's here spreading the gospel of St. Joshua Sawyer to save us from degeneracy

RPGs are all severely flawed, but show promise. Pillars of Eternity may be the first elegant RPG. I can only hope.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Roguey, if RPG suck and you can barely tolerate them, I'd be curious to hear what game you think is a game that doesn't suck. A game you find genuinely appealing. No matter which genre. Just say it. Shower us with that mythical unicorn of game design.

Gameboy Donkey Kong, World of Goo, Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros 3, Yoshi's Island, Flashback, Hitman: Blood Money, Devil May Cry 3.

Lot of puzzles and platforms and puzzle-platformers. DMC3 is the odd one out, but it's a very well-done melee-combat game. Also Josh-approved, so is Blood Money.

Pretty lacking in PC games but that's because most of that stuff is janky with needless/bullshit complexity and/or blind guessing. Elegance is more likely to be found in simplicity.

this is actually a really good list and I thought I was the only one who remembered/really loved Gameboy Donkey Kong

apart from world of goo, what is that doing there

 

[Roguey]

apart from world of goo, what is that doing there

And one of the great things about World of Goo is that, while its puzzles have an optimum solution, the mechanics are flexible enough to allow multiple ways to reach your goal. Not unlike Hitman: Blood Money, another fucking classic.

I like flexible puzzles.

I also like its art style, soundtrack, and narrative.

 

[CyberP]

RPGs are all severely flawed, but show promise. Pillars of Eternity may be the first elegant RPG. I can only hope.

So, Halo or Gears of War must be some of your favourite games of all time? They are extremely simple yet everything they try to do (which isn't much at all) they do arguably without flaw.
Simplicity was perfected years ago, I prefer innovative complex games that feature a few flaws (or sometimes many) to a simple game featuring little to no gameplay complexity. Simple elegance can indeed be fun, and complex elegance (Dark Souls?) even more so. Just because System Shock 2 has some unbalanced systems, or Fallout allows for "degenerate gameplay", writing all PC titles off as poorly-designed games with needless complexity just makes you look like an idiot.
Simple elegance should not be a designer's goal, rather uncompromising complex elegance. Playing games is not complex, you learn how the most-in-depth games work to an intermediate level of knowledge in a matter of hours, days at most.

 

[CyberP]

Gameplay complexity simply equates to more gameplay content, and if you can get that complexity to be intuitive and balanced without having to simplify, then you should.

Shouldn't you be labelling half of FO:NV's rpg systems as needless complexity anyhow? The systems are not balanced and I can think of a few ways to improve them.

What do you think of Alpha Protocol, Roguey?

 

[Athelas]

CyberP, you do know you can edit your posts, right?

 

[CyberP]

Athelas: You do know I cannot, right?

 

[CyberP]

And apparently Evil

People who think that New Vegas, Diablo 3, Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are the greatest RPGs of all time value different kind of game design than RPGcodex members.

Wait, what?



How excatly did New Vegas end up in that group? How did a game focusing on the narrative end up in the same group as a hack-and-slash? I get it that you're doing everything you can to keep firing shots, but come on. That's just ridiculous.

I agree. New Vegas is a very good game. Mass Effect 3, Diablo 3 & DA 2 are not in the Codex's list (for good reasons), New Vegas is.

 

[Irenaeus]

Here is a flexible puzzle: Immerse yourself in lava

 

[TheGreatOne]

How excatly did New Vegas end up in that group? How did a game focusing on the narrative end up in the same group as a hack-and-slash? I get it that you're doing everything you can to keep firing shots, but come on. That's just ridiculous.

Heavy rain and To the moon focus on narrative. The fact that it focuses on narrative itself does not say shit about the game.
I was under the impression that Fallout 3 and New Vegas appeal to different kind of gamers, but then Roguey corrected me that Fallout 3 fans in fact do like New Vegas. It's a commercial success, a big mainstream AAA game, so I guess it makes sense. Quite a different following than something like Darklands, Darkside of Xeen, Realms of Arkania, Wasteland, Bane of the Cosmic Forge, or Dark Queen of Krynn, I'd say. Or The Dark Spire, SMT: Devil Survivor/Strange Journey and KOTC, if you want a more modern comparison.

Most people who play PC games have heard of Planescape Torment. Hell, it's GOG's #1 selling title of all time.

Most modern PC gamers play DayZ, Papers Please&MOBA games and find original Fallout confusing and boring and call themselves the master race because Crysis has better graphics than Halo

SS2 isn't a particularly-demanding game (unless you spend points where you shouldn't).

I agree, but casuals don't. This is what Yahtzee (god I hate that cunt) had to say about it

The thing about System Shock 2 I found is I know a lot of people who've played it and have fond memories of it but virtually none of them could claim to have actually finished it.

System Shock 2 is a lot harder and more complex than Bioshock.

It bombed because it sucks.

No it doesn't. Mods should step in at this point, your bullshit has gone far enough. Let's have a vote. How many people think that SS2 sold a lot more poorly than games like Unreal, Turok, Goldeneye, Quake 2 (and 3 if you hate multiplayer), Half Life, Halo, Timesplitters and Max Payne because it's so horrible and lacking in positive aspects compared to those games. You are scum.

Auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WncZmh7oob8

Things more refined in SS2: Controls, UI, graphics. Both receive failing grades-systems wise.

If you think that having to track down people to teach you skills when you level up in a game about exploring a deep dungeon is systematically as bad as System Shock 2, you're delirious.

No. None of them sound appealing.

Then stop stating otherwise you insipid cunt. Either you'll take our word for it or play them for yourself. Your behavior is equivalent to some one who claims that there isn't a single bad CRPG made in the history of the genre, they're all great. Except that person has never actually played a single CRPG in his life and refuses to try one.

People who think Fallout, Torment, and Arcanum are the greatest RPGs of all time certainly don't value gameplay.

People who think that New Vegas is a great RPG who simultaneously diss Wizardry, gold box games, SMT: Nocturne and Dark Souls (and most likely T/SRPGs aswell) certainly don't value good gameplay in RPGs either.
You ignore the fact there there is a small subset of RPGcodex members who in fact prefer golden age CRPGs. Fallout and Arcanum have great character creation but bad gameplay. Torment has a great morality system but bad gameplay. If you could combine the character creation and C&C of those games with combat mechanics of RPGs with good gameplay, you would get one hell of a game.

I think all RPGs are bad.

I think you should stop spending time at a forum called "RPG codex"

New Vegas is only a slight cut above the rest.

Better than Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Twitcher and Alpha Brotocol? Sure. On par with Human Revolution? Maybe. An all time great? No.

Some of the RPGs I've tolerated the most include Deus Ex, Knights of the Chalice, Icewind Dale 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Fallout 1 and 2, and Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, and I've completed all of them, some more than once, so the idea that I'm someone who only likes modern multiplatform stuff is puzzling.

Why do you tolerate Deus Ex, Arcanum and Fallout if you're so above junk systems with bad gameplay?

Different audiences.

No, you're wrong. It's not like people who play RPGs are incapable of liking FPS games and vice versa. Half life 2 is likely the biggest PC game of all time and most PC gamers were anticipating it, not just people who liked the first game.

Gameboy Donkey Kong

Wii Donkey Kong is just as good if not better for level design, as it has probably had the best level design out of all the games released during that time period (2007-2013), Rayman Origins and Sonic Generations (2D stages), Human Revolution and maybe Dishonored (though I can't recall much from it so disregard that if I'm wrong) being the most prominent contenders. Unless exploiting after hit damage immunity is "unelegant" and "degenerate" design. I have a hard time taking it seriously when a cross dressing CRPG hater with a hardon for some hipster calls something "degenerate".

World of Goo

If you're going to list indy shit, atleast you should have the common decency to mention Super Meat Boy (and maybe VVVVVV) FFS

Flashback

Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus is the king of cinematic puzzle platformers and Another World is much more important and influental than Flashback. How typical of you, you pick the game that's neither Wizardry nor Torment, just in-between mediocrity.

Hitman: Blood Money

Thief II

The GB DK is full of brilliant puzzle platforming.

Klonoa is the king of puzzle platfomers (yes, the puzzles are harder in some pretentious indy games, but Klonoa wins in actual platforming)

Why Super Metriod and Not one of the Metriodvanias?

Not as elegant.

Something we can both agree on, mostly because it was already brought up by Sequelitis 3 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM&t=13m17s
Riddle me this:
Rondo of Blood vs Super Metroid
Super Metroid vs Symphony of the Night vs Metroid Prime

Pillars of Eternity may be the first elegant RPG. I can only hope.

Yes, hoping is the only thing you can do. It's RTwP so by default it can't be elegant.

Playing games is not complex, you learn how the most-in-depth games work to an intermediate level of knowledge in a matter of hours, days at most.

Dwarf fortress. Even something like World of Warcraft takes a lot of time to get competent at if you're not using any guides (thought granted in World of Warcraft there's a shit ton of general information that you learn over time so it's not all related to gameplay). It took years before the use of keybinds became more widespread. Even with guides it's a lot to take in.

 

[DalekFlay]

Heavy rain and To the moon focus on narrative. The fact that it focuses on narrative itself does not say shit about the game.

It's not just narrative, it's faction play, world design, setting design, quest writing and quest design, choice and consequence, etc. For many people here these things are a big part of what's good in RPGs. New Vegas did all of them exceptionally well.

I was under the impression that Fallout 3 and New Vegas appeal to different kind of gamers, but then Roguey corrected me that Fallout 3 fans in fact do like New Vegas. It's a commercial success, a big mainstream AAA game, so I guess it makes sense. Quite a different following than something like Darklands, Darkside of Xeen, Realms of Arkania, Wasteland, Bane of the Cosmic Forge, or Dark Queen of Krynn, I'd say. Or The Dark Spire, SMT: Devil Survivor/Strange Journey and KOTC, if you want a more modern comparison.

This reeks of "it's highbrow if less people like it" faggotry. A ton of mainstream people liking New Vegas would be a good thing, not a bad thing, because it's such incline from Fallout 3. Your little "cool list of RPGs I love" doesn't give you some amazing amount of street-cred that means jack shit as far as how well made New Vegas was. Comparing a game like New Vegas to fucking Darklands is ridiculous. You can realize they are entirely different games and yet both be good. It's fucking possible, I swear.

 

[Irenaeus]

This guy is my new hero.

 

[Irenaeus]

TheGreatOne is what I want to be when I grow up.

 

[tuluse]

Super Metroid is one of the best games I've ever played. Everything about it is just great. Would definitely put in a list of my top games.

 

[Irenaeus]

Bloodlines is better than Super Metroid.

 

[DalekFlay]

Apples are better than oranges.

 

[Irenaeus]

Let's talk about Bloodlines. Create a thread for your Super Metroid in General Gaming.

 

[Lhynn]

Bloodlines was so much fun, sometimes i find myself playing some other game wishing i was playing bloodlines.