So, you're to cool for Oblivion? Why?

[Chefe]

By what fucked up alchemical process did the soul-erosion algortihms and forests become a bad thing?

Did anyone ever say that? My quote above implies that the only in-depth features, that also happen to be nearly worthless in an RPG, are soil erosion and the forests. The rest appears to be mediocre at best.

Forests worthless in an RPG???!!!!

BLASPHEMY!

 

[RGE]

... a game that genuinely looks visually astounding ...

Apart from the forests, the only thing astounding about Oblivions visuals is how they could use all those resources and still make it look more boring than my backyard. I just think that the art direction is horrible. And that's why Oblivion is not cool enough for me. Because I can deal with dumbed down stuff. I quite like it when designers know their limits as opposed to filling the game with tons of unbalanced crap that might never actually be used.

 

[OverrideB1]

Failry in-depth what? What Oblivion features deserve such a title? Graphics? Soil erosion? Virtual forests?

Okay, I'm going to ask this once and once only. Not seeking to perpetuate any flame wars, I'm genuinely curious. By what fucked up alchemical process did the soul-erosion algortihms and forests become a bad thing? Last time I checked the process had basically automated the production of the entire damn landscape saving them hundreds if not thousands of hours over the way they did it in Morrowind. Time that they can spend on other, more useful things. Could you imagine doing daggerfall by hand? No fucking way. Oblivion may be no where near daggerfall, but it's a step in the right direction.

The answer to that should be blindingly obvious. Neither forests nor soil erosion are, in and of themselves, bad things to include - although I'd question the validity of realisitc soil-erosion in a game.

The problem lies in your comment "Time that they can spend on other, more useful things"

It is becoming increasingly obvious that they haven't spent all this time they've "acquired" by pre-generating the landscape on anything meaningful in RPG terms. We are promised more involved quests (despite the two prosaic examples we've been given) yet - at the same time - we are told that the game is being made "more accessible" for a "broader audience".

Basically, what this means is that the crowd who couldn't find Caius Cosades in Morrowind are now going to have their hands heald by Bethesda. So, we get more "involved" quests yet, at the same time, a compass that points out quest-resolutions. Ignore the fact that it might be halfway across the map; ignore the fact that you've got to get there yourself; the resolution to the quest is right there - all it lacks is a fucking neon arrow pointed at the NPC. Yet, instead of spending some of this amazing amount of extra time they've got providing an option to turn it off, they instead spend it on hacking away vast chunks of the very game-elements that form the core of the TES series.

As for the cash they've saved proceedurally generating the game-world - that got blown on the budget for Sean Bean, Linda Carter, and Patrick (OMFG) Stewart.

This is where I have a problem with the soil-erosion and pre-generated landscape. Yes, I understand perfectly well why it has been done. But the savings they've made in time and money have been wasted on unimportant elements instead of concentrating on the very things that made Daggerfall a great game and adding to that

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Last time I checked the process had basically automated the production of the entire damn landscape saving them hundreds if not thousands of hours over the way they did it in Morrowind.

Last time I checked, technological aspects remain largerly irrelevant to gamers or appreciation of a game unless it has a considerable impact on gameplay. Automated generation of landscape is only really worth it from a developer point of view. To the average gamer, wheter a landscape took one month or one week to be done doesn't matter. They tend to find the content more important than how the content is developed.

They've found a way to shorten development time on a particular feature? That's great. I sincerely believe that such optimization of feature development is a step in the right direction when it comes to game development, especially if the time gained is invested in improving other parts of the game. But as a gamer, that doesn't move me anywhere. As a potential Oblivion buyer, that feature will not alter my gameplay experience or any appreciation I might have of the game.

Time that they can spend on other, more useful things.

Like feature erosion.

 

[Sabregirl]

I don't expect to see a modding community littered with people who want stupid shit like Masterchief armor made for Morrowind. Or machine guns (not including total conversions. I'm talking about people who want to dress the Nereverine with high tech gear and sent him out to conquer Vvardenfell.).

Well I must admit those sorts of mods really annoy the hell out of me. Mostly from a lack of thought/creativity standpoint. Mods are your chance to make ANYTHING you want and people choose to make something that someone else already has? . . . The constant requests of a new mod whenver a movie comes out becomes extrodinarily irritating. But I choose to persevere and ignore crap like that because I know there are mods that will provide a very rewarding experience that I'd otherwise miss out on.

The problem is the mainstream media in general is generally stupid. Just look at movies, music, news etc. It's probably made even dumber than it needs to be but then the general public is the middle of the bell curve, not the upper tail. With games becoming more mainstream the same proliferation of idiocy is likely to happen/is happening. It's going to be the case where one has to wade through filth to find something remotely interesting.

But, among all the master chief, soul calibur and zelda mods was a mod with a puzzle that used the pythagorean theorem (among all the other amazingly good things in it)which really made me smile.

Oblivion looks to be dumbed down from Morrowind (which is saying something since MW was dumbed down from Daggerfall), it's depressing but it will proably be bourne out when the game is released. Now the CS could potentially be used to "fix" a lot of what's wrong with Oblivion and used to make it considerably "smarter" in a lot of ways. However the potential for rewarding Bethesda for producing substandard content doesn't sit well. But yet if they recognize that the CS is providing them with revenue (I think they're already aware to some extent) then perhaps they'll continue to make a more powerful CS which means better and higher quality mods could be made. But if the game itself continues to get dumber and dumber modders will be forced to put back more and more of what were standard features in a previous game - quite a depressing prospect, which is already looming in Oblivion. (TESV - no dialogue options at all)

I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll buy Oblivion or not, I'd like to see how good/bad it will actually be. If I do buy it , It'll be for the CS/mods primarily. It just makes me extrordinarily angry to think of having to fix a game before I even play it. I was only in that situation in MW AFTER I'd already been annoyed by the "features".

-S

 

[Drakron]

Actually I was around the early stages of KotOR modding and the amount of mods that were creating overpowerful items lacking any originality made me quit going there.

The problem is for every mod that tries to "fix" Oblivion we likely get 10 mods of a "armor of godhood" and "sword of instant slaying +11!!one".

 

[Data4]

(snipped for space)

-S

I'm glad there are mods that do raise the bar in terms of intellectual stimulus, but what does that say? Here again, we have the argument of whether it's fair to a community to have to spend the money for the game, and then spend the time to mod it to a level that it should have been at release.

Not that some modders don't enjoy the challenge of making the game better in their eyes, but it's a pretty big cop-out on the part of Bethesda if they leave it up to the community to make the game we want. It's almost like going to a movie, paying to get in, and getting a notebook and pen at the box office and being told "Write what you want to see."

I already know I'm getting Oblivion. I'll probably wait for the first reviews to come out, so I'll know WHEN to get it. ($60 at release versus $20 in the bargain bin 2 months later). The few miracleworkers in the modding community ARE the only saving grace, which by admission, makes me a sort of sellout, but they are the reason Bethesda CAN make Oblivion in the first place.

-D4

 

[franc kaos]

I think the problem is that mod kits have become a crutch for developers. They include them not because it gives users a way to create their own cool stuff within the confines of the world presented in the game, but more because they can leave a bunch of stuff out and rely on the pre-existing fan base to include that for them. There's also expansion packs, which allow the developers of a game to leave out a good chunk of stuff and just include it later on FOR MORE MONEY!

Then again, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me why the Nine Divines guild isn't in Oblivion considering the story. In fact, I'm surprised the Nine Divines isn't in the game as a mostly mandatory thing you need to join. It'd be like making a game about the Anti-Christ and demonic possession and not including the Catholic church.

I agree about the mod fixing part, it happened with Vampire: Bloodlines, and even Planescape: Torment has a fan made patch. I think it's the future of gaming tho, but in a way, it allows the creativity of what used to be bedroom coders to not have to create an engine but to do some really original stuff. MW got new animations, a reworked skill system, almost standalone games of professional quality, new races and a new combat system.

As for offering Tamrielic holidays as a (possibly) payable mod that does induce some nausea, esp. when the game got pushed back 4 or 5 months.

As for the Nine Divines, is it possible they're such an integral part of the main storyline it would break* the game to include them as a joinable faction?

*Break seems to be Bethesda's favourite reason for not including so many things.

Quick Question
Mods fixing Oblivion: The codex has some intelligent modders over here, so, from what you know of the CS (I'm a complete programming dead brain - the only thing I learnt to do in C+ was print to the screen 'Hello world.' before I went into meltdown; arrays, maths, logic - get the fuck behind me satan). I seem to recall a mod for MW that introduced a random dungeon creator, so how possible would it be to create a quest generator, or would that have to be built into the game engine? (I'm thinking of that combat mod that used an external program).

 

[galsiah]

...I seem to recall a mod for MW that introduced a random dungeon creator, so how possible would it be to create a quest generator, or would that have to be built into the game engine? (I'm thinking of that combat mod that used an external program).

A random dungeon will almost certainly be do-able (though it might be very hard, it might not have a large set of possibilities, and there might be side effects). Truly random quests would not need to be hard coded, but they would require pointers to be practical (I'm 99% sure there will be no pointers in Oblivion's scripting language). Without pointers it still might be possible, but one hell of a lot harder. Don't go holding your breath.

With pointers you can write scripts based on talking to NPC X, finding object Y, going to location Z... Then pass in the identities of the NPC / object / location, to create a new quest. Without pointers you need to write specific code to deal with each situation. The same things are possible, so long as you have access to all the NPCs / objects / locations etc., it just takes a stupid amount of work.

For example with pointers:

gameObject *weapon

if ( global_RandomQuestStatus != 30 )
    return
endif

Player->Equip *weapon

Without:

short weaponCode

if ( global_RandomQuestStatus != 30 )
    return
endif

if ( weaponCode == 1 )
     Player->Equip iron_hand_axe
elseif ( weaponCode == 2 )
     Player->Equip steel_hand_axe
elseif ( weaponCode == 3 )
     Player->Equip ebony_hand_axe
elseif ( weaponCode == 4 )
     Player->Equip iron_mace
...
;insert laborious repetition here
...
elseif ( weaponCode == 20 )
     Player->Equip ebony_longsword
endif

With pointers you'd have to write out a list like this once - for the input to the script(s). Without pointers you need to write it out whenever you do anything with the weapon. Extend this to every random NPC, every other random item, every random location, and things quickly become exceedingly annoying.
You end up writing a whole load of almost identical code for each slightly different situation. Then when anything changes, or you find a bug, you need to fix it in 50 places, rather than one place. For anything but the most simple script, this makes things exceedingly hard. I had to do it for my pool table mod for Morrowind, writing 15 almost identical scripts for 15 balls, then changing them over and over. Thankfully though, I was well prepared, since my previous mod suffered from a lack of function pointers - meaning that the same thing needed to be done 27 times, over and over...

A random quest mod with enough possibilities to feel truly random would require similar code to be repeated (then changed, then changed again...) many more than 27 times. If anyone does do it, they'll be in need of a stiff drink afterwards.

 

[VenomByte]

Do we get String variables this time round?

On pointers/objects, I seem to remember some comment (possibly MSFD) mentioning that the Oblivion CS uses a heavily object-based approach to items and their properties. Whether this extends to being able to reference thos objects and pass them around is another matter.

What worries me is that when this was once brought up in the TES forums, dev replies were along the lines of 'I don't quite get what you mean' or 'why would you want to do that?'

 

[Sabregirl]

Do we get String variables this time round?

I'm for sure that's a no but I thought I remembered hearing something about random quests being implemented somewhere in Oblivion, althought not at all widespread. After becoming guild master or something or possibly as a result of radiant AI.

-S

 

[Data4]

Regarding the random dungeon generator, I believe it's called mGen or something to that effect. I also seem to remember some "epic", Daggerfall-style multilevelled dungeons for Morrowind that were made with it over at the Morrowind Summit. I haven't played the game in so long, I couldn't say how good they are.

Also, and a little off that topic, there's a guy doing some kind of Ultima TC and he made his own land generator (don't know if it features soil erosion, though ) called Littoral. I can't remember his website, though. Seemed to work reasonably well, based what he's mentioned.

-D4

 

[Balor]

Well, not string vars, but I recall devs describing something that vaguely looked like pointers, in effect.
*hmms*
Damn, I wish Bethesda would release CS before the game!
W/o any models, and a simple 'testing' esm (or equivalent).
We'd have a few month to prepare and meet Oblivion 'fully armed'.
Perhaps we'd make a few suggestions how to impove it, and it may get implemented...
...
What? Where are you taking me? A why the robe with long sleeves...

 

[Twinfalls]

easy now - this won't... hurt.... a bit.....

 

[Roqua]

If I ever bought oblivion it would be because of the bethesda guy that posts here. He impressed me enough to want to reward his professionalism and ability to put up with retards with a smile. But chances are I wouldn't like it or play it if I got it. Why? I like rpgs. I like thinking games. I like strategy. I don't like mindlessly clicking over and over.

OP, why should people support a game they don't agree with? I want commercial rpgs to be a failure. I want 3 dorks in a basement making my games made for me. I don't see BG as the 90's boom. I see it as the 90's death knell. 90-95 was much, much better for good rpgs. My kind of rpgs. That was the boom. And that is the game play I want, and only independent developers will give me that.

I don't hate bethesda, and I agree with their streamlining and emphasis on fancy graphics and stupid shit. They are doing what I would be doing if I were in charge, except I would dumb it down even more.

Look at the reviews for Hammer and Sickle. People just don’t get it. And they don’t want to. I’m not saying the mainstream is stupid, because there are games that I just can’t play, like Silent Hunter 3. But I get it. I understand why someone would love that game and all of its complexity. My brother-in-law loves fps’s that are complex. Like one of the squad Rainbow Six like games. Some games are far too complex for me. If it was TB I might try and figure it out, or a real rpg.

They way I see it is if the big devs stop making fake rpgs, more indie devs will make real ones. There are so many good games being made now it is ridiculous. AoD, Ashes, the game that was just announced, Grimore, Bourgeoisie, etc. I still have a bunch of good TB games to get (like the one for GBA that the x-com devs made). I just rented and enjoyed the new Fire Emblem for GC. I still need to get Hammer and Sickle, and Night Watch. Space Rangers 2 sounds like its pretty good from what everyone is saying (but I don’t trust everyone so…).

So, out of greed, I want the big devs to stop making their “rpgs” altogether so I can get more of the rpgs I want. And I also don’t see it as rpg fans vs. everyone. I see it as the few real rpg fans vs. everyone. There is no difference between most “rpgs” now and FPSs. Same thing, but one has a little more talking. They value the same things; graphics above all, then twitch fun. Twitch is the antithesis of one of the core values of being able to play a role. And graphics are just wasted resources that could go into making a better game. I prefer pearls that look like shit over shit that shines like pearls.

And I also have a solid criteria for what makes an rpg an rpg. And I have no problem differentiating a good action game with some rpg elements from actual rpgs. I like Arx Fatalis, but it wasn’t even close to an rpg. I loved Silent Storm (especially with Sentinels), it is a great TBS, but isn’t an rpg. Etc.

Doesn’t this make more sense: value what you like, and buy what you value. That’s a lot better than buying what you think you should to make a united front and keep fake rpgs being made. Why not be your own man and make your own decisions, and let others make theirs? In the case of Oblivion I like the bethesda guy because I value his professionalism, but do I value it enough waste my money on a shit fake rpg that chances are I won’t like even a little? No. Just like if there was an ugly prostitute with a heart of gold. I might enjoy her company and value her personality; I would even want to fuck her for free (as I would everything that was born and stayed a girl and looks girl-like still). But I don’t value personality enough to give her my money to let me stick my dick in her ugly ass. I wish my wife let me get prostitutes. Why can’t she see sex is just assisted masturbation? It’s like jerking-off with fancy Vaseline. No one wants to eat the same sandwich everyday. Why can’t I make love to her (with feelings and all that shit) and fuck prostitutes? Sex is a meaningful act to her that involves emotions beyond “it will feel really good to slide my cock into something hot and different.” Girls are so gay about that shit. Sex is more than sex to my wife so her doing that is ridiculous. But to me it would just be a business transaction that results in good.

 

[Roqua]

double post

 

[Twinfalls]

"Cortez The Killer"

He came dancing across the water
With his galleons and guns
Looking for the new world
In that palace in the sun.

On the shore lay Montezuma
With his coca leaves and pearls
In his halls he often wondered
With the secrets of the worlds.

And his subjects
gathered 'round him
Like the leaves around a tree
In their clothes of many colors
For the angry gods to see.

And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood
straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on.

Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones.

They carried them
to the flatlands
And they died along the way
But they built up
with their bare hands
What we still can't do today.

And I know she's living there
And she loves me to this day
I still can't remember when
Or how I lost my way.

He came dancing across the water
Cortez, Cortez
What a killer.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Neil Young is an idiot. Or at least he was when he wrote that song. The Aztecs knew war all fucking right.

 

[Chefe]

Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones.

In what, Bizarro World?

The Aztecs were the most bloodthirsty of the South American peoples. That's why surrounding tribes allied with Cortez to kill them off.

 

[Jason]

Who cares? Cortez The Killer is still a badass song, especially live.

 

[galsiah]

On pointers/objects, I seem to remember some comment (possibly MSFD) mentioning that the Oblivion CS uses a heavily object-based approach to items and their properties. Whether this extends to being able to reference thos objects and pass them around is another matter.

I'd guess that references might be possible, but pointers won't. Dealing with non-unique objects through scripts by using a reference to them doesn't seem too out there.
What is necessary for random quests etc., would be non-const pointers / object variables. I very much doubt there will be such a thing. Clearly I hope to be wrong.

What worries me is that when this was once brought up in the TES forums, dev replies were along the lines of 'I don't quite get what you mean' or 'why would you want to do that?'

If the devs concerned weren't programmers, then I can understand that. Until you think about how you'd go about implementing a system, it can seem (to the man in the street) that pointers don't get you anything. If the devs were programmers, .

 

[Shagnak]

<snip>

Heh. You know, that was a pretty good post.

But I just knew that it would have to mention your cock or dirty sex or something by the end of it :D

 

[Chefe]

Who cares? Cortez The Killer is still a badass song, especially live.

I care, and I'll be damned if I'm just going to set here and not do anything about it.

 

[Shagnak]

I just rented and enjoyed the new Fire Emblem for GC.

In the last few threads about console games, a few people have been saying good things about this one.
Fully TB, tactical, etc, right?

I'm unlikely to get it for GC, but I know I can get some ROMs for the GBA version(s).
Does anyone know how the GBA version compares?
Is it essentially the same game? Or are there massive compromises (aside from gfx)?

 

[Chefe]

You have to sit through anime.